How pure are the Jews? Does 65% 'Judean' sound about right?

The 2000 year old argument might have been important at some point, but it no longer matters.
You characterize the establishment of Israel as territory theft. I don't characterize it as such. True it's an artifact of the dying gasps of colonialism but that is history and also no longer relevant. I hate to say it but today, its "facts on the ground" and the facts on the ground are such that Israel exists.

Neo-zionists can whinge all they want about biblical links, but it isn't relevant to the matter of the legitimate existence of the sovereign nation of Israel in the 21st century.

Israel is acknowledged and recognized as a sovereign state by the international community at large. You seemed to think that Palestine attaining "observer nation" status was a big deal despite its own reneging of responsibilities. Of course there are those that believe that the Palestinians are pure and whatever transgressions they themselves have committed are entirely the fault of the jews.

But Israel hasn't "completely reneged" on its responsibilities, unless you know of some adjudication of same, in which case I would appreciate any links you might have. If Israel has reneged on its responsibilities, then why hasn't it been censured? or suspended? or booted out of the UN?

I agree that the palestinians should achieve their nationalist dreams within the WB/Gaza, although I have severe doubts about the viability of a single nation consisting of two discrete geographical populations neither of which have any control of the physical links between them.



Nope.

Are you suggesting that thousands of rockets have not rained down on Israel? Are you also suggesting that military retaliation of such actions is unwarranted?

so only hamas and the PLO can conduct asymetrical warfare?

Funny that palestinians should be immune from consequences of their decisions. I believe Fatah had a lot more to do with what happened after the election than Israel did.

what "official" eye witness reports?

what are you talking about 20,000 evil killings? And regardless of any single motivation for the establishment of the Islamist group the fact that they excplicitly endorse genocide and ethnic cleansing themselves makes them evil.

don't mischaracterize. the issue of palestinian immigrants was the fact that there were a great many arab immigrants in the first part of the 20th century in part to counter jewish immigration. If there is any jew that claims that the palestinians were all immigrants, then they are seriously ignorant or just terrible liars.

No, that is a cop out.
I made the statement that the preponderance of criticism and whinging is anti-zionists not pro palestinian. There's a lot of whinging about how evil the Israelis/jews are.

But there isn't much whinging on the part of anti-zionists about how politically incompetent and fractured the palestinians are and how they have persistently failed in advancing their nationalist dreams. For decades they were merely pawns of their arab brethren. Then they were under the weaselly terrorist leadership of Arafat (granted he was a genius). And then they totally blew their very hard won (their single true advancement) self governance. But for some reason, its all Israel's fault.

A better reason for what? what question have I failed to answer and what questions have I kept avoiding.
Be specific and I will be glad to accomodate you.

 

You tried to "show" the same rubbish about Palestinian migrations by misquoting the Survey for Palestine and by fiddling the post-WW1 figures for Arab population growth and were caught out.

I dare you to show us that Majdal/Ashkelon was a town whose Arab Palestinians were dominantly migrant workers in 1948, who were properly required to leave by the Israelis when their contracts ran out. Once you have done that, you can move on to Ramla and try to do the same.

Have a great time. I will be watching this thread.

 

I absolutely agree. Please inform HBendor of that obvious fact.

Theft is theft, no matter how you try to gloss the turd.

Regarding 1947/48 being facts-on-the-ground, I have often written my agreement with the fact that we cannot turn back the clock to 27 November 1947. However, it was not my 5000+ heritage that was stolen from me, so my opinion on this is of little value, as is yours, compared to those who live in slums and look across the border at their ancestral homes and lands.

What I have also written is that this "acceptance" does not mean that the Palestinians were not royally screwed by the British, and then by the UN and then by the Israelis. Any further screwing would be a gross rubbing of salt into the wounds.

And then they were screwed again in 1948 to 1950
And they were screwed again in 1967
And they were screwed again, almost every year, starting in 1969
And they were screwed yesterday.

And the West closes its eyes, opens its mouth, drinks, and claims that they are the "bad guys"

 

Agreed fully

You wriggled around my point that Israel was recognised in the fullest degree by its entrance into the UN. That entrance was subject to conditions that Israrel accepted. Then she completely ignorred them. Am I correct?

That is yet another case of the Palestinians getting screwed again in 1949.

Jonsa, you cannot seriously pretend that all this screwing is now irrelevant. That would be like telling a Jew that they have no right to claim a link to the "Promised Land". In fact it is even worse because new international laws have been in place, most notable of which is the UN Charter which espouses the right of indigenous peoples to self-government.

Are you joking, Jonsa, or are you just ignorant of that piece of critical history?

http://www.representativepress.org/IsraelViolatesResolution.html

UN General Assembly resolution 194 contained, amongst others:

That was the main requirement for Israel's entry into the UN. Israel agreed to abide. And you claim that she hasn't reneged?
You ask why she has been allowed to be in constant violation of her own entry agreement?
I presume that you are once again joking. No?

It is called the US veto. You know, the acts that the bearded nutter referred to in his justification for flying into tall buildings. Eban: "There is no such thing as a free lunch".

 

Can I take it that by that you mean that the "settlements" are illegal, in line with the rest of the non-Zionist planet?

If so, I agree with you 100% on the viability. But who am I to suggest that Gaza becomes part of Egypt and that the West Bank joins the Bedouin-dominated country of Jordan?

 

Of course not!! Rockets have rained down. The question is WHY. That has been debated elsewhere. For detail I refer you to - http://www.politicalforum.com/middle-east/313440-who-did-invading-borat.html (click)

I notice that in that thread you did not refute the facts that:

1) It was Israel's airstikes on Lebanon that caused the PLO to retaliate by firing rockets on northern Israel in 1981 / 1982. Those are bankable facts fully supported by the eye-witness UNIFIL reports. The PLO was retaliating and not Israel as you claim.

2) That the utterly illegal Israeli obstruction of the implementation of the democratic Palestinian 2006 elections did NOT result in rocket fire on Israel. Hamas did NOT retaliate for this Act of War by Israel.

3) After Hamas forced Fatah to hand over power in Gaza, it was Israel who again started conflict by illegally instituting an economic embargo on Gaza. This second hugely aggressive Israeli act still did not result in Hamas attacks on Israel. I call that amazing restraint.

4) Only when the embargo was tightened and the effects became severe on Gaza did Hamas start to retaliate with rocket fire. Notice who is dealing out the aggressive acts and who is doing the retaliating, Jonsa.

5) Then a ceasefire stopped the attacks in June 2008. Hamas ceased all rocket attacks and bent over backwards to stop rogue elements (mainly Fatah) from continuing to fire rockets at Israel - admitted to by senior Israeli officials. But at exactly the same time, while Hamas has achieved 98% compliance, Israel barely reached 20% compliance with her obligations. Who was the bad guy, Jonsa. Who was screwing with peace?

6) Then on 4 November Israel invaded Gaza. This time Hamas did retaliate and "rained rockets down on Israel". And then Israel slaughtered 1400+ Gazans.

And you try to make out that it was the Palestinians who were "raining rockets doen on Israel" and it was Israel who was only retaliating?

And then we need to perform the same tests on 2012.

But why don't you rather help this thread to remain on-topic, and make your claims on the "Who did the invading, Borat" thread. In fact I will post these last two posts there.

So yes, I have solid proof that in most cases it is a case of "Israel attacks and the Palestinians retaliate".

How does this verifiable version of history differ from the classic Zionist hasbara that you have just promoted, Jonsa?

-----------------------------------

Posted to the following thread so as not to hijack this one

 

2000 years ago?????????? Well Islam was created in the seventh Century and this lowly cult led by a thief, a murderer, and a pedophile, yet millions kiss the ground in his name... that gives all an idea what Islam and its followers are made of.

I disagree the so called Palestinians have been done by their own people!

 

what do you mean 5000+ heritage?

Sorry, but from 1948 to 67 the Palestinians were represented by the Arab High Council, and were occupied by Jordan and Egypt respectively. Their occupiers screwed them rather royally as well. After that, there is a litany of blunders and selfish maneouvers on the part of their leadership.

I don't claim they are the bad guys. I claim that they and their previous masters have placed the destruction of Israel over the establishment of a viable nation state called palestine. I am totally unaware of any conquered and occupied people in history dictating terms to end the occupation. That is rather telling as to where the palestinian priorities apparently lie.

 

I do not deny your 35% non-Levantine origin, however, this does not demonstrate that Khazars make up the majority of that 35%, they may form a part of it but genetic admixture through random genetic drift amongst any number of the host populations must also be taken into account.

Actually it's based primarily on Ostrer, Harry. Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People, Oxford University Press, 2012 http://books.google.com.au/books?id=RayZR3V1SFwC&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false

As well as:

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes

M. F. Hammer*†‡,
A. J. Redd*†,
E. T. Wood*†,
M. R. Bonner*,
H. Jarjanazi*,
T. Karafet*,
S. Santachiara-Benerecetti¶,
A. Oppenheim‖,
M. A. Jobling**,
T. Jenkins‡‡,
H. Ostrer††, and
B. Bonné-Tamir§

Author Affiliations

*Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ 85721; ¶Department of Genetics, Università degli Studi di Pavia, Pavia 27100, Italy; ‖Hadassah Medical School, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem 91120, Israel; **Department of Genetics, University of Leicester, Leicester LE1 7RH, England; ‡‡SAMIR, University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg 2000, South Africa; ††Department of Pediatrics, New York University Medical Center, New York, NY 10016; and §Department of Human Genetics, Sackler School of Medicine, Ramat Aviv 69978, Israel

Communicated by Arno G. Motulsky, University of Washington, Seattle, WA (received for review November 17, 1999)

http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769.full

And:

1. Atzmon G, Hao L, Pe'er I, Velez C, Pearlman A, Palamara PF, Morrow B, Friedman E, Oddoux C, Burns E, Ostrer H. "Abraham's children in the genome era: major Jewish diaspora populations comprise distinct genetic clusters with shared Middle Eastern ancestry." American Journal of Human Genetics 2010;86(6):850-859, doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2010.04.015.
1) Department of Pediatrics, Human Genetics Program, NYU Langone Medical Center, New York, NY; 2) Department of Medicine, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY; 3) Department of Computer Science, Columbia University, New York, NY; 4) Department of Genetics, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY; 5) Chaim Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, Israel; 6) Center for Genome Informatics, New Jersey Medical School, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Newark, NJ.

http://www.mashadi.info/pdf/jewishgenetics.pdf

And:

2. Behar DM, Metspalu M, Metspalu E, Rosset S, Parik J, Rootsi S, Chaubey G, Kutuev I, Yudkovsky G, Khusnutdinova EK, Balanovsky O, Semino O, Pereira L, Comas D, Gurwitz D, Bonne-Tamir B, Parfitt T, Hammer MF, Skorecki K, Villems R. "The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people." Nature 2010;466:238-242, doi:10.1038/nature09103. The Estonian Biocentre and Department of Evolutionary Biology, University of Tartu, Tartu 51010, Estonia, the Institute of Biochemistry and Genetics, Ufa Research Center, Russian Academy of Sciences, Ufa 450054, Russia, the Research Centre for Medical Genetics, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Moscow 115478, Russia, the Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Università di Pavia, Pavia 27100, Italy, the Instituto de Patologia e Imunologia Molecular da Universidade do Porto (IPATIMUP), Porto 4200-465, Portugal, the Faculdade de Medicina, Universidade do Porto, Porto 4200-319, Portugal, the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF), CEXS-UPF-PRBB and CIBER de Epidemiología y Salud Pública, Barcelona 08003, Spain, the Department of the Languages and Cultures of the Near and Middle East, Faculty of Languages and Cultures, School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), University of London, London WC1H 0XG, UK, the ARL Division of Biotechnology, University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona 85721, USA, the Molecular Medicine Laboratory, Rambam Health Care Campus, Haifa 31096, Israel, Department of Human Molecular Genetics and Biochemistry, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv 69978, Israel, the Department of Statistics and Operations Research, School of Mathematical Sciences, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv 69978, Israel, the Rappaport Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute, Technion – Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa 31096, Israel

 

Israel did not completely ignore the conditions of UNGA194 when UNGA 273 was accepted and Israel took its place in the UN.
This is yet another issue of partisan interpretation.

Actually I beleive that most of the past "screwing" should be irrelevant to the goals and aims of palestinian nationalism. I agree wholeheartedly that the Palestinians have the right to self governance, but that self governance is derived from the establishment of a palestinian nation state, which requires a peace agreement with Israel.

Thanks, I am totally aware of the content of UNGA 273 and 194. Once again, it is far beyond our legal expertise to determine who is right or wrong, since you are aware that Israel interprets Article 11 substantively differently than the palestinians. Resolution of the right of return issue was part and parcel of a comprehensive peace agreement that was to be facilitatated by the Conciliation Committee.

UN General Assembly resolution 194 contained article 11. But Israel et.al. interprets that article differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return#Objectors.27_viewpoints

Exactly what are you basing your claim that article 11 was the main requirement for Israel's entry? And perhaps you can also identify when return was "practicable"?

IMO "return" is not going happen in any fashion other than as token face saving, possibly offset by some form of financial compensation.

 

absolutely.

I certainly am not suggesting that divvying up the territories is any kind of solution.
I happen to believe that the palestinians should be willing to trade some land for a guaranteed physical link.
I don't know exactly what form that would take, perhaps a corridor like west germany had to west berlin or some such. Granted it can be cut off at any time, but peace would preclude such an action.

 

Let me remind ALL READERS that the title of this thread is :

How pure are the Jews? Does 65% 'Judean' sound about right?

If this is not a <RACIST> statement then, What is?????????
This is bigotry in full bloom... Where are the MODS when we need them?

 

I knew you'd say that .... and again without any support.
Try refuting posts with facts. Let's start simply. For instance:

Did the Zionists plan to expel Palestinians in 1948-1950 so as to reach a "preferred" demographic ratio to Jews in early Israel?

Let us see if you can produce FACTS on the "transfer policy" of the founder Zionists

For instance, see if you can contrast Efraim Karsh of the topic of "preplanned" with the view of Rabbi Chaim Simons (both pro-expulsion)

Karsh: http://www.meforum.org/302/rewriting-israels-history

Simons: http://chaimsimons.net/transfer.html

FACTS will set you free.

 

But do you agree with Jonsa that what happened more than 2000 years ago had nothing to do with the 20thC?

 

I mean a 5000 year old link to the modern Palestinians from the original Canaanites and Sea People, through the Israelites, to the Roman Jews, to the Christians, Helenised Palestinians and Samaritans of post-Bar Kokhba, to the converters to Islam in the 6thC, to the 500 000 Muslims counted in the 1893 Ottoman summary, to the modern Palestinians.

 

Egypt did not occupy Gaza. Yes, King Husseini was greedy. He succeeded in annexing the West Bank only because he was supported by Britain.

I couldn't agree more. Good that you agree that the Palestinians were screwed time and again.

History is full of such cases. Africa alone has at least 20. Eire is another. So is Spain. One could argue that many of the ME countries are also. And we haven't even started with South America.

Indeed, the Palestinians always seem to suck the hind teet. Glad you agree. But that does not mean that 2 wrongs make a right.

 

I am stunned that you are taken aback.

Demographics, DNA and hybridisation of a people are ALL about race.
Trying to avoid "race" in such discussions is like trying to avoid "sex" when discussing where babies come from.

 

I agree.

Jonsa, please stop wriggling. Here is the essence of our discussion:

I cited a new piece of evidence written by Elhaik, re-establishing the Khazar element in the Ashkenazim blood-line. You offered the Entine piece in (supposed) rebuttal of Elhaik. I checked his sources in which he pretends to refute Elhaik (remember Erskine Childer's advice). They were circular. Yes, he quoted numerous DNA studies, but these had ZERO to do with Elhaik's recent publication. All that he offered (Entin .... not me) to cast doubt on that recent study was a piece of hearsay attributed to Prof Feldman. I searched for verification thereof and found NOTHING. I therefore discounted Entin's "rebuttal" of Elhaik.

Now you dredge up a washing list of irrelevant older references that have nothing to do with the new Khazar DNA data. Please reconsider..

 

That may well be. I clearly agreed with the "35% non-Levantine" element.

The fact that Elhaik claims that the greater part of the Ashkenazim DNA is not from the ME does zero to refute my point that the Khazar input into the Jewish bloodline has been resuscitated. I used a hypothetical "say" 20%, which gives a flavour of my +/- position on this issue.

Seems to be a reasonable conclusion for the Ashkenazim.

I agree fully.

We were only discussing the Ashkenazim.

 

I was not aware that the language you spoke showed up in your DNA.

 

Not so fast, Face, Your. Erskine Childers = need to check.

Here is the actual phrase from Behar et. al (2010) ... undoctored:

Now let us compare this to your supposed extract from Behar as provided at the start. Oh, oh!!! A problemito.

1) You misquoted Behar. Badly. You inserted &#8220;rather than Levantine&#8221;.into the published text. Now, Face, Your, that is very, very naughty.

Why is it that in trying to prove that the Palestinians are not from "the Promised Land", Zionist apologists are forced to come up with false shenanigans to do so?

So you failed utterly to make a verified difference between the (now read this carefully, OK) &#8230;. Between the Palestinian DNA and what can be estimated to be the Levantine element of the Ashkenazim DNA .... in other words, uncontaminated by the 35% Georgians, Romanians, certain southern Europeans, etc.

I have a whole series of other points which all refute your claim that the Jews are shown to be Levatine but the Palestinians are not, all derived from the Behar paper. If you satisfactorily address point 1) we can continue with the others.

 

What Karsh and Simons have to do with the Israeli government... is it your intention to muzzle free individuals to state their wish in public?

The Israeli Government decides and not you or I or any individual defaming the decision makers of the State of Israel. My friend you have stooped to the lowest level of infamy. The state of Israel is the one making decisions and no amount of defamation from you or others will tend to change things. And remember embellishing what Jonsa has just stated <Beggars are not choosers> ...

There were several Mandates : The French received the mandate for the Levant Syria Lebanon.
The British received the Mandate for Palestine (incorporating Israel of today and Jordan of today)
The British also received the Mandate for Mesopotamia (Iraq of today)

And no one until 1964 when Arafat opted for the nomenclature <Palestine> with the intention of crowning himself the head honcho of the so called Palestinians ever existed as a people nor as an independent country.

Everything went hanky dory except of course the legality of the <old land of the Jews> recognized as such to be reconstituted and is still being argued 66 years later...

In the interim 21 Arab Countries were created for <Arab self determination> and no one argued this point... but the only Jewish State of San Remo declaration assigned by the League of Nation and later confirmed by the U.N is in doubt according to the vituperative disclaimers of a few air heads here.

And I say to them you have no case here... Jordan can be a <Palestinian State> since it was surreptitiously
sliced off the Mandate for Palestine and constitute 77% of this Mandate... Israel is 23% of that same Mandate and would like to live in Peace.

 

I see

*SIGH*

 

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo YOU DO NOT, you are a dishonest advocate for the ARABS...

Bringing the pitiful JABER family here is another Paliwood... The Jaber family had overextended their claim on land that cannot be proven to be theirs PERIOD... You are deliberately defaming Israel as a <LAWLESS> country run by TYRANTS which is patently FALSE, FALSE, FALSE...

You can plant anything in empty lots... this does not mean it is yours! This is not the American cry of <young man go west> as open territory... This is the <Land of the Jews> and no one has the right to stick a claim on land that is vacant this includes Jews, Arabs, Nomad, Christians, Budhists, or Atheists... Mind you... no one had usurped the property of Jaber's parents for it must have been recognized as legal acquisition by the authorities.

 

Oh? you have evidence that suggests that the modern palestinians are descendant from the "original" canaanites?
OTOH, I do agree that the regions peoples represent a hodgepodge of genetic material from countless waves of conquerors and immigrants.