IDF v Hezbollah: The Rematch Summer 2015?

They've been going at it, on and off, since right after the death of Ali.

 

That's true.
Why do western imperialists seek to exploit that unfortunate history?

 

Why do you keep repeating this. No one disputes that the point of the mandate was a Jewish home in Palestine. Again if you want to Israel to keep the West Bank than you can't keep Israel as a Jewish/Western state instead condemning it as a bi-national/Arab state. If you don't provide citizenship then you turn Israel into apartheid state which does violate civil rights of non Jewish communities ie Palestinians in West Bank. Again this is profession of security experts in Israel like former Shin Bet, Mossad and high ranking IDF officers. Best examples of that include Lt. General former chief of staff Gabi Ashkenazi who said "The creation of a Palestinian state is “inevitable,” so Israel must adopt an active stance towards reengaging the Palestinian leadership. This would have a bigger impact on the final outcome if it were achieved "with coordination rather than in conflict," and the Israeli government would have a greater likelihood of producing two states under conditions suitable both to Palestinians and Israelis. " Another example is Major General Amos Yadlin former head of Aman military intelligence who said "If there is no peace, and no two-state solution, then [Israel] will be destroyed."
http://www.israelnsp.org/what-they-say/vital-for-israeli-security.html

 

Thinking the way you do, is the <alarmist way>...
I do not see why it should be the role of Israel to create yet another Arab (revanchist) 23rd state in the heart of the Jewish Patrimony.

These officers proposing such a plan are out of touch with reality... The fact remains, that all humanity living in <Eretz Israel> should swear allegiance to the flag and the rules of law of the <Jewish State> or leave! A good percentage of these people already opted for Israel citizenship and a substantial amount of them are serving in the IDF.

From statistics obtained nearly 20,000 Arabs leave Israel on a yearly basis for Europe.

To yet <slice out> another piece out of tiny Israel after relinquishing 77% to create Jordan, is in my estimation, the last straw that would break the Camel's back and would hasten the demise of the Jewish Patrimony. The Arabs do not want to live with <Kuffar> = non believers in Islam they want to erode them and turn them into Muslims.

 

We don't.

 

Lord Balfour did.

 

I'm not British. I don't have a horse in that race.

 

Western imperialism has had a horse in every race in the Middle East since the War to End All Wars; Lord Balfour and his Declaration capitalized on the crime Abu and Ali set in motion.

"The British did not know quite what to make of President Woodrow Wilson and his conviction (before America's entrance into the war) that the way to end hostilities was for both sides to accept 'peace without victory.' Two of Wilson's closest advisors, Louis Brandeis and Felix Frankfurter, were avid Zionists. How better to shore up an uncertain ally than by endorsing Zionist aims?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#British_Government

 

How are they out of touch with reality? Their entire job/career is protecting Israel. How are they just as qualified if not more qualified than the right(which many that don't support holding onto West Bank like Sharon, Dicher, and Mofaz came from). Most people agree that demographics have Arabs eventually reaching Palestine(Palestinian censure bureau 1997 estimated that Jews would lose majority between Mediterranean and Jordan by 2015 isn't too far off with Jews currently 50% of the population between Mediterranean and Jordan). An Arab majority or even substantial minority would change character of state. This is reflected by most Arabs in Israel proper voting for the Joint List a coalition that includes Communists, Arab nationalists in the past that have praised father of Bashar Assad of Syria and Islamist, a coalition that refused to even sign a surplus agreement with Meretz. In the West Bank, governing PA is known for being corrupt and autocratic. The notion that if Israel withdraws from West Bank that it will end Israel is nonsense. Israel survived from 1948 to 1967 despite arguable greater threats without the West Bank. Israel's military is among the greatest in the world and is second to none in the Middle East with Israel not having a conventional war since 1973(1982 war was waged against PLO). The West Bank has largely been quiet since 2005 with most attacks lone gunmen attacks;some of the latest ones from East Jerusalem neighborhoods that were annexed to Jerusalem after 1967 that have been cut off from municipal services due to the fence and PA being banned from operating in them since they technically are under Israel's jurisdiction. Also if the Arabs wanted to eliminate Israel they probably would be able to do it given disparity in size(Egypt one of 22 Arab states has over 80 million people, in comparison Israel has over 8 million people), however they don't due to various reasons like rightfully the world would condemn them for genocide, Israel's retaliating with nuclear weapons which is still a factor regardless if Israel controls West Bank, and while most Arabs detest the occupation(hypocritically considering human right abuses of Arab regimes) but don't want to see Israel destroyed. Also blaming the entire conflict on Islamist ideology is not looking at the facts. The PA under Abbas was months away from a deal with Olmert this is according to both sides on the talks with Abbas agreeing to Israel keeping all of settlement blocs except Ariel which sits on land reserves and all Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem except for Gilo which was established in 1996; Abbas since then has been offering to return to point of 2008 talks, however Bibi has refused to. In addition 57 Islamic nations back the 2002 Arab peace initiative which has been amended to allow for land swaps. Why should Palestinians be required to leave if they don't want to swear allegiance to a state that they have been in bitter conflict since even before birth(with Jewish terrorist group Irgun and Arab terrorist gangs committing atrocities before formation of state). If Israelis don't listen to their founders and security experts then there is a good chance that a third intifada will happen due to combination of lack of political process or progress and ongoing human right violations associated with occupation. Unlike the second intifada which a lot of blame was with the Arabs in particularity Arafat a lot of blame would be with Israeli side.

 

Israel is a Democracy and, in a Democracy people have different opinions...
Your opinion does not count here... it does influence only those that expect Israel to die... Well we do not intend to die for the next 50 generations. Adios.

 

I'm not an American either... Keep fishing.

 

Are you Russian?
"The British adopted similar thinking when it came to the Russians, who were in the midst of their revolution. Several of the most prominent revolutionaries, including Leon Trotsky, were of Jewish descent. Why not see if they could be persuaded to keep Russia in the war by appealing to their latent Jewishness and giving them another reason to continue the fight?" ... These include not only those already mentioned but also Britain's desire to attract Jewish financial resources.[15]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#British_Government

 

I never said Israel within green lines isn't a democracy. According to most demographic experts and Israel's security experts is that Israel will turn it into a bi-national state if occupation doesn't end. Some Israeli Arabs do serve in the IDF like Druze,Circissians, some Bedouin and small number of Christians and Muslims; however that isn't majority of Israeli Arab. Also, if Israel annexed West Bank Palestinians would probably not want to join the army or be part of a country that has oppressed them for decades. With Palestinians reaching majority of population something like Joint List which includes ideologies like Communist and Islamist that aren't democratic could be ruling party in Israel. How does this influence those who expect Israel to die? I never said that I support attacks against Israel, or a third intifada(again as I noted before I do fear a third intifada if occupation continues with lack of political progress to end it while ongoing human right violations and symbol of occupation settlements continue unabated) , or anything like that, and I have always supported Israel's right to exist. Your argument is that if Israel withdraw from the West Bank that Israel will be destroyed doesn't carry weight due to facts I listed above like that they haven't fought a conventional war since 1973, and that due to disparity in size the Arabs could probably destroy Israel if they wanted to regardless of whether or not Israel holds the West Bank. Another example of security experts warning Israel can't be a Jewish and democratic state with occupation is the group Commanders for Israel's security. The group calls for regional negotiations based on 2002 Arab peace initiative. The group notes
"The Israeli security forces have the power to secure the final border as shall be agreed upon by the Government of Israel and endorsed by the Israeli people. Claims that an agreement will undermine security are unfounded. The opposite is true: as political agreement enhances security. The IDF can provide an effective response to any security challenge, and its strength provides the Government of Israel with the negotiating space required to achieve peace arrangements."
The group was founded last year. The group includes 188 senior retired officials from Israel's military, Shin Bet, Mossad, and national police. Between them they have 5,600 years of experience. All of them from army are ranked Brigade General and above. The list also includes several former Mossad heads like Meir Dagan,Shabtai Shavit, and Danny Yatom. The group also includes former Shin Bet head Ami Ayalon and several division and deputy division heads of Shin Bet.
http://en.cis.org.il/members/
http://en.cis.org.il/our-vision/

 

Nope... You're trying to hard and so far you're batting zero...

 

There is no more 'green line' since 1948 and 1967 for this used to be then, 'an armistice line'...
So the rest of your comments are built on shifting sand just to give your statement some semblance of legitimacy and practicality.

'Eretz Israel' is Israel in its entirety nothing is going to change that. Be well!!!

 

Not unlike UK investment bankers in 1917...

"In his Memoirs, published in 1939, Lloyd George further elucidated his position:[21]
'The Balfour Declaration represented the convinced policy of all parties in our country and also in America, but the launching of it in 1917 was due, as I have said, to propagandist reasons... The Zionist Movement was exceptionally strong in Russia and America... It was believed, also, that such a declaration would have a potent influence upon world Jewry outside Russia, and secure for the Entente the aid of Jewish financial interests. In America, their aid in this respect would have a special value when the Allies had almost exhausted the gold and marketable securities available for American purchases. Such were the chief considerations which, in 1917, impelled the British Government towards making a contract with Jewry.'"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#British_Government

 

Again you miss the mark.

 

Why does it matter that Israel was established to the British due to mandate based on Balfour declaration? Israel has a right to exist with one of the most democratic prosperous(within green lines) states that has formed post WW2.

 

The green line is an accepted term for Israel pre six borders and refers to the ink on 49 armistice line. Pre six day war borders, Israeli proper also mean the same thing. How is anything I said not legitimate. The fact is Israel within green lines, Israel proper or whatever you want to call it is a flawed but democratic society that is recognized by over 180 countries including several Muslim and two Arab with embassies located in Tel Aviv and none in Jerusalem. The fact is that Israel within West Bank is not recognized with no one not even Israel's allies recognizing the settlements, annexation of East Jerusalem and Golan Heights are not recognized by any nations either. The fact is that West Bank and East Jerusalem are not democracies with Palestinians living under military rule while neighboring Jews have full civil and political rights. In East Jerusalem while there is Israeli civil rule there is mass disparity in allocation of resources in Jerusalem, restrictions in building and use of house demolition on Arabs, and other problems like municipal basic services like garbage, water denied to neighborhoods annexed to Jerusalem that are outside the fence. Greater Israel is a dream that won't happen, if you want to hold onto West Bank you will have a bi-national and not a Jewish state.

 

There are currently equal numbers of Jews and non-Jews living between the River and the sea, and Israel controls the monopoly of violence over that entire state; if the Jewish state is truly democratic, Jews should demand universal suffrage for all people living under their laws.

 

I agree, however the solution is not creating a bi-national state or replacing Israel with an Arab state and it's why occupation needs to end. What Amos Yadlin and others like Labor in 2003 elections propose negotiate with PA(Abbas wants to go back at point of 2008 talks with Olmert when they were months away from a deal but Bibi has refused to) and if negotiations fail withdraw to the fence and Jordan valley(considering that settlements there sit on most fertile land reserves in West Bank and it used to justify building restrictions on Palestinians they should be dismantled).

 

"After his retirement from the IDF in November 2010, Yadlin joined the Washington Institute for Near East Policy as the Kay Fellow on Israeli national security. In November 2011, he was appointed director of Tel Aviv University's Institute for National Security Studies.[2]

"Yadlin's public positions have urged caution and patience in dealing with the nuclear program of Iran, in contrast to the more urgent language of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.[4] He tentatively supported the Geneva interim agreement of November 2013.[5]

"Yadlin advocates, if peace negotiations with the Palestinians fail to produce an agreement, unilaterally withdrawing from 85% of the West Bank.

"The IDF would maintain a presence in the Jordan Rift Valley and in the main settlement blocs, as well as a strip of land meant to protect Ben Gurion Airport from Palestinian rocket attacks."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Yadlin

Would a withdrawal from 85% of the West Bank mean the removal of 85% of settlers currently living there? It seems to me neither Likud nor Hamas would be likely to support such a solution. What happens to the New Middle East if Israel experiences civil war?

 

Just the opposite... Everyone or anyone should swear <allegiance> to the flag and rules of Israel or leave... Then democracy will shoot roots and flourish.

 

Why would you expect the victims of a vicious illegal occupation to swear allegiance to their occupiers?
If Israel expects the world to acknowledge its sovereignty over all the land between the River and the sea, Israel's Jews will first have to prove their commitment to democracy.

 

Because after nearly 2000 years we are the masters of our destiny and in addition we do not want <fifth Columnists> to be eroding us by their dishonest behavior towards us and the <Jewish Patrimony>.