Intelligent Design Argument Fails Again

I didn't say that. You're simply talking in modern terms with 'classified'. Ancient times were completely different. You want to read up a bit. There were no classified libraries, classified documents, safety deposit boxes.. Sure people are not always to be trusted, not always truthful. But Kings and Emperors in ancient times were Autocratic leaders, in complete control. They did not have to account to the people for their actions or persuade them to go to war. The people did what they were told. If they were told to fight they didn't question why! They fought. If they were told to anything upon the kings command - they didn't question why! They did it. If they didn't - they died.

If you don't understand that you should read ancient Middle East History.

 

Dated with what and how do you know its the correct date?

I quoted from a mainstream site that said that in its early life the earth was flooded. What evidence do you have that it wasn't? Your ignorant opinion?

 

don't pretend to be ignorant

paleontology, dating method used etc.

your source did not say the entire earth was flooded.

 

Do you have evidence for this? Also the Egyptians believed that humans came from slime while Moses wrote that God created man.

Yes there is.


http://crossexamined.org/review-patterns-evidence-exodus/

https://answersingenesis.org/reviews/movies/movie-review-patterns-of-evidence-exodus/

To preserve it. Just like we don't modernize Shakespeare's plays. We use the style of which its written.

Again, evidence?

Sure I can. It's just that its you who is claiming that he didn't exist. The one with the claim is the one with the burden of proof. Now if I've stated that Moses indeed existed first then it'll be up to me to prove that.

Could you find the reference?

Maybe it moved in a zigzag pattern giving the people depth perception.

It doesn't really matter the likelyhood of it happening if the evidence shows that it did indeed happened. It's like someone in a battle field charging a machine gun best and managing to dodge every bullet. That is almost impossible but if the evidence show that indeed happened then it doesn't matter what the odds are.

They stopped for days at a time so they didn't pitch every night.

And it's impossible for the Red Sea to split without some miracle either.

Yet for a long time people mocked and said the Hittites never existed.

I can but like I said before you're the one with the claim.

Not really.

 

I'm not. I know for a fact that they use the geologic column, index fossils, and radioisotope dating to get their results and each of them are flawed and based on circular reasoning.

How do you know how old the fossil is? By knowing which layer it came from. How do you know how old the layer is? By using radioisotope dating. How do you know that its accurate and the rate of radiation hasn't changed over time? Because the dates (that are published) match the dates of the fossils.

See above.

Yes it did. It said at most only 3% of the world was above sea level. I would call that as the entire world being flooded. And who's to say that at some point that 3% of land wasn't also covered according to your timeline?

 

Of course you are. You know it has been shown beyond any doubt the age of dinosaurs. So to claim they are only 6,000 years old is beyond moronic.

Refuted above.

No it didn't, and you know it didn't because you just admitted it.

 

No what I got was an arrogant response of "because I said so". You didnt provide any links whatsoever. You didn't even addressed the issues I raised in the last post.

"Because I say so" isn't a refutation.

Where?

 

I did address it. Paleontology proves you wrong. If you want to make the moronic claim they are only 6,000 years old you need to prove paleontology wrong. Good luck, lol.



"

I agree. Which is why I actually refuted you using the science of paleontology

Back there

 

Read Egyptian Mythology. And 'Moses' didn't edit or write anything. He didn't exist.

The number of 'evidences' for the Exodus I've seen and read over the years don't convince me one iota. Many of them disagree with each other. Show me positive proof leading to 2.5 million Hebrews survivng 40 years in the desert. It's nonsense - and they didn't go through the Red Sea - it's the Reed Sea - which is marshland.

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Not possible for 2.5 million to survive for 'a few days' in one place. Water, food and cattle grazing for so many would prohibit this. Have you ever thought this through?

You can't, or you would. No-one ever has.

 

The History channel has a documentary on Moses and the exodus. What was thought to not exist, is now being researched again on new evidence. The History Channel explains how there is evidence for both Moses and the Exodus. Perhaps you should take that up with them.

And when it comes to the Great Flood, there is plenty of evidence for that as well. It's called water. And there is a massive abundance thereof.

 

There is no evidence for a Biblical Exodus of 2.5+ million people from Egypt. There have been 2 Exoduses from Egypt. One when the Hyksos were thrown out, and another when a group of people revolted and were also thrown out. There is plenty of evidence for Semites, Canaanites and other peoples entering and exiting Egypt. Usually to feed their flock in the fertile Nile Delta.

For Maccabee. Have you been to Jacksonville in your State? It has a population estimated around 900,000 people. Can you really imagine that number existing in a desert and scrubland - even without animals - for 40 years. Yet the Hebrews are supposed to have numbered about 3 times that. Wake up to reality. Every new theory, every new evidence depends on something. And that something will be disputed by someone else with other evidence to the contrary. I belong to the Biblical Archaeological Website. I have a book from them which has two items in it. One is by an author who 'proves' the Exodus. The other is by an author who 'disproves' it.

As to the Great flood. There is a lot of water on earth but it is calculated that there is only enough to raise the water level by somewhere just over 200 feet. Melting Glacial ice caps on land would contribute to this. Floating icecaps would not. Waters beneath the earth would not contribute at all if you know anything about the weight of water being heavier that air.

 

The windows of heaven were opened up, and the fountains of the deep burst opened. Man has not been to the springs of the deep, nor has an idea thereof. It is hidden as with a stone, and the great deep is frozen.

After a flood, does the water not recede? Man has only been so deep, the so called known center of the earth is by all accounts, "unknown". An educated guess, of course. But nonetheless, a guess.

A little outside the topic:

It is our Father in Heaven who has lead me to believe, that the earth and creation thereof, will never be understood by man. The highlighted, are one's of powerful statements.
Job 38King James Version (KJV)

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Job 38King James Version (KJV)

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Here it is obvious, that if a matter is not known, pretending so- is to darken counsel, to align people with false knowledge and to have acceptance thereof. The acceptance puts the pretender on a pedestal (high counsel). Extremely dishonest.

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
It is only the fear of the Lord, that allows the beginning of wisdom.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
No man was around at the creation of earth. As stated before, an educated guess is all we have, yet that's all it is. This is simply a result of not being there at the creation.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
This implies there is an indescribable amount of water that is unknown to man. It goes along with what Genesis tells us.
Genesis 1King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So before light or earth, there was waters (the great deep).
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
I have a hard time not believing this is also referring to man, an area in which we cannot go. Hitherto shall "thou" come but no further "and" here shall thy proud waves be stayed.

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
If the earth is a sphere, where are the ends of the earth.

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
We know there are indeed springs of the sea. But we have not entered therein.

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
If we was not there, we cannot know it all. And what we think we know, is merely a thought.

19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
Light is a path to God's house. It is unknown to man.

21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
Earth being entirely flooded is absolutely possible. It is only those who deny God that would say otherwise. Seriously, how is it not possible?

26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
No man can tell me they have understanding of all the waters on earth, and have my adherence.

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
How can one answer a matter, lest they know? We have never been to the inward parts of earth. But we allow and accept those (higher counsel) to teach our children, that they have complete understanding, and we must adhere to them for what is considered, "an education".

37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

 

Spring snowmelt from the Zagros Mountains combined with heavy April rains caused the Euphrates river to rise and flood an area 150 miles wide and 350 south to the Persian Gulf. It lasted 4 days and took place in 2900 BC.

 

JJR quote

You have no idea, do you. Think about it.

'The fountains of the deep' do exist. However they cannot come up to raise the level of water ON the earth. Water is heavier than air and is also affected by gravity. If the water did come up it would leave a vacuum or empty space. As water is heavier than air it would, with gravity to help it, immediately go back down to fill the space it had left. The only other option is for the roof of the empty space to fall and fill it in. If that happened then the level of the ocean floor would also fall and the level of ocean water would be the same as before.
Geysers are forced up by pressure, but as soon as they lose impetus they fall back to earth and soak back. Spring water comes out of the earth because the spring is lower than the source of water. Noahs Flood never happened.

 

That doesn't refute anything? If you're going to engage in a debate then engage. Don't say "XZY field proves you wrong", show me. I gave you a legitimate complaint about the methodology of how they date things and you essentially said "paleontology proves you wrong so there". Do you really think that's evidence?

What science?

Back where?

- - - Updated - - -

Wait a minute, where did you get the 2.5 million people? There were only 600,000.

 

Was looking for where did the 2.5 million Israelites came from and I found this.

http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-route-population-of-jews-hebrews.htm

 

Of course it does. You are trying to claim that dinosaurs are only 6,000 years old. In order to,prove this claim you must disprove several known scientific fields. Paleontology is only one.

Paleontology.

Back there
- - - Updated - - -

 

What do you want to believe? The article is full of lack of understanding of life in a desert. HOWEVER. It goes on to conclude that 2.5 - 3.5 Hebrews left Egypt.

Conclusion:
The population of the exodus was 600,000 men, excluding women and children. This would give us a grand total "head count" of between 1.5-2.5 million Hebrews who left Egypt.
An exodus population of 2.5 million causes no problems for space, since we have seen that large modern crowds can fit into very small places. While modern cities are far larger an area then the Exodus used, God huddled them under the cloud by miracle for protection.
We must reject outright, the false idea that "elep" means "clans" instead of the number "1000'. It trashes the reliability of the text of the Bible. All Bible translators render it 1000, not clans, and we see no reason to change it.
The redemption of the firstborn in Numbers 3:40-46 utterly trashes those who vainly attempt to bring the population of the exodus down to a few thousand from 3 million. The firstborn of Israel numbered 22,273 but the number of Levites numbered 22,000, so a "head tax" had to be paid for the difference of 273. This difference proves the numbers are to be interpreted, just as they appear in our bible.
The head tax of silver for the tabernacle in Exodus 38:24-29 proves the numbers are real as they read in the Bible and not to be reinterpreted using a formula that elep is a clan, rather than the number 1000. The total silver collected was: 100 talents plus 1,775 shekels. Since a talent equals 6000 bekas and one shekel equals 2 bekas, the total number of bekas is exactly 603,550. This proves that each of the 603,550 men counted in the census each gave one beka for a total of 603,550 or one beka per man. This kind of precision utterly refutes the idea that elep is a clan, as used in these numbers.
There is really no valid reason why we should question or reject the many clear and precise statements that there were 600,000 men (excluding women and children) who left Egypt. We have successfully refuted any counter arguments.
There is nothing in archeology that would cause us to question that the exodus population was 1.5 - 2.5 million.
God created the world in 6 literal 24 hour days. Noah built an ark for the global flood to house the animals God brought to him. Jonah was 3 days in the belly of a sea monster. Jesus rose from the dead after three days. There are 2.5 million Jews who left Egypt for the exodus. The Bible is God's inspired word. Trust it!

Which rather proves what I said. 2.5 million left Egypt.

 

No I don't. Paleontology can work just fine with a 6,000 year old earth. It's just that the dating methods are flawed. Please address my complaints. Please show me how they aren't depending on circular reasoning to come up with the dates they come up with.

All I object to is the dating methods. Address that.

Show me.

 

Ok, I concede that there were 2.5 million Israelites that left however I did give evidence that the exodus did in fact happened.

 

There is no proven evidence that the Exodus actually happened. There are many theories, explanations that contradict each other, and no-one has come up with a proven time of any Exodus. Tribes were entering and exiting Egypt all the time to feed their flocks. 2.5 million people COULD NOT exist in the desert under any circumstances. There is no evidence of any Pharaoh and his army drowning.
The story is written by people who had no idea of problems living in the desert. It's a story set in places that were known from the past.

If you know the history of the past, Palestine could not have supported 2.5 million invaders. and there were already inhabitants already there.

 

It clearly can't since we know beyond doubt the earth is 4.5 billion years old.

No, they aren't as has been proven to you over and over in dozens of threads.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/cardat.html

I have.

I'm not your daddy. You can search the thread yourself.

 

Yes there is evidence. Aside from the "patterns of evidence" that I linked to there is also evidence for the Red Sea crossing.


http://www.ronwyatt.com/red_sea_crossing.html

 

You are joking. Ron Wyatt was discredited years ago. His claims were so ridiculous. Have you read them?

Bible Scholars agree that the Bible is talking about the Reed Sea - a marshy land far north of the old supposed crossing. As it didn't happen, it really doesn't matter.

 

Did you know that a million man army marched from Ethiopia to Israel to fight King Asa and it didn't take them 40 years to get there?