IDF v Hezbollah: The Rematch Summer 2015?

How is using facts deceit? I used multiple sources including Israeli with IDF history department admitting that Sinai expulsion case recorded. The last part about Sharon came from Israeli generals like YItzhak Rabin, Yosef Geva, Moshe Dayan, and Misham Shaham. Does that mean anything to you?

 

How is that a non answer? I never said Arabs didn't commit wrongs or violated international law. I also gave out examples of Arab atrocities/ violating international law in previous post. These aren't alleged Israeli violations or fictional violations. These actions like Qibya and Bureij massacre, 1956 gaza city artillery attack, 1972 Sinai expulsion are part of history, and are war crimes. Denying that these are atrocities is like not admitting suicide bombers or launching rockets at civilians are atrocities. The fact is both sides have committed a vast list of atrocities since conflict started.

 

Scraping the bottom of the barrel to pick up bits and pieces of sixty years ago when Israel was just (Eight years old) defines exactly the venom spewed.

You have nothing against us... you are either a Neturei Karta adherent or an Arab...
Speaking of Arabs they serve in the IDF today...
Speaking of Muslims... we had one from Pakistan visiting for 3 weeks and declared that whatever he heard about Israel ended up to be a big lie. I invite the most vociferous Israel antagonists to visit and evaluate the situation by themselves.

 

Not at all. You must be one of those Jew-loving white people who think that all the poor Lebanese Christians did was turn their cheek. Please, they killed each other like the Arabs they are.

 

I'm not Netueei Karta adherent or an Arab. I'm American Christian. Again that's your knee jerk reaction against someone for criticizing Israel. I'm just stating the facts. The fact is both sides throughout conflict have committed atrocities and violated international law. The fact is that Israel did commit atrocities during 1950's. Although Sharon never was tried for Qibya, Bureij massacre, the IDF did become more disciplined since the 1950's with no clear cases of targeting civilians like Qibya with exception of 1972 Bedouin expulsion during middle of freezing night. However, human right abuses caused by occupation include house demolition, arbitrary arrests in a system where at any one time hundreds are held are administrative detection(held without charge for months at at time) when under international law administrative detection can only be used in extreme cases , widespread torture until 1999 Supreme Court ruling, etc.

 

No apartheid in Israel?
"The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law was passed by the Knesset in 2003 as an interim emergency measure after Israel had suffered its worst ever spate of suicide bombings[73] and after several Palestinians who had been granted permanent residency on the grounds of family reunification took part in terrorist attacks in Israel.[74]

"The law makes inhabitants of Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, and areas governed by the Palestinian Authority ineligible for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits that is usually available through marriage to an Israeli citizen.

"This applies equally to a spouse of any Israeli citizen, whether Arab or Jewish, but in practice the law mostly affects Palestinian Israelis living in the towns bordering the West Bank.[73]

"The law was intended to be temporary but has since been extended annually."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy#Israeli_citizenship_law

 

You could have fooled many here...
No American Christian or otherwise clings to one subject with venom like you do and this seems like the last thing you have to do before meeting St. Paul.

 

Of course like a duplicitous endeavor you have deliberately omitted the <reason>...
And here it is here attached for all to read and peruse.

According to Amnon Rubinstein, a backer of the citizenship law, there are many international precedents for banning citizens of an enemy country in wartime, and with Hamas, which runs the Palestinian Authority, refusing to recognize Israel, that label applies to the Palestinian Authority.
In formulating the law, the government cited security concerns that terrorist organizations try to enlist Palestinians who have already received or will receive Israeli documentation and that the security services have a hard time distinguishing between Palestinians who might help the terrorists and those who will not. A representative for the State, said in court, "In the past two years, 27 people who had applied for permission to join their spouses in Israel were directly involved in attempted or actual attacks.
In the Israeli Supreme Court decision on this matter, Deputy Chief Justice Mishael Cheshin argued that, "Israeli citizens [do not] enjoy a constitutional right to bring a foreign national into Israel ... and it is the right&#8212;moreover, it is the duty&#8212;of the state, of any state, to protect its residents from those wishing to harm them. And it derives from this that the state is entitled to prevent the immigration of enemy nationals into it&#8212;even if they are spouses of Israeli citizens&#8212;while it is waging an armed conflict with that same enemy."
The law was upheld in May 2006, by the Supreme Court of Israel on a six to five vote. Israel's Chief Justice, Aharon Barak, sided with the minority on the bench, declaring: "This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel. As a result, therefore, the law is a violation of the right of Arab citizens in Israel to equality." Zehava Gal-On, one of the founders of B'Tselem and a Knesset member with the Meretz-Yachad party, stated that with the ruling "The Supreme Court could have taken a braver decision and not relegated us to the level of an apartheid state." The law was also criticized by Amnesty International[81] and Human Rights Watch. In 2007, the restriction was expanded to citizens of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.
Heribert Adam and Kogila Moodley cite the marriage law as an example of how Arab Israelis "resemble in many ways 'Colored' and Indian South Africans". They write: "Both Israeli Palestinians and Colored and Indian South Africans are restricted to second-class citizen status when another ethnic group monopolizes state power, treats the minorities as intrinsically suspect, and legally prohibits their access to land or allocates civil service positions or per capita expenditure on education deferentially between dominant and minority citizens."
In June 2008 after the law was extended for another year, Amos Schocken, the publisher of the Israeli daily Haaretz, wrote in an opinion article, that the law severely discriminates when comparing the rights of young Israeli Jewish citizens and young Israeli Arab citizens who marry, and that its existence in the law books turns Israel into an apartheid state.

 

How am I clinging to subject with venom like me? I am just using facts. There are unpleasant truths or facts on both sides. One of them is that Israeli purity of arms especially early in the conflict during 1950's when there were free fire zones, reprisal attacks like Qibya and Bureij that targeted civilians, 1956 artilley attack on Gaza city by Moshe Dayan, etc. While IDF has gotten better, these atrocities still happened and Sharon, Dayan, or troops that carried out their orders were never prosecuted. Again I don't deny the Arab committed atrocities and I have pointed out examples before, while you only point out Arab atrocities or violations of international law during conflict and deny that Israeli side has ever committed atrocities or violations of international law during conflict.

 

So why are you sniveling about Israel? If they conducted their wars like Arabs do, they would not have any Arab Gazans or West Bank squatters to worry about, they would have all been dead in 1917. You're just a regular old time bigot, not some moralist here; if you were you wouldn't have such a blatant double standard. As for myself, I think most Israelis are just too civilized for that part of the world, and they aren't dealing with the problems the way they should be dealt with; too worried about what a bunch of antisemites might say, despite the decades of evidence they are never going to be approved of by their enemies' fans no matter what they do.

 

Israel's conduct matters since it views itself as a Western democratic country and also matters from an American perspective considering we give them 3 billion dollars in military aide. Bigot? You realize bigot is someone that hates everyone of a specific race, color, religion, etc? You are the one that doesn't seem to mind if Arabs die including women and child since you deny atrocities like Qibya and Bureij massacres. You accuse me of double standards when I have pointed out that Arabs have committed atrocities and violated international law too with treatment of its own people like political dissidents, homosexuals,women, etc perhaps worse than conduct during Israeli Arab conflict. You also accuse me for being a bigot for simply saying like in many conflicts both sides have committed horrid actions.
You also call Palestinian squatters. The fact is that they have continuous presence longer in historic Palestine than most Israelis. Jews were a minority of 30% in historic borders of Palestine as late as 1946. Most Israelis are descended from Ashkenazi Jews fleeing from Russian persecution to Palestine during 1880's as part of first aliya or Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews that fled/expelled from Arab countries after formation of Israel in 1948. DNA tests also show part or majority of Palestinians are descended from population living in Palestine at time that were Jewish or Christian that converted to Islam(although they were discriminated against due to being part of dhimmi or protected people of the book in return for conditions like one of them having to pay jizya tax) following 7th century Islamic conquest. Some of the Palestinians are also descended from Arabs that came from Arabian peninsula after 7th century Islamic conquest. In that case they still have a longer continuous residence in Palestine since at time of first aliya in 1882 8% of population in Palestine was Jewish.
You are also claim that if Israel conducted wars like Arabs do Israelis would kill all of the Palestinians when the conduct of Arab regular armies during wars of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 were just as bad if not worse than the Israeli side. This was partly due to Israelis being a better position to do atrocities since for most of the wars except 1973 they overran more enemy positions and villages. During 1948 war there were more than a dozen massacres by Israeli troops; (this is from American, British, Israeli, and UN sources). There were cases of expulsion most of them after Arab armies invaded following Israel's declaration of independence causing activation of plan d which allowed for expulsion of Arabs in villages deemed hostile; however there were no central plan to expel all Arabs. The Arab side committed three massacres during the war, two of them in response to Israeli atrocities. During the 1948 war the Arabs overran less than a dozen Jewish communities ; in all of the communities its inhabitants were expelled and most of their buildings razed. During 1956 war the IDF killed five hundred civilians with circumstance disputed they were killed either in actual combat or massacres. Treatment of POW's by both sides during these wars have been poor. Execution of POW's by both occurred during 48 war partially due to either side couldn't legally hold prisoners until after May 1948 since Britain was nominal power in Palestine until withdrawal from Palestine and neither side had facilities to hold large amount of prisoners. During 1956, 1967, and 1973 wars there were reports of execution of Egyptian POW's. During 1973 war when the Egyptians overrun the bar-lev line in Suez canal and the Syrians part of Golan Heights surrendering Israelis and POW's were shot along with Israeli pilots downed on both fronts.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html
http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/arab-israeli-war/
http://www.ibric.org/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

 

Balloney... Just prove it for the sake of the discussion.

BTW 3 Billion aid in military hardware is an interstate agreement no relations to your desires or mine.

 

"According to Amnon Rubinstein, a backer of the citizenship law, there are many international precedents for banning citizens of an enemy country in wartime, and with Hamas, which runs the Palestinian Authority, refusing to recognize Israel, that label applies to the Palestinian Authority.

Palestine and Israel are not sovereign states warring against each other; Israel occupies Palestine, in violation of international law, so your propaganda regarding "enemy country" is even less credible that your contention Hamas runs the PA.

"Since the Hamas-Fatah split in 2007, the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority, based in areas of the West Bank had stabilized, though no significant economic growth had been achieved. Politically, until 2012, there had also been no progress in promotion of PNA status in the UN, as well as no progress in negotiations with Israel.

"Ramallah-based Palestinian Authority stayed out of the Gaza War in 2008–2009, which followed the six-month truce, between Hamas and Israel which ended on 19 December 2008.[38][39][40] Hamas claimed that Israel broke the truce on 4 November 2008,[41][42] though Israel blamed Hamas for an increasing rocket fire directed at southern Israeli towns and cities.[43] The 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict began on 27 December 2008 (11:30 a.m. local time; 9:30 am UTC).[44] Though condemning Israel over attacks on Gaza, the Palestinian Authority erected no actions during the conflict of Israel with Hamas."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority#Two_administrations_.282007.E2.80.932013.29

 

Blagh, blagh, blagh...
If you did not have that copy and paste... what would you have done? Play Pinnacle?

 

The most outrageous prevarication.
Israel is a sovereign state for the past 67 years and is a full member of the UN.

 

Since you apparently didn't read my post which prove they have longer continuous presence. Dna tests show part to majority of Palestinians are descended from Jews and Christians living in Palestine at time of Islamic conquest that converted to Islam after conquest. Some of the Palestinians are descended from Arab tribes that immigrated to Palestine during first millennium ad. In either case the fact is that are populations that have lived in Palestine than most Israelis since if they are Ashkenazi they are descended from Jews that fled to Palestine since first aliya during 1880's(again in 1882 8% of population in Palestine was Jews and was still a minority as late as 1946) and if they are Mizrahi/Sephardic Jews most of them came to Israel after fleeing/expelled from Arab countries after 1948. Jews and Palestinians do share 18% of chromosomes, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are also more closely related to Arabs from Lebanon than to Czechoslovakians. However that is not the same as living in an area continuously which Jews as majority of population in Palestine hasn't since 5th century B.C. This is due to combination of factors like persecution of Jews especially after rebelling twice by the Romans, conversations to Christianity and Islam after the 6th conquest which again part to majority of Palestinians are descended from those population. No matter how many times you deny it these are the facts. If you predictably are going to falsely say this means I'm saying Jews don't have a right to live in Israel;that's not what I'm saying at all. Obliviously Jews have a right to live in Israel and Israel has a right to exist. It doesn't have a right to be an apartheid state by denying citizenship to Palestinians in West Bank and I don't want Israel to turn into a bi-national or another Arab state.
http://archive.iussp.org/Brazil2001/s60/S64_02_dellapergola.pdf pg 5 of report shows by 5th century Jews lost their majority.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html
http://www.ibric.org/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

The 3 billion dollars in military aid is an agreement that should be changed not that it will since America shouldn't be spending billions on Israel while it still commits grave human right violations.

 

It's actually not 'aid', and in fact a rip off from a financial standpoint, given the facilities, maintenance, and stockpiles Israel maintains to provide full logistical support for American and some NATO militaries, and not even including the services provided by the Israeli versions of AWACS intelligence coverage. The myth that this is all 'free money' is ridiculous nonsense. It is the most stable democratic country within the ME, and well worth supporting for that reason alone. It is worth 4-5 times $3 billion.

 

<Mod Edit>

In other ways you think that the Arab conquest of the seventh Century is <ligit> and Jews and other minorities i.e. Assyrian, Mesopotamian, and Christians of Lebanon have no right to <self determination> i.e Andalous = Spain that got rid of the <Arab Conqueror> after 899 years of subjugation?... There is a problem here go read history!

 

yes, possible rematch.

not sure what will spark it thiough

 

Something like this, perhaps?
From last week.

"An Israeli war plane struck a remote area in Lebanon&#8217;s western Bekaa region to destroy a downed Israeli drone, a Hezbollah-run television channel has said.

"An Israeli military spokeswoman declined to comment when asked about the explosion, which was reported by al-Manar television.

"A Lebanese security source told Reuters that the cause of the blast, which occurred in a mountainous area near the town of Saghbein, was 'still not 100% clear but most probably it was an Israeli air strike to destroy their drone'. It was not clear whether there were casualties.

"Last year Israel remotely detonated a spying device that was planted near a main road in south Lebanon after it was discovered by Hezbollah. That blast killed a Hezbollah member, and the militant group responded by detonating a bomb on Lebanon&#8217;s border with Israel, wounding two Israeli soldiers."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/21/explosion-in-lebanons-western-bekaa-region-was-israel-destroying-drone

 

"In regards to human rights, section 502B of the FAA, enacted in 1974 and strengthened in 1976, states that Congress can block FMF funding to a government if it believes the country has engaged 'in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights.' Such violations are defined as the 'torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment, prolonged detention without charges and trial, causing the disappearance of persons by the abduction and clandestine detention of those persons, and other flagrant denial of the right to life, liberty or the security of person.'"
Israel is a poster child for human rights abuses; only the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World would feel morally justified in arming its war crimes in Palestine.

http://www.peaceeducationfund.org/the-arms-trade/small-arms-and-light-weapons/report-u.s.-weapons-sales-to-human-rights-abusing-governments.html

 

Not surprisingly you don't respond with any facts and accuse me of being bias when you constantly show bias by denying that Israeli side have committed wrongs throughout the conflict . I never said Jews and other minorities like Assyrian, Mesopotamian(from what I understand Mesopotamian isn't an ethnic group it's an ancient name for an area in the middle east covering Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of Iran), and Christians. I never called 7th century Islamic conquest legit. I simply noted that it's a fact that dna tests show part to majority of Palestinian population descended from Jews and Christians living in Palestine at time of Islamic conquest. During that time period due to lack of international law right of conquest was considered legit for that time period. The reconquest of Spain from Arab rule in 1492 is not a valid comparison as this was before international law and nation states(the reconquest of Spain was part of Spain becoming a nation state with unification of Castile and Aragon thrones through marriage of Isabella Castille and Ferninand of Aragon) which started after treaty of Westphalia in 1648.

 

Doubt it. As long as Hezbollah's chief patron, Assad is fighting for it's life, they don't want to be wasting their fighters fighting against Israel when they could be used to prop up Assad. Some members of the Syrian opposition have said that they support peace with Israel which would cut off main route of weapons that Hezbollah gets from Iran.

 

Poster child for human right abuses? While Israel certainly is committing human right abuses and has committed a lot more in the past especially 1950's and 1980's; it's a bit excessive to call it poster child of human right abuses considering how many abusive regimes there are in the world. Many of them much worse than Israel like Russia(historically probably the worst), North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia,etc. are the poster child for human right abuses. Of Western countries, Israel could be argued the worst especially since occupation has been ongoing for nearly five decades. However, that is not the same thing as an exaggerated statement like Israel is the poster child of human right abuses.

 

Where do you rank the US government when it comes to human rights abuse? The Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World has been responsible for the murder, maiming, and displacement of millions of innocent human beings since 1945.