Holy Bible Scriptures: Hard to understand or easy to understand?

If one part of the Holy Bible it considered in error then all of it is erred!

Yes intercession is one big thing I have issue with. I do know the difference between intercession and mediation as well as you believe that Saints of the past can intercede if asked to. Where in the Bible do you base this this? Surely not Psalms or Ephesians.

 

Saints and angels intercede for us.
Jeremiah 15:1, Zechariah 1:12, tobit 12:12, 15, 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, Luke 15:10, 1 Corinthians 4:9, Hebrews 12:1, Revelation 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 8:3-4

Straightforward deductions from the above passages and others lead to the following argument in favour of asking saints and angels to intercede for us:

We ought to pray for each other (much biblical proof).

The intercessory prayer of a righteous man has great power in it its effects (James 5:16-18 )

Dead saints are more alive than we ourselves are (e.g., Matt. 22:32, Luke 20:37-38 ).

Dead saints are aware what happensd on earth (Heb. 12:1 etc.), and indeed, are portrayed as praying for us in heaven (Rev. 6:9-10)

Dead saints are exceptionally, if not wholly, righteous and holy, since they have been delivered from sin and are present with God (Rev. 21:27, 22:14).

Therefore it is perfectly sensible, permissible and wise to ask them to pray on our behalf to God.

Most of praying for the dead, and asking for intercession from the angels and saints is contained in the book of Maccabees. Which is one of the books left out from the Protestant Bible.

If you would ask a neighbour or friend to pray for you why would you not ask a saint?. We know they have a special bond with God and have led exceptional lives. These are the people we should ask to pray for us, as well as our family and friends.

 

So you see this as intercession at the time of Jeremiah? Did they not stand before the creator in their lives just as Jeremiah?

10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

11 And they answered the angel of the Lord that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

12 Then the angel of the Lord answered and said, O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

13 And the Lord answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words.

14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy.

Satan tried to become God and was cast out. God is Jealous and would you pray to an ANgel? Were the angels being prayed to?

Can you present something in context where God or Jesus has told us to pray for intercession from the dead? Don't tell me the only one book that has this in it is Catholic.

Give me meat that can not so easily be dismissed with the Book itself.

 

First of praying to a siant is not the same as worshipping a saint.
Many Protestants pray to dead relatives, when they go to the graveside of a relative they pray to them do they not?.
It is only a form of communicating. Protestants ask one another to pray for them, so why not ask a saint to pray for you. Intercessory prayers are commonly spoken of in the Bible.
Lets say you are at a dead relatives graveside what is it exactly you do there?. Do you pray to them or not?. If you do then what is the problem with praying to saints.
There is loads of examples of people communicating with angels in the Bible. There is also loads of examples of Jesus speaking of the God of Abraham and Jacob, calling them our fathers and such though they had long past.
As I have stated before the Catholic Church is not based on Sola Scriptura like Protestant churches the Catholic Church had these beliefs before ever there was a Bible. Those who compiled the Bible accepted these beliefs so why do Protestants not accept them?.

 

Give me meat that can not so easily be dismissed with the Book itself.

I ask that my loved ones that have passed... I ask this of the lord; I do not try to let the dead intercede.

John 14:1-9
King James Version (KJV)
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

 

Catholics say that a saint has more 'power' with God so they ask the saint to pray to God on their behalf but there are a lot of catholics that don't have that right and they pray TO the saint. That is not biblical. Actually, asking someone dead to pray for you is not biblical.

 

Exactly! I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So if that is the case their prayers to the Saints actually show a lack of faith in Christ who is the great mediator and intercessor.

In Jesus; name AMEN.

And how should We pray? Our father who art in Heaven...

Now some of the Hail mary full of grace is more of a praise item and I don't really feel that they are asking intercession from the dead.

And prayer to Angels for intercession? Angels are powerful creatures but the Spirit of man is above them. Why ask them to intercede?

 

This is correct^^^

the Rosary is a form of witchcraft.

 

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:



Nowhere ^in this does GOD tell us to ask a Priest or a Pope for what you need. He said ASK HIM. That means directly.

 

I was speaking only of the prayer. I was not talking about the actually act and traditions. The Catholics do have a history of praise prayers.

 

First of all, God didn't write the bible, men that have the God gene wrote the bible. Second of all, no one can comprehend God, they can only have their perceptions. It's like a bunch of people witnessing a car crash. Every witness perceives the crash from their point of observation. They only have their perspective, not from the others point of observation. So when anyone reads any bible, they only have their perception of their own observation. But most observations are tainted by religious dogma. Those without the God gene are like a blind man at the crash scene, unable to be a witness.

 

maybe you could translate the nonsensically stuff for us then, you can be our Seer stone


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This. pretty much.

 

The Bible, first and foremost was not written for everybody. it was written about and for a specific people, the Israelites.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Not hard to understand at all.

 

If you read the letters of St.Ignatius of Antioch you will see that back then thye prayed to the dead and asked for intercession. And it works both ways you can pray for the dead. St.Ignatius is the oldest writtings we have concerning Christianity, dating from in around 100AD. The letters also show that even then there was a heirarchy and an established institution the Church was, not as some Protestants would claim the institution of the Church was only established after the time of Constantine. I suggest every protestant read them there is also stuff in the letters concerning purgatory. Another thing Protestants constantly accuse Catholics of simply making things up, this is not true. If anything it is quite the opposite, it was Protestants who decided to remove the books form the Bible without good cause. It was protestants who decided to reject the true presence of Jesus in the eucharist. It was Protestants who decided to reject the existence of purgatory. It was Protestants who decided to reject honouring the saints and Mary. All these things were believed and accepted before the reformation the earliest Christians those who were close to times of Christ, some who even knew the last of the apostles accepted these beliefs, yet Protestants reject them simply because they do not fit with their own personal theology. Ever since the reformation Protestantism has fractured has no real foundation. Each person becomes their own Pope if it does not fit with their own personal view they reject it. If someone does not like the teachings of their church they establish their own or find one that best suits their own personal theology. Even the fact that Protestants believe in Sola Scriptura which is not Biblical at all is so contradictory, they have no reason to believe the Bible to be sole authority, and no reason to believe anyone can interpret it as they see fit. The idea of Sola Scriptura comes from Martin Luther who I believe was a good man with good intentions, though huffy when the Church rejected some of his theology he stormed of and said all anyone needed for salvation was the Bible. That is were the notion of Sola Scriptura arose. however if the bible is infallible which of course it is. Then that would mean those who composed the books were infallible in their writtings, it would also mean that the Church was infallible in deciding which books should went into making the Bible. However Protestants claim the Church is not infallible and no man can be infallible, if that were the case then the books in the Bible could be in error. Protestants refuse to acknowledge this contradiction.

 

And Paul rebuked many of the early churches for their practices.

 

That partly true....but even they did not understand God's word with the exception of a few. But the whole truth is God's true chosen people is God’s Church.....they are the ones that the Bible was really meant for.

 

Exactly those who were not in accordance with THE Church were rebuked. Before the Protestant reformation in the earlier Christian period there was gnostics and all sorts of heresies. How were these heresies resolved, they were resolved through the Church. The Church decided what was dogma and what was not, now Protestants are behaving the same as those earlier heretics by ignoring the teachings of the Church and coming to their own conclusions.

St. Ignatius of Antioch came after St.Paul. However if you read any of the early Church fathers writtings such as that of Origen, Irenaeus and Polycarp etc, etc. They all accepted the authority of the Church, they all believe in the same dogmas the Church has today. Protestantism can only go back to the 1500s, also the dogmas Protestants reject were accepted by all, it was not until after the reformation did people decide we no longer need the sacrament of reconcilation, we no longer believe in the true presence in the Eucharist, there is no such thing as Purgatory, etc, etc. They have no rational reason for rejecting these beliefs except it is there own personal belief they are wrong. They have no rational reason to accept the Bible as their sole authority, even the Bible itself states it is not the sole authority. The Bible itself also warns of self interpretation. The Protestant argument is circular and contradictory. If the Bible is infallible which I believe it is, then those who copmposed the boooks that went into the bible were infallible in their writtings, it would also mean that the Church was infallible in it's choices of which books go to make the Bible. Protestants claim no one can be infallible teaching doctrine, yet the Bible quite clearly shows many examples of when God gave certain people authority and spoke through them. So either people can be infallible and God's grace works through them or they cannot. If the apostles after the death of Jesus were not infallible then they could have taught error. The people who composed the Bible could have errored in their writtings, the Churhc could have errored in it's decision in which books should go toward making the Bible, and therefore Christianity is nothing but a botch of mixed up ideas and its all a complete guessing game. Or the other way would be the more logical way is that Jesus granted authority to the apostles he left someone to be the head of His Church and granted them the grace of passing on the faith in truth.

 

Paul rebuke them because they were doing things that they should not be doing but it does not make sense say the Church was not in accordance with the Church. It would be like me rebuking myself because I am going against myself.

 

Explain to me why the 'Catholic' deemed it necessary to move pagan rituals into the main stream so that they could bring more into the flock. Explain to me why the corrupt Popes of the middle ages led mass murders for money and power. Explain to me why Luther was wrong. Hell I can apply most of the things luther spoke of to most modern protestants but I know they apply to most aspects of your faith. Christ and Paul would rebuke most Churches and the Catholic Church is no exception.

 

What are you talking about?.
The apostles were the heirarchy of the Church, Jesus gave them authority. People were going against their teachings, so St. Paul rebuked them. In the same way Protestants now are going against the authority of the true Church. They are doing things they are not supposed to.

 

Once again I would have to ask for examples of these pagan rituals, in order to defend the Churches position on them. No one is denying there was and still is people within the Catholic Church who are extremely corrupt. There has been many bad Popes. However the teachings and doctrines of the Church are perfect and have always been perfect and always will be perfect. Luther was wrong because he decided to go by his own authority and make his own theology. He removed 7 books from the Bible and wanted more removed. Tell me why do you think Christ and Paul would rebuke the Catholic Church?.
Tell me then what is the true Church?.

 

Your pride and arrogance is that of your faith and is an abomination to the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

 

I do not need to go into the details of this because you are willfully blind in your faith to your Church and only follow what they tell you to. Your king try to box God up and use Him as a tool.

The true Church is in the heart of every man who truly accepts Christ into his heart unconditionally. Going to Church, getting baptized and claiming you have accepted Christ is not being saved. Repent is an action verb.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Your faith and your Church have a weak foundation.

 

There is no hierarchy in the true Church......

Matthew 23:8 (ASV)
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren.

Matthew 20:25-28 (KJV)
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


No one in God's Church is anybody lord, master or boss that they are obligated to treat them as such......all are the same but have different positions none is in a superior position or inferior position. So I can correct a pastor when he errs just as much as he can I.....I have corrected or pointed out where they have erred in scripture. Jesus has give all of His people authority and not just some. Going against the Catholic Church is not the same thing as going against the Bible and consider that the vast majority of people in those Churches were never in the Catholic Church.