Simply because not all pro-choicers think the birth is the point when personhood begins. There are other opinions besides birth and conception, when it comes to beginning of separate human person. External viability, or the appearance of brain waves for example.
Truth is it is EASIER to just (mis) characterise your opponent than it is to actually debate the points. Notice how, despite this thread being about the most highly controversial and emotive aspect of abortion there has been little said from the pro-lifers and that is because right up front it talks about late term abortion for severe congenital deformity - the most common reason for late term abortion
Late term abortions are covered up all over the country and they happen for just about any reason imaginable. In fact this past year three I know of were closed. If you want specifics I can send them. One was in Michigan, one in LA and one in New Mexico. So we do not even know just how many are done on women who simply just want to kill their child. If you look at the health side of abortion….Guttmaucher (pro-abortion site) says that less than 1% are done to save the mothers life. In a country when millions are killed every year….that is no more than a handful. The majority of abortions are done for reasons other than health. In most cases both mother and child can be saved. This is the thing about late term abortion. The pro-choice position is all about rights. The woman's rights trump that which is living inside the womb. They say its a hard decision. What is so hard about deciding to abort? They know what it kills…but they say its the woman's body….and she should not be forced to continue on with a pregnancy she does not want. THEN………what happens to these rights? Some pro-choicers say no…the woman should lose rights somewhere around…..20 30 weeks…..they have no clue when viability starts….but they guesstimate. So she owns her body…but she doesn't. It makes no sense it is a hypocritical stance……they all should be standing up for late term abortions……..ITS THE WOMANS BODY HER DECISION…REMEMBER? They tell me I should keep my mouth shut…that my morals…and what I think is not an issue. And then they do the same thing down the road…..when they enslave the woman.
Hmmm probably taken off some anonymous website further over the conspiracy nutcase horizon than even the Westboro Church Those are the figures for all abortion - not late term abortion there is a very real difference This is the thing about late term abortion. Again a (mis) characterisation - assigning characteristics to your opposition which are not either valid nor true. And once again you are missing the point of the OP which was to discuss late term abortion for severe congenital abnormality Empty hyperbole
Abortion is so empowering isn't it? Our bodies, our selves...unless we decide to bring a baby to term in which case the voiceless male is on the hook for child support.
So should have the dominant female. She's the sole decisionmaker. Her absolute contorl and power do not diminish her obligation to use contraceptives. The voiceless man's obligation to use contraceptives is no greater than that of the dominant female. She has total power and control. The male has none, but he does have obligations if she so decides. There are consequences that flow from disempowering men. Getting married no longer makes sense for many males.
And she does take responsibility - and to prove that look at how many contraceptive options there are for women and compare that to how many are available to men. Unfortunately contraception is rarely 100% - which is why BOTH should use it Although a lot could be said for mandatory male sterilisation. Get men to donor sperm and then be sterilised - they then can have all the nooky they want, choose a woman willing to bring a child to term and negotiate with her Problem solved
Why doesn't the female mantis simply rip out the man's sex organs, and preserve them for her later use. After all, only women are important, not men.
And why are we not discussing the topic of this thread which was abortion for gross congenital abnormality?
Bowerbird said, Do you think the pro-death side would want this in the news? LMAO I mean come on. This was a huge center and now its closed which was a victory for my side. I have no doubt however the scum ball who operated it will slither somewhere else to do his slaughtering….but this one was closed down. Two in Michigan closed. http://www.operationrescue.org/arch...ial-birth-abortions-were-invented-has-closed/ This is not late term abortion…but in my state we had many victories. Three Planned Parenthoods closed down because of harder laws against abortion. http://liveaction.org/blog/victory-...abortions-at-7-arizona-locations-in-3-cities/ http://www.jillstanek.com/2011/11/judge-permanently-closes-two-michigan-late-term-abortion-clinics/ You do it to me all the time. LOL You associated me with the Westboro Baptist group, a group I think is very much satanic. And you don't get it either. I am against abortion. And that goes for anything living in the womb that does not kill the woman. If a child had severe congenital abnormalities…it is going to die anyway. To kill it before its time is the same thing as killing a healthy unborn. So I am against late term abortion for this reason….including what the OP piece is all about. Killing is killing.
To return to the topic of the thread, around 62 % of the US population is pro-choice, but only 10 % support third trimester abortions being legal. I have the same view. Also, third trimester abortions are not protected by Roe vs. Wade. So instead of pointless personhood initiatives that will never be implemented, maybe the pro-life side should concentrate on fight against third trimester abortions, I think thats where they have very good odds of success.
I have never been polled in my life, have you? There is absolutely no way for any polling organization to say this…let alone you. But for (*)(*)(*)(*)s and giggles…where did your stats come from? You are ignorant of the pro-life position. We believe unlike your side that a life is a life….and that life starts at conception. We believe it is human and that it is a person. Your side has no idea when it becomes a person….18 weeks…..19? 21? 23? even until birth some on your side believe its not a person until birth. So for us all abortion probably excluding death to the mother…which almost never happens…is all wrong. Late term is just as wrong as one at 2-3-4-5-6-7-8 weeks….etc. Why is that so hard for your side to get? We fight all abortion….certainly late term…which your side should be working hard at making legal…so that women have the rights to their bodies throughout the entire pregnancy. Why don't you work as hard to make late term abortion legal as you do abortions earlier? Don't you believe the woman should control her own body? LOL
My stats are from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#By_trimester_of_pregnancy I understand the pro-life position, I am simply pointing out where the real gains could be made for pro-life movement (and also most of pro-choice, as only a tiny minority support late-term abortions).
you did not answer my question…...Why don't you work as hard to make late term abortion legal as you do abortions earlier? Don't you believe the woman should control her own body?
Bowerbird, Women who obtain late term abortions for anything other than dire medical reasons are committing infanticide and are thus profoundly immoral people. They are beyond the pale. Society should ostracize them.
Late term abortions are immoral unless the life of the mother is threatened physically. Mental anguish is an insufficient reason for a late term abortion. Except as provided in the preceding sentence late term abortions should be criminalized as a form of illegal homicide.
I wonder how often late term abortions are performed for reasons other than the health of the mother?
What about the ones who do the killing. If there were not doctors who will perform them….the majority would not happen. Anyone connect…and that goes for the one who takes the money….the nurses that help…they all should be held accountable.
Last year many high profile late term abortion clinics were closed down around the country. Before Roe…illegal abortions were done. Planned Parenthood states that the illegal abortions done…were done in reputable doctors offices, the majority were not in back alleys. If that is true…then I would suspect that is the case with late term abortions today. The definition of "mothers health" is broad…and any doctor could do a late term abortion for any reason…he finds suitable. Tiller was known for doing late term abortions and today the clinic is closed. They obviously could not find anyone to take his place. This is an area where no statistical chart is accurate…because there is massive coverup on the part of the ones doing the killing. PP, the media…you name it…try to hide what really goes on. And in the case of malpractice…death of woman, injury….it is settled before even going to trial. Why? Because what family wants their daughters, sisters, mothers…name associated with abortion? And what doctor wants his reputation on the line…? When you go to Guttmaucher Institute….and read the stats they have compiled there…who knows how accurate they are. Most women who get abortions DO NOT ADMIT IT TO ANYONE. There is no way of knowing the true numbers.
Because after 5th month, there are two persons IMHO, not just one - the woman. Personhood for me starts at the appearance of brain waves (presence of mind). Abortion after 5th month would kill another person. Abortion before that does not.
Do you think they would NOT want it on the news given the high "sale rate" of conflict over issues like this?? LMAO I mean come on. Rule for finding the truth in life - if someone is telling you that "they" are "covering things up" I would a) not believe them and b) discretely inquires as to which anti-paranoia medication they are on and suggest an increase in the dosage. Cover ups never last long as it is human nature to reveal secrets Which does not support your claim Real difference between thee and me? I do not believe that a woman who has already carried a child beyond the 24 week mark of viability would just frivolously decide she is sick of being pregnant and have an abortion. Late term abortions are not risk free (admittedly neither is pregnancy and childbirth) and are RARE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy I have worked in units caring for mothers with complications of pregnancy and in the vast majority of cases we will either induce early labour or do a caesarian and where your statistics fail is that when that is done and the child dies because of complications associated with prematurity that is not considered an abortion. Yet it actually is - it was the child's life or the mothers. There is very very little actual statistics on late term abortion and almost nothing in America so called "pro-life" groups have made it dangerous to even mention the words But here are some stats from Australia http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/30997
Really - the number of "late term abortion clinics" seems to have risen just in the space of this thread from three to "many" The truth is you have no proof that late term abortions occur in the numbers you are suggesting. Figures from areas where there is no restriction legally and the "voice" of the "pro-lifers" is not so vociferous suggests otherwise. Late term abortion remains a rare phenomena
Bowerbird said, No it has not. Google this and you will see what I am talking about. Three in Michigan closed. A huge one in LA…one in New Mexico…and many others have been ordered closed but have not done so. Google….step out of your small box. Those I mention are high profile clinics that have been investigated and have been shown they are not following the law. So it only make sense that there are others no one knows about. Operation Rescue…Life Dynamics…go undercover and they have exposed a lot. What number did I put on the table? I didn't. I am saying that they go on and that statistics CANT ADDRESS THIS. You can't say that…you have no way of knowing. It is not rare and if you worked in this business and did research…you would know. Read the book LIME 5…..it documents actual clinics and court cases of late terms all over…deaths….etc. The actual court doc numbers are published. You have no clue.
