How the situation with Iran may reflect on Georgia

Discussion in 'Nuclear, Chemical & Bio Weapons' started by jeddie80, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    4,566
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Even those who made up the WMD stories to pursue their Project for a New American Century, former Trotskyte leftists turned right wing Republicans whose loyalties to Israel were a lot more pronounced than their loyalty to the US (read this excellent article at the time), and the president they had co-opted had to finally acknowledge the bogus nature of the WMD stories, but some of the grunts that they led to do their dirty work apparently have been peddling these stories for too long to be able to accept the facts! Not that I am upset America took out the monster they had created, namely, Saddam; far from it. Thanks. But enough of the lies and the nonsense.

    In the meantime, let me say this. I live in Iran. I used to live in America, where I attended junior high and high school, college, and law school and where I practiced law for more than a decade. America needs to worry about fixing its own issues and not worry about other places, especially not Iran. When it comes to Iran, it just needs to stop trying to ruin the country. Even with "crippling sanctions", Iran is doing alright. Without such sanctions, America would need to worry about not falling behind a country like Iran. Don't take it from me; read this article by award winning New York Times journalist and academic, Stephen Kinzer, after his trip to Iran, Turkey, Holland and Germany, entitled: Take a trip abroad, see the US in decline . Or read what anyone who has actually set foot in Iran (AboveAlpha is either down right lying saying he has been, or he was at most one of the Americans on flights that occasionally land in Tehran in transit to other places like Iraq or Afghanistan) has written by Googling for yourself. There are plenty of such folks and their universal message is the same: Iran is nothing like it is portrayed like in the west.

    In fact, lest some of you guys really get the urge to "liberate Iran", let me post what self-described freelance journalist wrote on his blog here. He might be going a bit too far in his comments, but he nonetheless has the right overall sense of things compared to the silly gibberish some folks who need to be worrying about their own plight have to say about Iran!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    PS
    There are more than 20 major ski resorts in Iran, across the country, with around a dozen just near Tehran, for now mostly catering to Iranian skiers since we don't get that many tourists due to political issues! More and more, however, you will find articles such as these recent articles in the LA Times and this one in the New York Post talking about Iran's ski resorts.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Tehran, where I live, has more major American style shopping malls than any city in America, while 2 of the top 10 largest shopping malls in the world are elsewhere in Iran (Shiraz, Isfahan). There are just 65 new shopping malls being built in Tehran alone; 200 new ones across Iran. This is just for Iranian shoppers since, again, Iran has been so far isolated from much of the world. Besides its immense oil and gas reserves, Iran is an industrialized country that produces everything it needs. It is also the leader in the region (and among the top 20 countries in the world) in automobile manufacturing (used to be top 10 in the world before sanctions, now top 20), in steel (top 15), in cement production (4th just behind the US), and many other fields. As I said, you need to fix your own issues before you worry about Iran!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    25,739
    Likes Received:
    680
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Western Era of human history is ending. The international system created by the West is coming to an end. American power is in decline on a full spectrum basis. Whether the Geneva Conventions are used is irrelevant.

    America has been defeated in Afghanistan by a group of fuzzy wuzzies with steadfastness. America was defeated in Vietnam by pajama clad guerrillas with steadfastness. America can be defeated by anyone prepared to fight a prolonged war. America has lost the initiative against ISIS. It is like Japan after the Battle of Midway.

    America won the war in Iraq before Obama decided to throw it away in order to improve his chances for reelection in 2012.




    The US is often informed about lone wolves, but fails to act before they strike. The US Army officer who committed the terror act at Ft. Hood is an example. The Tsarnaev brothers from Boston are another example. The last attack was committed by a guy who went to the Middle East to train with ISIS before returning to strike the military recruitment office where he killed five American servicemen. Btw, if you want gun control the way I suspect you do it will be necessary for your side to fight and win an actual civil war.




    Yes. It's resistance to the Obama agenda.

    They were elected to resist Obama's agenda. To the extent they do so they have satisfied the hopes of the people who elected them. To the extent they cooperate with Obama, e.g., on the recent free trade deal, they frustrate the hopes of those who elected them.




    Sometimes you are right. :)



    Bingo!



    Before one chooses to fight it is necessary to do a cost/benefit analysis.




    Check out the PISA testing by the OECD and look at America's ranking compared to its foreign peers.

    Kardashians.
     
  3. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38,476
    Likes Received:
    9,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    America never had the initiative with ISIS. I don't disagree they lost the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not militarily. they lost it politically and in failing to actually win the hearts and minds of those they defeated. Instead they corrupted them all.

    America did not win the war in Iraq, they defeated what turned out to be an army that had rotted to its core. they didn't defeat the "insurgency", the killing NEVER stopped. And the "surge" was a wonderful thing, since most of the "insurgents" simply went to ground to wait it out and "SURPRISE" popped their ugly heads up again.
    the debaathification idiocy CREATED a whole bunch of "unemployed bad actors" who had NO ALTERNATIVE than to get outta dodge and fight back because if they returned to their homes, they'd have been torn apart as per the doctrine of Islamic vengeance.


    Well I am sure there are those that wish to impose all kinds of surveillance programs to ensure that all reports of "lone wolves" are investigated and those individuals monitored or simply arrested out of hand by being designated a "terrorist" even if they have not taken any action.

    Are you clairvoyant? You have no clue what my version of gun control is. I happen to believe gun ownership is not the problem, its the lack of common sense in the distribution and sale and regulation of ownership.

    I believe that the parent who owns the gun that the five year old blew his own head off with, should be charged with negligent homicide. I could go on, but this isn't the topic at hand.



    At the expense of doing their jobs. Nice.



    WRONG. they were elected to govern the damn country. To enact the policies they espoused on the campaign trail. they weren't elected to resist but to advance.


    Do you think the cost/benefit analysis on Iran is "fight" instead of implementing an agreement that the five permanent members on the UNSC plus the EU all agreed on?

    I guess the cost/benefit analysis of Iraq 2 and Afghanistan weren't all that they were initially cracked up to be. But they sure as hell were steadfast in their desire to fight.


    that isn't a shocking depletion of human capital. that is simply a comparison of results of standardized international test of 15 year old students. Fact is the US has never fared all that well in comparative testing of students - pretty much consistently in the middle of the pack.




    ya got me there. :)
     
  4. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The United States has allowed Syria to exist for one reason....Assad makes sure to protect all religions...even if he kills Sunni's and steals money from U.N. Programs.

    We had a chance to remove Assad and we waited too long.

    After the ISIS showed up....we cannor remove Assad as yet.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  5. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I am aware you went to school in the states.

    I am aware of many things....and because of this I am aware of your reality.

    You don't have to directly answer this as I understand what constraints you have upon yourself.....but YOU are well aware that the United States does not put Heavy Sanctions upon a Nation for no reason.

    You are also aware that the United States would be MORE THAN HAPPY to have good close relations with Iran.

    And you are also aware of why we don't.

    It certainly has nothing to do with the vast majority of the Iranian People who if they could would be more than happy to be a close U.S. Ally.

    It has to do with a buch of OLD IRANIAN RELIGIOUS FANATICS.

    It has to do with Iran breaking the rules and regulations of the NPT.

    You were SELECTED to confront these issues and as every member who has read our back and forth knows...NOT ONCE have you discussed how as long as Iran HONOR'S THEIR AGREEMENTS especially those with the United States....there will be no issues, no war...no problems.

    But you never talk about this....and I am well aware why you do not.

    If it is possible for you to communicate this to those OLD MEN....without placing yourself in danger....which you probably could not avoid...but if you could....let them know this is not a JOKE.

    If Iran does not honor the agreement and abide by the rules of the NPT....the United States WILL HAVE NO CHOICE.....but to SEIZE ALL IRANIAN NUCLEAR FACILITIES AND DEACTIVATE IRANIAN NUCLEAR REACTORS!!!

    The U.S. Military is fully cpable of doing this and those OLD MEN will see that any orders from them to their Military Leadership to attack U.S. Forces....will probably no be followed.

    Those that do follow such insane orders...such as Republican Guard Units....will be obliterated with extreme predjudice.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  6. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892
    Likes Received:
    1,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I just realized the topic of this thread is about Iran.

    So, in that light, what do you think about the recent movement in the US Congress to fight the Iran deal? Some people don't want it to pass.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  7. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The Deal sucks.

    But it would show the U.S. going the extra mile.

    Within 24 months we would know...and probably sooner than that...if Iran is honoring the agreement which I highly doubt it will.

    Iran is in direct violation of just about every rule in the NPT.

    They cannot be allowed to develop a Nuclear Weapon.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  8. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892
    Likes Received:
    1,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well, if the deal stands after the standoff in Congress, then I guess it'll be the next US President who has to deal with the Iran problem.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  9. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    That is a fair assessment as Obama want's no part of it.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  10. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892
    Likes Received:
    1,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Okay, so that leads to my next question: which of the Republican candidates is good to go on Iran?

    I don't remember that part of the debates last night.

    Did you see it? Do you have an opinion?
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  11. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I think our current problem is we have not stressed how important it is for Iran to honor it's agreement.

    Too much time was spent developing a deal and not enough time was spent upon explaining what will happen if Iran does not honor the deal.

    As it stands now I don't think Iran has been given the message that must be made 100% Clear wih that message being....IF YOU SCREW UP AND DO NOT HONOR THIS AGREEMENT WE WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GO IN TO PRESERVE THE NPT!!!

    Preservation of the NPT trumps all other considerations and we should have made this clear.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  12. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892
    Likes Received:
    1,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's just another red line to be crossed.

    You see, I don't think we're going to preserve the NPT. It's day is done, and now's the time for the third world to rise up and claim their own nuclear weapons.

    This has been talked about before here and there in a not if but when they acquire nuclear weapons. It's a sign of how the world is going to be changing as the United States declines.
     
  13. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    NPT Violations are more of an issue for 3rd World Nations not so much for the U.S. as even if Iran built 10 5 to 7 Kiloton Nominal Yield Fission Bombs....this is not something that would deter the U.S. Military.

    But if the NPT Fails every nation that purchased Nuclear Reactors and Nuclear Tech. that it could not develop on it's own and then they begin to build Fission Bombs...will just result in regional nuclear disasters.

    NO WAY....is the U.S. going to allow the NPT to fail.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  14. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    9,892
    Likes Received:
    1,481
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Is that sort of like how the U.S. wouldn't allow Syria to get away with using Chemical Weapons?
     
  15. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    A HUGE MISTAKE!

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  16. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    25,739
    Likes Received:
    680
    Trophy Points:
    0
    After the Surge Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia was down in numbers, weapons, and power. The country had been secured. By refusing to negotiate a Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq and withdrawing all US troops, and maintaining no troop presence in country, Obama threw away the fruits of military victory. The Surge was as much a political victory as a military victory. The Sons of Iraq had been coopted. Obama turned the sacrifices of the American dead and wounded into futile gestures.

    The defeat in Afghanistan has been full spectrum defeat.


    Slippery Slope.



    Stopping Obama was their job.




    They were elected to fight and resist...that's all. The country is being controlled by the TWANLOC and is thus FUBAR. So fight and resist.




    Maintain sanctions, don't fund Iran's terrorism, don't fund Iranian expansionism, and don't cause Iran's neighbors to get nukes.

    The cost/benefit ratio in both locales dictated no invasion.



    American performance is in freefall.

    Look at the national debt, and off budget future obligations. Where will the money come from? Look at what's happening to the working and middle classes.
     
  17. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38,476
    Likes Received:
    9,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The country was not "secured" by any stretch of the imagination.
    Sure, AQ had been hit hard, but many went to ground along with Baathist "outlaws" and any number of Islamist groups (both sunni and shia).

    Obama didn't throw anything away.
    He honored what was a bilateral agreement between the United States (occupiers) and the sovereign (sorta) government of Iraq


    Just like in Iraq.


    Yeah, common sense is sure as hell slippery for some.



    Wrong. Governing the nation, initiating legislation, solving the challenges of the nation. That IS their job. Political obstructionism isn't their job and would have been completely unnecessary if "compromise and cooperation" weren't dirty words in "conservativille".




    Truly sad.






    If sanctions were working so well how come the world was in a tizzy over an Iranian nuclear weapons program? could it possibly be because the sanctions, while being onerous and economically impactful to the Iranian people, weren't doing SQUAT in stopping or deterring the Iranian regime from ANY course of action?
    did the sanctions stop them funding shia rebels in Syria, or Hezbollah in Lebanon - NO. did it stop them from supporting insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan? NO

    For some reason, there are people who think that that status quo, where Iran was essentially unencumbered is a better solution than actually negotiating a multi-national agreement to contain and monitor their nuclear program. WHICH WAS THE PRIMARY OBJECTIVE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS.



    I congratulate you on your amazing hindsight.



    If American performance was in freefall, their debtors would be going ape, but amazingly for some strange reason they keep buying up treasuries. But of course that isn't a function of the "free" capital markets, that's a function of Obama printing money. :roll:

    The money to pay the debt and future obligations will come from increased tax revenues and restrained spending expansion to create meaningful surpluses that can be applied directly to the debt. Its a pretty damn straightforward equation.

    Yes, look what's happening to the working and middle classes. considering its been happening for over 30 years, it seems something is not quite right in both the political and economic ideologies of both republicans and democrats.
     
  18. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Here is something interesting.

    This forum once had a member named Iranian Student.....and after I discussed a few things that hit way too close to home that member was never heard from again.


    A short while back a member calling themself Iranian Monitor started posting.

    This member posted very much like the supposedly different member named Iranian Student but I let it go.

    I have been to Iran several times and I can tell you the Iranian Student's don't post in the way the members either Iranian Student or Iranian Monitor do and I am faily sure they are one in the same.

    A few days ago I posted this............................................................................................................................

    ***********************************************************************************************************************

    "I am aware you went to school in the states.

    I am aware of many things....and because of this I am aware of your reality.

    You don't have to directly answer this as I understand what constraints you have upon yourself.....but YOU are well aware that the United States does not put Heavy Sanctions upon a Nation for no reason.

    You are also aware that the United States would be MORE THAN HAPPY to have good close relations with Iran.

    And you are also aware of why we don't.

    It certainly has nothing to do with the vast majority of the Iranian People who if they could would be more than happy to be a close U.S. Ally.

    It has to do with a buch of OLD IRANIAN RELIGIOUS FANATICS.

    It has to do with Iran breaking the rules and regulations of the NPT.

    You were SELECTED to confront these issues and as every member who has read our back and forth knows...NOT ONCE have you discussed how as long as Iran HONOR'S THEIR AGREEMENTS especially those with the United States....there will be no issues, no war...no problems.

    But you never talk about this....and I am well aware why you do not.

    If it is possible for you to communicate this to those OLD MEN....without placing yourself in danger....which you probably could not avoid...but if you could....let them know this is not a JOKE.

    If Iran does not honor the agreement and abide by the rules of the NPT....the United States WILL HAVE NO CHOICE.....but to SEIZE ALL IRANIAN NUCLEAR FACILITIES AND DEACTIVATE IRANIAN NUCLEAR REACTORS!!!

    The U.S. Military is fully cpable of doing this and those OLD MEN will see that any orders from them to their Military Leadership to attack U.S. Forces....will probably no be followed.

    Those that do follow such insane orders...such as Republican Guard Units....will be obliterated with extreme predjudice."....end quote AboveAlpha.


    Since I have posted this I do not believe the member Iranian Monitor has posted on this forum....if I am wrong please someone who knows inform me.

    But if I am right.......it is a fair indicator of motive as far as why this member posts as they do.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  19. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    25,739
    Likes Received:
    680
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Vice President Joe Biden would call you mistaken. Did you forget this?

    [video=youtube;tLteUGkvpOc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLteUGkvpOc[/video]

    Obama walked away from negotiations over the Status of Forces Agreement extension. Did you forget that? What VP Joe Biden called a success, Obama turned to (*)(*)(*)(*). Did you forget you acknowledged Obama shouldn't have walked away from the SOF agmt. extension negotiations?




    In Iraq Obama walked away from a success purchased with much loss of American life, and in Afghanistan Obama screwed the pooch by escalating while telling the fuzzy wuzzies when he would withdraw. Then he allowed himself to be sandbagged by Pakistan, ended American involvement while maintaining US troops in place. His conduct of the Afghan war can't be defended.




    You may have good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.





    The USA is long past that nonsense. This is a zero sum society and polity. You win, I lose. I win, you lose. Neither of us can safely rely on the good faith of the other.




    Cheer up. Rome lost the Battle of Adrianople, but continued to exist for quite some time.








    Sanctions were an anchor on Iran's forward progress, thereby delaying the demise of the NPT and the proliferation of nuclear weapons technology.

    The Alawites of Syria aren't rebels. They are the group providing the Support to the al Assad regime. You remember Assad? He was the guy who stepped over Obama's red line, promised to get rid of his chemical weapons, but didn't. He's still using chlorine gas. Another Obama triumph.

    More Obama triumphs huh?

    That's just rhetoric. The JCPOA is going to pave the way for a new version of the Achaemenid Empire (First Persian Empire), Parthian Empire (Second Persian Empire), Sassanian Empire (Third Persian Empire), and Safavid Empire (Fourth Persian Empire). What is it about the Persians and empire building? Do you see the pattern?





    It wasn't a matter of hindsight at all. Understanding history and culture isn't difficult. There are patterns that can be discerned from the limited universe of human nature and human behavior. All it requires is years of study.





    Reliance by a polity on zero interest rate debt financing is an indication of a society that is dying. America is mortgaging the future to pay for the present. Sure is going to suck when the bill comes due...but that burden will fall upon the young and those who follow them. Productivity is the source for the creation of wealth. American productivity is flatlining.

    Obama has increased the national debt by eight trillion dollars, and will add another one to two trillion to that by the time he leaves office.

    Printing money is only an option as long as America retains the world's only reserve currency. But the groundwork for the end of dollar dominance is being laid by other powers who want America to fail.

    The rich aren't going to allow themselves to be taxed sufficiently to accomplish your prediction. Both Democrats and Establishment Republicans are beholden to the rich. The middle and working classes will serve as livestock for only so long. Look at California as an example of the future of the American people. The state is composed of rich, the dependent poor, and a rapidly diminishing working/middle classes.

    Can you name a people who have restored public virtue once they have become decadent? America isn't even a nation. It's a collection of tribes, some of whom are mutually antagonistic.
     
  20. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I have just been informed by another member that the member named Iranian Monitor has posted on another topic.....but he has been gone for a few days.

    I am interested to see if this member will make an attempt to discuss whether or not he believes Iran will HONOR IT'S AGREEMENTS thus if that is done there will be no issue of a possible U.S. Invasion.

    However I am skeptical he will directly reply to my query as I don't think he has a choice in what he many or maynot respond to.

    If that is the case....and it very well could be....I pity him....and hope he can get out of what he is in.

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38,476
    Likes Received:
    9,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nope. OTOH, shall we review all the statements made by neo-cons wrt Iraq and Afghanistan that you appear to have forgotten?






    There was no issue of negotiations, because it takes two to tango and the duly ELECTED IRAQI GOVERNMENT wanted the existing SOFA to be executed.
    Of course, the American jingoists don't give a crap about other nation's sovereignty, only their own.

    To consider Iraq a success prior to the execution of the SOFA, is clearly a fantasy.


    But the engine propelling them down the road to hell is being driven by the arrogance of war mongers.




    So, its not the declared strategy of obstructionism that has exacerbated the situation? that you consider compromise and cooperation to be nonsense is rather telling.

    Fallacious comparisons do not a point make.


    so what's the beef about them getting a bomb? Apparently with the sanctions Iran's forward progress didn't seem to be at all affected, which is a great reason to squash the deal and bomb the crap out of them. Try to stick to one position.



    Mea culpa. Still using chlorine gas? where and when?


    Never claimed them to be triumphs of ANYONE.



    You confuse "rhetoric" with fact. Gee 4 empires in 2500 years. that's on average one every 625 years, got about another 400 years to go before the fifth one if history adheres to the pattern as you seem to feel the past expresses the intention of the present.


    Yes I can see how well some people have understood history and other cultures. Get back to me when you have gotten far enough along in your years of study to actually be able to substantiate your more wild claims.





    funny how every generation has pushed its deficits unto the next. Perhaps you can produce some facts to back up your claim about productivity flatlining. (I thought that word was euphemism for dying?)

    funny how such an unproductive nation can be so highly ranked in terms of competitiveness.

    http://www.weforum.org/reports/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015

    http://www.oecd.org/std/productivity-stats/

    yes debt did explode in the worst recession since the depression with millions of jobs lost, hundreds of billions in lost revenues, putting a couple of wars "on the books", etc. etc.

    "allow themselves"? Hmmmmm, well I can certainly see how the rich have corrupted and stolen the democratic process.

    I don't think that they will be able to stand the heat over what amounts to a nominal increase in their tax rates and the closing of various loopholes.


    Not sure what you mean by "public virtue". America isn't a nation? Gee, talk about fooling all of the people all of the time.
     
  22. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    4,566
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    Trophy Points:
    113
    While I don't want to jump in the middle of your argument, and find your views overall to be quite appropriate and balanced, I like to give context to the historical discussion. The point you make is a bit inaccurate, because Iran didn't rule each of these empires for just one year to divide the number of empires by the time frame to come up with the kind of pattern you allude to. Instead, those ruled, first, from 550 B.C to 330 B.C. (the Achaemenid Empire), then from 247 B.C. to 224 A.D. (the Parthian Empire), then from 220 A.D. to 624 A.D. (the Sassanid Empire), and then from 1501 to 1736 (Safavid Empire).

    I should mention, incidentally, that until the revolution in 1979, Iran ways ruled as an "empire". Therefore, the above empires obviously aren't the only Iranian empires, nor certainly the only empires whose seat and center of power was in Iran. But other than the short-lived Afsharid dynasty and the empire under Nader Shah (1736-1747) -- Nader Shah being dubbed the Persian Napoleon for his conquests including his exploits in India and the sack of Delhi -- these are probably the most significant Iranian empires or regimes in history.

    Nonetheless, the point you need to bear in mind is that before the Arab invasion, Iran was a dominant power for most of history. To be precise, from 550 B.C. (rise of the Achaemenid Empire under Cyrus the Great) to 624 A.D. (Arab conquest of Iran and fall of the Sassanid Empire), which is roughly one thousand years of consecutive history, there was only one short period (after the conquest of Iran by Alexander in 330 B.C. and under his successors, the Greek Seleucids, whose ruled over Iran ended less than a hundreds years later with the rise of the Parthians in 247 B.C.), that Iran ceased to be a major power. . Otherwise, Iran was consecutively for many centuries, not just an empire, but one of the dominant powers of its time. After the Islamic period, Iran was generally part of empires who defined themselves by religion as Muslims. That is until the rise of the Safavid dynasty in 1501, which appealed to both Islamic tradition (albeit Shia Islam) as well as the pre-Islamic Iranian claims over various regions to justify its rule. Subsequent dynasties, in particular, the Afsharid Dynasty under Nader Shah that I mentioned, tried to continue Iran's imperial tradition but as time went on, their success was limited and their failures more notable. By the time of the Qajar Dynasty (1785-1925), Iran went into a period of decline. At the time, Tiflisi in Georgia and Yerevan in Armenia were under Iranian rule, but as a result of two disastrous wars with Russia (see Russo-Persian wars) in the 19th century (the war of 1803-1813 and the war of 1816-1818) Iran's was forced to relinquish its claims to the Caucasus. Iran's attempt to win control over Afghanistan were also defeated after Iran conquered Herat, with the British waging war against Iran and forcing Iran to renounce claims to Afghanistan as a result of the Anglo-Persian war of 1856-1857. Since that war, Iran ceased to have any imperial pretensions, even though the official name of the country until the 1979 was the Empire of Iran.

    P.S.
    Below is a British map of Iran at the beginning of the 19th century (1808), before Iran lost its claims to the Caucasus and to Afghanistan as a result of the wars I mentioned.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    Messages:
    30,284
    Likes Received:
    579
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gee....how did I ever guess you would not reply to my last few posts to you?

    AboveAlpha
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  24. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    4,566
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Given the title of this thread, which seems focused as much on Georgia as Iran, I should mention that the wars that pretty much ended the empire business for Iran, namely the Russo-Persian wars of 1804-1813 and then 1816-1818, began largely because of events in Georgia! Basically, taking advantage of turmoil and civil war in Iran, the Georgians had tried to become independent but after Iran reestablished its rule over Georgia, the Georgians appealed to the Russians for help and the Russians intervened and establish control over Georgia. That led to war with Iran.

    That war pitted Iran (a country which had a population at the time of around 6 million, against an emerging power, Russia, with a population several times larger than Iran's, around 30 million at the time). While Iran lost the war, and the loss was indeed disastrous, it wasn't a one sided affair by any means. Russian casualties were almost as large as Iran's and the war dragged for almost ten years before it ended in Russian victory.

    https://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1800s/yr00/frussopersian1804.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Persian_War_(1804–13)
    Russo-Persian War (1804–13)
    [​IMG]
    The subsequent war of 1816-1818, the last major war between Iran and Russia which the way for the Russians to begin meddling in Iranian affairs, began with Iran attempting to win back the territories lost as a result of the earlier war, but despite a very promising beginning to that war, it ended disastrously for Iran with Iran ceding not just Georgia, but Armenia and northern Azerbaijan to the Russians as well. Indeed, the The Treaty of Turkemchay which ended the war is regarded to this day as one of the most ignominious chapters in Iranian history and is used as shorthand for any treaty which is forcing Iran to capitulate and be humiliated. Although the terms of the Treaty merely reflected the fact that the Persian army has been routed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Persian_War_(1826–28)
    Russo-Persian War (1826–28)
    [​IMG]
     
  25. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    38,476
    Likes Received:
    9,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sorry, I was being facetious in response to what I considered a stupid rationale. I realize that It can be hard to discern thru this medium at times.
     

Share This Page