How pure are the Jews? Does 65% 'Judean' sound about right?

Well <if> Ben-Gurion used this phraseology to declare Independence who am I to disagree? hmmm
I think Ben-Gurion felt free to declare Israel's Independence based on the obstinate Arab negation of UNGA 181.

 

Yes indeed, I am the owner of 1300 books on the subject of the M.E. Palestine-Israel, so what my little finger know about the subject is far more than your nitpicking and defamation.

 

You may well ask. But you address the question to the wrong party.

Here, use this mirror.

- - - Updated - - -

But you say "181" was dead and buried.

 

Then why don't you produce facts from them instead of relying on personal invective and opinions?
Take a careful honest look at your latest post to see what I mean. It is *CLANG* empty .... no sign of even one phrase from your 1300 books.

 

Yes - its crap .

UNGA res 181 was seen by Jews as an "opportunity" to grab other peoples land . it was certainly not to the Palestinian's benefit , to be driven from their ancestral homes by Zionists thugs .

....

 

The background of Resol. 181

The United Nations Resolution 181 of 1947 offered Partition to the Jews and Arabs that would have given the Jews 3 small indefensible enclaves west of the Jordan river, the rest to the Arabs, with Jerusalem as an international city. UN 181 completely disregarded the League of Nations and US Congress legalizing the establishment of the Palestinian Mandate, authorizing the "establishment of a Jewish Homeland in &#8220;Eretz Yisrael,&#8221; including both sides of the Jordan River. In 1921 England lopped off 77% of the Jewish homeland and gave it to an upstart from the Hejaz by the name of Abdullah.

Now, the Arabs claim that Res. 181 is still valid and operational. Their proposal and wish of course is for Israel to go back to her 1948 borders, and leave the vacated area to Palestinian Arab control.

Everyone remembers that the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan of Resolution 181. They not only rejected it in diplomatic pronouncements but also proceeded to close the door on any further discussion. Their final and conclusive word was to gather the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen and to attack the fledgling State with the cry of "Yitbah al Yahud" (Slaughter the Jews).

Resolution 181 was declared null and void by the Arab nations, when Israel was declared a nation on May 14, 1948 as the Jewish State and 7 Arab armies attacked her. Were there ever a more definitive statement of intent and rejection of 181 than their military attack with the oft-stated intention to "push the Jews into the sea"?

The same nations sitting in the UN and ebbing the Arab to mischief are the same the nations that have two prejudicial agendas, with one being their xenophobic hatred of the Jews and the other pandering to Arab Oil. Putting the idea of pushing the Jews back to the 1947 borders into the minds of the Arab (which may have stared out merely as a ploy) has now taken root in their minds. It has raised their "chutzpah" level to greater expectations than are attainable. Sufficient blame to go around includes the badly drafted Oslo, Hebron and Wye.

If Israeli leaders were wise, they should have responded with "Israel is our land; Jerusalem is our capital and we will not discuss abandoning or re-partitioning with anyone." But, Israel&#8217;s Jews are always so reasonable and placate their opponents no matter how hostile.

Israel should end all discussion with a terse proclamation... Israel with Bibi at the helm will rather wait to gather her legal minds to evolve a Jewish response based upon interpretation of the language of Resolution 181. They will attempt to show that the Arabs canceled Resolution 181 verbally and by acts of war.

Israel accepted 181 but the Arabs didn&#8217;t. They attacked the nascent State of Israel, with arms and training by the British and Europeans. As the UN intended, the 1948 cease-fire lines were indefensible for Israel, resulting in 5 future wars, which miraculously gained her expanded and defensible borders. The Arabs had gambled by attacking Israel in their effort to wipeout the Jewish State - and lost!

Having lost both land and pride, the Arabs now want back what they gambled and lost. Israel paid dearly it lost 20,000 men, women and children killed, 100,000 wounded (many maimed for life) incessant terror, billions of dollars spent on the machinery of defense. That was a blood price that Israel paid which cannot be reversed.

To my estimation, Resolution # 181 is dead and to revive it is to the detriment of one party only&#8230; Israel.

 

You have repeated all of those POVs before. What you were meant to be refuting is that Ben-Gurion wasn't in la-la land when he used a dead-and-buried (according to HB) UNGA resolution to justify his declaration of independence.

Next!!

 

I honestly do not give a hoot about your reaction, what I wrote is for 'public record' and frankly you can stick to your defamatory, libellous statements and uphold your calumnious and slanderous agenda which BTW hang by a hair (De pilo pendet),

 

Classic *CLANG* empty Flamebaiting .... no positive debating content whatsoever. Violation of Forum rule 3. The Mods seem to be on vacation.

 

What????????They are on vacation??????... What a nice way to treat them hmmmmmmm.
One has to come with clean hands when asking for authoritative help...

 

Was Ben-Gurion deranged when he quoted "181" - a dead and buried resolution according to HBendor - as justification for the independence of Israel?

If so, what does that mean for the legal basis for Israel?

 

It means we know what we are doing while you have to guess.

 

Actually, a lot of them look very caucasian, especially armenian. But this isn't surprising since armenians and georgians have substantial middle eastern ancestry. Elhaik actually sabotaged himself in his study as Behar pointed out. He studied the dna of south caucasian people who have many middle eastern elements. Ashkenazi jews also look like kurds too which may explain why they have blondism and red hair. This doesn't point to a khazar origin, but a northern mesopotamian and south caucasian one. Sefaradi jews, the closest relatives of the ashkenazi jews also have high rates of red hair and blue eyes.


A 2013 study by Doron M. Behar, Mait Metspalu, Yael Baran, Naama M. Kopelman, Bayazit Yunusbayev et al using integration of genotypes on newly collected largest data set available to date (1,774 samples from 106 Jewish and non-Jewish populations) for assessment of Ashkenazi Jewish genetic origins from the regions of potential Ashkenazi ancestry(Europe, the Middle East, and the region historically associated with the Khazar Khaganate) concluded that "This most comprehensive study... does not change and in fact reinforces the conclusions of multiple past studies, including ours and those of other groups (Atzmon and others, 2010; Bauchet and others, 2007; Behar and others, 2010; Campbell and others, 2012; Guha and others, 2012; Haber and others; 2013; Henn and others, 2012; Kopelman and others, 2009; Seldin and others, 2006; Tian and others, 2008. We confirm the notion that the Ashkenazi, North African, and Sephardi Jews share substantial genetic ancestry and that they derive it from Middle Eastern and European populations, with no indication of a detectable Khazar contribution to their genetic origins."

The authors also reanalyzed the 2012 study of Eran Elhaik, and found that "The provocative assumption that Armenians and Georgians could serve as appropriate proxies for Khazar descendants is problematic for a number of reasons as the evidence for ancestry among Caucasus populations do not reflect Khazar ancestry". Also, the authors found that "Even if it were allowed that Caucasus affinities could represent Khazar ancestry, the use of the Armenians and Georgians as Khazar proxies is particularly poor, as they represent the southern part of the Caucasus region, while the Khazar Khaganate was centered in the North Caucasus and further to the north. Furthermore, among populations of the Caucasus, Armenians and Georgians are geographically the closest to the Middle East, and are therefore expected a priori to show the greatest genetic similarity to Middle Eastern populations." Concerning the similarity of South Caucasus populations to Middle Eastern groups which was observed at the level of the whole genome in one recent study (Yunusbayev and others, 2012). The authors found that "Any genetic similarity between Ashkenazi Jews and Armenians and Georgians might merely reflect a common shared Middle Eastern ancestry component, actually providing further support to a Middle Eastern origin of Ashkenazi Jews, rather than a hint for a Khazar origin". The authors claimed "If one accepts the premise that similarity to Armenians and Georgians represents Khazar ancestry for Ashkenazi Jews, then by extension one must also claim that Middle Eastern Jews and many Mediterranean European and Middle Eastern populations are also Khazar descendants. This claim is clearly not valid, as the differences among the various Jewish and non-Jewish populations of Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East predate the period of the Khazars by thousands of years".[89][90]

Khazars were turkick-mongolian peoples. Kazakhs are a good representation, and most ashkenazim look nothing like kazakhs, uzbeks or other turkic mongoloids. If anything the ashkenazi jews with higher levels of non-middle eastern admixture look more european. Proponents of the khazar theory seem to forget that the khazars were not 'white' but asiatic turkic-mongoloid peoples, at the very least, non european. Thats why this theory has been crushed and is very silly. Only anti-zionists and some white supremacist groups still cling to the long debunked khazar theory. British Israelitism was a supporter of this nonsense for a while, and so are those with an anti-zionist agenda. They don't even know that the khazars were non-european in origin and that only the ruling class converted.

Crimean Karaites on the other hand may very well be descendants of some converted khazars, but not the ashkenazim since they are most closely related to syrian jews and sefaradic and moroccan jews.

Btw, here is a so called 'khazar' ashkenazi jew. Yeah...he doesn't look middle eastern at all.

 

And these ashkenazim look uber european as well









The above pictures are all ashkenazi jews. If anyone wants to see a sefaradic jew for a comparison, here you go:

Sefaradic zionist jew in the british mandate of palestine 1944

 

The majority of Israeli Jews are descended from the Israelites. Ever hear of Alliance israélite universelle?

The Alliance israélite universelle (Hebrew: &#1499;&#1500; &#1497;&#1513;&#1512;&#1488;&#1500; &#1495;&#1489;&#1512;&#1497;&#1501;&#8206;) is a Paris-based international Jewish organization founded in 1860 by the French statesman Adolphe Crémieux to safeguard the human rights of Jews around the world. The organization promotes the ideals of Jewish self-defense and self-sufficiency through education and professional development.

The motto of the organization is the Jewish rabbinic injunction Kol yisrael arevim ze laze (&#1499;&#1500; &#1497;&#1513;&#1512;&#1488;&#1500; &#1506;&#1512;&#1489;&#1497;&#1501; &#1494;&#1492; &#1500;&#1494;&#1492;), translated into French as Tous les israélites sont solidaires les uns des autres ("All Jews bear responsibility for one another").

Jews passed down the languages of hebrew and aramaic from generation to generation. As I have already posted, Rashi a medieval french rabbi is the ancestor of many ashkenazi jews, he descends from king david. Maimonides another medieval rabbis of spanish origin was also of israelite descent. And yes, I too am of Israelite descent, I descend from Baghdadi Jews and Kurdish Jews who share the same dna with the ashkenazim and sefaradim (both groups are european jews). Our ancestors were taken to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BCE and we returned to Israel in the hundreds of thousands after the hideous farhoud in Iraq where arabs ripped jewish babies apart limb from limb.

As to your reference of Ariel Sharon and your pointing out his former surname "scheinerman":

1)I don't see your point since African Americans have last names like "jordan, smith, white, martin, etc". It doesn't mean they are of white descent just because they have non-african names.

2)Scheinerman is german, not turkic which actually supports the rhineland hypothesis for the origin of german jews or "ashkenazi" in hebrew. The very term ashkenazi is hebrew, another indication of their hebrew ancestry.It doesn't point at all to khazar origin at least linguistically. But more importantly the phenotype and genetics of a lot of yiddish speaking jews are middle eastern.

Hebrew was used as the jewish language of oral and written communication long before zionism. During and after the middle ages, jewish rabbis and other representatives of the communities of Ashkenaz and Sefarad would be able to communicate with one another through this language. Ashkenazim could not understand ladino, sefaradim could not understand yiddish, but both groups knew hebrew because, wait for it.....they are hebrews.

Herzl is more related to sefaradic jews than he is to native hungarians and his phenotype shows it. And FYI not all zionists were ashkenazi, not even close. Many were sefaradi (spanish jewish), teimani (yemenite jewish), and bavli (babylonian jewish).



And btw, what language is this? Where did the jews pick up this script? Did they just conjur it up out of thin air?

 

Genetic research shows that on the male side, most Jews are indeed descended from the Levant.

But on the female side, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are more than 65% genetically European.

 

I think it depends on the individuals being tested, however Behar has shown in the past that ashkenazim descend from four female founders from the middle east which contradicts the study by richards. Zoosman and Richards even came up with a fanatically high figure of 80%, their statistical methods have been described as flawed by Behar and other geneticists, so in this case its more a battle of opinions between geneticists and the jury is still out. And any european admixture is from southern europe, not northern europe as has been constantly claimed by anti-zionists. Greco-roman conversions around the mediterranean basin make sense and are to be expected. Some admixture among the european jews is normal, just like african americans have some european admixture. The Israelites even in antiquity mixed with other middle eastern groups on occasion, so the idea that the european jews have some european dna varying in percentage from individual to individual doesn't surprise me at all. They lived in europe for 1,000 years, in some cases even longer. There were also rapes from pogroms. But none of this supports the idea that Jews are somehow tricking the world into thinking they are israelites which has always been the claim by rabid anti-semites.

 

the four female founders, are from 20,000 years ago and are southern European.

they obviously weren't Israelites.

 

It depends on the geneticist and the particular study.

Behar et al. in 2008 published evidence suggesting that about 40% of Ashkenazi Jews originate maternally from just four female founders, who were of Middle Eastern origin, while the populations of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jewish communities "showed no evidence for a narrow founder effect".[10] Evidence for female founders has been observed in other Jewish populations. With the exception of Ethiopian and Indian Jews, it has been argued that all of the Jewish populations have mitochondrial genomes that were of Middle Eastern origin

 

the most recent genetic study says that the Four Founder women were from Northern Italy, 20,000 years ago.

 

Yes, the richards study I believe, he put the admixture rate at 80%. Other geneticists have criticized his techniques and statistical methods. I don't go by necessarily which study is more recent. Elhaik for instance is more recent than others but he claimed the ashkenazi genome to be of khazarian origin but actually sabotaged his thesis by using samples from georgians and armenians who are heavily mixed with middle eastern peoples as pointed out by Behar, the same geneticist who first pointed out the four founders of middle eastern origin. This of course was said to represent 40% of Ashkenazi jews, so again, its not representative of all of them. Some may indeed have more european origin than others, and I think this is obvious given the vastly different phenotypes found among ashkenazi families.

Thats why I think its still up for debate, at least maternally. And it really does depend on who is being tested, I don't consider ashkenazim to be a monolithic group.

Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only 4 women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380291/

Btw, some other interesting research has indicated a higher frequency of FMF (mediterranean fever) in ashkenazi jews than was previously expected. This disease is also sometimes referred to as "armenian disease" and is most frequently found among armenians, turks, sefaradic jews, arabs, cypriots, and now to some extent among ashkenazi jews. This again points to near eastern origins judging by the groups that are carriers of the disease.