Libs, did you have this moment in your life that partially caused you to be liberal?

These were classical liberals, not he present day statist liberals.

 

Dude, I get it, although I know I'm not gonna get one word inside your brain, I'm gonna say something anyway:

Oh god not a movie. How's a movie has anything to do with anything? Well maybe it's because you guys didn't have video games or internet back then. Point is, I've seen Jane Fonda stripped out of her neat little space suit a couple of times, didn't make me a commie or an astronaut.

Hippies ≠ liberals. A lot of hippies became successful business CEOs. A lot of them became B-list celebrities.

God.

Theeer God. Look, I know you had a bad time with a republican that probably made you suffered more than anyone could imagine, that doesn't necessarily has to cloud your judgement. Was he religious too? You must be atheist then? Was he poor? You must be loaded then?

Why were you in the army? Were you drafted? Look, the whole draft thing started by Kennedy.

Yea, I don't understand why you guys hate him so much. Are all liberals families and relatives of an air-traffic-controller?

He revitalized the US economy, cut nuclear arsenal of both two superpowers with a significant amount, ended the cold war and balanced the budget buy CUTTING TAXES to generate more tax revenue.

...A lot of those hope being false or malignant, CRA for example.

Put things into perspective a little bit, do you think you are somewhat extreme?

Actually, to be honest, most happy 'n' nice people that I met are apolitical. I'm not gonna say I understand you frustration with cons, I just think your political views are more emotionally based than rationally based.

You might consider open up a bit, just a little.

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And by that, you mean liberals?

 

Statist liberals is a loaded term. Try progressives, modern liberals, or social liberals on for size to describe contemporary ideologues who hold government in a greater light to promote political, economic, and social reform and justice.

 

If you were being satirical, you are darn good at it. I mean holy handbasket did you say "Kindergarten"?

 

Okay I don't mean that I took advanced math in Kindergarten. I should say that I was ahead of the other children and I had math and science skills in what you would consider to be grade school.

No I'm not kidding. My mom was strict when I was little. My mom had me recite word and math Flash cards every day. I had a cup with a map of the world and whenever I was thirsty my mom made me recite the names of the continents before I could get a drink. Instead of having stories read to me, I had to learn to read books.

I entered Kindergarten at age 4 instead of the standard 5 years old at my own request because I was jealous that my older cousins were going to school and I wasn't. My mom later told me that the school interviewer was particularly impressed with my existing knowledge.

I was withdrawn from public school in the middle of the 2nd grade. My mom got home-school materials and video lectures imported from the state of Oregon and I had a daily math drill. I also had workbooks in Math, Social Studies, Science, English Language, and other subjects.

Later, in the 1980s and 90s, after we found out that PBS was running non-stop educational programming each school day (the real education such as the samples shown on the AIT PROGRAMS (PBS) tribute page, not the toddler focus they do today), my entire morning 9a.m. to noon was spent watching educational TV, on a variety of subjects from basic math and language skills up though critical thinking, science, and trigonometry.

 

It's the responsibility of a citizen to pay tax. Paying taxes is like paying for services rendered by America. Kind of like rent.

Cut the unnecessary spending first, then the tax.

Anyway, the point is I didn't become a liberal because there I can get more stuff from government. Free things are rarely of high quality. And to me, best or bust.

Libertarianism makes no sense to me. People aren't responsible enough for libertarianism. A libertarian society just wouldn't last very long.

 

Oh look, it's the PF Dr. Phil.

 

Yeah, and he's just one Dr. among many that you could use immediately.

 

It's too late for us, but if you want to save the younger generations from this waste and also get even with those who caused it, check out abeautifulmind.proboards.com

 

Ehy you know what? I gave up, I didn't get my hopes up in the first place. You became liberal because of emotional reasons. It's pretty impossible to drill even one shred of rationalism into ya.

 

So, an American is just a MF lodger to you liberals. Who are the hosts, then? Greasy pigs in the gubberment of course.

You know I just can't argue with this kind of self-denigration. I really don't know I should cry for having such... self-loathing? Moronic? Naive? Compatriots, or just LOL at the irony of reality.

Define "unnecessary spending". To liberals, "unnecessary spending" means having 110+ bases all around the world and maintain a coldwar-time battle readiness in the Army, Navy, AF and Marines. To Cons, "unnecessary spending" means giving one penny to moochers and slackers.

To libertarian, all of those. To the government, none of those.

You mean EBT card? And free healthcare?

Hahaha, do you even know what Libertarianism means?

 

So you were indoctrinated as a schoolchild into believing that America is bestest. Subsequent contact with reality should have shown that to be a ludicrous piece of nationalist propaganda. The question then becomes how did you not recognise the obvious?

 

Can't blame ya there pal. I could use a new one myself. Actually, I'm switching from Conservatism to Liberalism for that free Obamaphone! If I can eventually make it all the way to Progressivism, I may even be able to swing an EBT card, too! But that's just a goal to pursue.

 

Absolutely not the case. I have worked very hard for what I have, I live well within my means, save money, When my wife was laid off, we did collect her unemployment and did avail ourselves of a government retraining program for her, but other than that we have not used government programs. I pay about 10% of my income in Federal Income tax, and have for much of my life so I have contributed much more to the government than I have ever collected. (I'm in my 60's and still working). I am a liberal for the following reasons.

Republicans for most of my life have only had the interests of the wealthiest and most powerful in their policies. They have pushed a social conservative agenda which I find abhorrent, they have involved us in war after war to no good cause. They have done everything they could to prevent sound regulations protecting the environment, if it were up to them our air pollution would look like it does in Bejing and our rivers and streams would be poisoned, If it were up to them the vast majority would not have access to affordable health care. As it is they have promoted policies that will leave roughly 40 to 50% of retiree's living at near poverty level, and would reduce them to poverty level. They have imposed so called right to work laws which really do nothing but create a race to the bottom in wages for workers. It is no coincidence that of the 10 states with the highest poverty rates, 8 of them are also right to work states or that those states also have the highest percentage of people without access to affordable health care. In no other advanced nation do people have to worry about facing bankruptcy if they get sick, even if they have health insurance. I could go on, but you get my drift.

 

Fukk you dikk hed! Leftists WANT TO WORK HARD! WE WANT JOBS, not "free stuff"...But we aren't DUM--ASSSES like conservatives, willing to just fight for the table scraps of the 1%, we want to WORK HARD to TAKE a BIGGER CUT. Yup, we see those countries where SMART people succeeded in TAKING a bigger cut and hate the DUM-ASSS **********s who just want to submit and kisss the MASSASSS butt!

 

I think you have to be careful in using forgein studies to understand American politics. British conservatives and American Conservatives don't believe in the same thing, nor do British and American liberals. Tony Blair would be a Liberal in America, so to use a British study to explain American Conservatives doesn't work. Political labels are cultural constructs, and they don't mean the same thing everywhere. Russian Conservatives would be Marxists.

 

You know perfectly well that the employers form an unelected government. They waste the money we make for them far more than the government ever has, with their trophy wives and other degenerate luxuries. To claim that you have freedom at work and that only the government controls you indicates denial. You want to justify your cowardly and shameful slavery to your bosses by pretending to be a defiant rebel against the government. We don't need citizens like you. Go back to the crumbling castles of Europe where you belong and grovel like a gutless peasant in your worship of spoiled leeching guillotine-fodder.

 

You tell them, brother. I'd say more but the prudes will probably delete your post.

 

Could you have given this thread a more awkward title?

 

With trickle-down oinkonomics, you're in a nation whose economy is modeled on urination.

 

In response to the OP... no, that is not the case. My experiences are probably very atypical, but if you are genuinely interested in hearing about it I’ve got a bit of a narrative for how I got to where I am today, in terms of politics.

tl;dr version: I was disenchanted by how ****ed up the world looked, foolishly radicalized for lack of wisdom and knowledge, gained new and moderating insights with age, and found a more prudent compromise between preserving what is great about the U.S. and taking bold steps to return it to the forefront of experimentally combining human rights with limited government. Mine is an eternal quest to achieve a more perfect union.

Otherwise, if you want the full spiel...

I was told and taught the U.S. is the best country in the world in a wide variety of ways. But then as I continued to learn on my own, I found that U.S. history is rife with privileged social groups lording over and abusing their subjugated counterparts - whether it was women under men, slaves under slave owners, Blacks under Whites, Native Americans under European immigrants, laborers under employers, non-believers and those with minority religions under Protestant Christians, or deviants under conformists. Freedom in America seemed to mean having the right to take what one wants, however one wants. If you came out on top, it worked out for the best and the law would serve to protect your interests! And if you did not well... then whatever; it sucks to be you. Property rights matter more than merit or human dignity!

This seemed to apply at both the macro and micro scale. Looking at the big picture, the wealthiest and most powerful countries appeared to bully around and take advantage of their weaker, poorer brothers and sisters on a regular basis and find all sorts of ways to justify it to onlookers. At the most basic of levels, likewise, for many years I was verbally and emotionally abused by my peers, suffered social exclusion, was punished by adults for standing up to and retaliating against school bullies, and in the end spent about decade mired in depression and conditioned helplessness rather than enjoying what most people would consider a normal childhood. I learned that, although I have the right to “be myself” on paper, in practice doing so is an open invitation to be attacked by ones countrymen and coerced into either submission and silence or a return to complete, unquestioning conformity.

So the way I saw it, society is structured to by elites to promote such abuse and injustices because it keeps them in positions of privilege and power. Some personal problems are ones own fault but many others are social in origin. I settled into Trotskyism and felt the world would be a better place once all the downtrodden folk worldwide could be liberated from their positions of subjugation - and their exploiters purged - via campaigns of overwhelming violence. Under communism the people would no longer be divided by class and other destructive social hierarchies, they would treat one another with respect, act to promote one another’s wellness, and live in peace and solidarity by virtue of us all fundamentally having similar aspirations as human beings. Having no more hunger, homelessness, enslavement, alienation, etc. seemed like a great idea, and immersing myself in Soviet propaganda and studying what went wrong with their system served to cement my perception of the U.S. as an evil empire masquerading as a utopian land of freedom.

In college I learned enough about political theory, economics, history, etc. to realize that having a totalitarian method of transition to communism was a terrible idea. Eventually the ideology began to look like rubbish so I shifted from the far left to centre - fancying the Nordic Model of social democracy as a compromise that can have the best of capitalism and socialism without suffering the most extreme setbacks of and nasty cultural tendencies apparently prone to developing within either system. It was at this time I also shifted from being a cultural imperialist hell-bent on destroying religion and primitive cultures from the world to being a multiculturalist who sees value in helping preserve and cherish other ways of life - regardless of whether I personally adopt those customs. My attitudes were further amended after dozens of long discussions and debates with my peers at the predominately-conservative university where I majored in political science.

After receiving my degree I set about writing a book on political philosophy that is still in the works, and along the way have continued to discuss political topics on several forums and learn more off to the side via academic journals. For awhile I shifted left to a liberal (e.g. constitutionalism, rule of law, limited government, federalism, checks and balances, separation of powers, market economy, the ability of individuals to freely pursue their interests) variant of democratic socialism. I reached a middle ground between socialism and classical liberalism so evenhanded that I could not figure out which side I leaned closer toward until fairly recently, when I decided the latter exerts a greater influence on my thinking. Though I still object to the lack of sufficient empathy, kindness, compassion, and fairness in the moral compass of many of our leaders and governing institutions, my perception of why injustices occur around the world is now much less clouded by ideological dogma. Perhaps this contributes to my inability to easily fit in well with most U.S. “liberals” or socialists - neither of which I consider very reasonable on a number of issues.

At present, I am a liberal insofar as I strongly emphasize the moral importance of compassion and fairness over in-group loyalty, respect for authority, and purity. I reckon class struggle, heavy regulation of business, state ownership of many industries, treating citizens like they’re kids in need of a micromanaging parent, and unconditional support for unions are bad ideas... yet also believe redistribution, a social democratic welfare regime, and some limitations to private property rights are conducive to the best interests of the individual and general public alike. As a compromise, I feel that the morality of socialism should be combined with the machinery of capitalism to achieve moderate but nonetheless practical, satisfactory results. And in the spirit of liberalism I want to decentralize authority in matters of government, faith, and business while upholding a list of rights and liberties that both reflect the overarching principles binding our society and empower the individual by protecting them from threats of oppression.

It would take me a very long time to explain all of my positions and why I currently adhere to them, but I can assure you the prospect of having to work hard to earn a luxurious standard of living as a young person had nothing at all to do with it. Envy has nothing to do with it either. It is all about caring when others have been wronged and trying to set up a system which protects us all against the recurrence of enough of those wrongs to ensure everyone who wants to enjoy pleasant, dignified lives have ample opportunities to make that happen for their selves.

Conservatives care about those who suffer and want people to be able to find success in life too, of course, but we don’t always see eye to eye on which problems get in the way or how best to address them.

In response to thediplomat2.0’s postings, I happen to share his fondness of social contract theory. On the other hand, my libertarian and anarchical tendencies are probably less pronounced than his. In terms of philosophical influences, among them are Locke, Rousseau, Madison, Rawls, and Bourdieu. Not all of these are liberal sources of influence; it is worth bearing in mind that I have adopted ideas from several different schools of thought and toiled to piece them all together, ultimately reaching a result that resembles social liberalism.

 

Well I never thought of Americans as lodgers, but since you said it, it kind of makes sense. Nations are places for people to stay and do things.

And it isn't anything like self hating, but just being grateful in general.

Our welfare feed poor people and keep them alive.
Our armies overseas kill innocent people, make them hate us and further put our safety at risk.

You have to be a good person to think the former is necessary; a bad and stupid person to think the latter is necessary.

I don't know. Like I said I've never been on welfare. I just assume the quality is worse since they are free.

I get the basic idea.

 

Dude LOL whatever the F you are smoking let me get sum'

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You wanna work hard? Then work hard! What, you need government paycheck to work hard or something?

My God you guys are weird and illogical.

 

Sure, how 'bout dis one:

Libbies, did you become a liberal for the lust for freebies?

 

Quite interesting considering someone posted a thread here recently citing a study which had concluded that conservatives actually determine morality based on a more complex system of thought than liberals. I'll see if I can dig it up for you. It wasn't anything most of us didn't already know, but apparently it might be news to you.

LOL! This explains so much about your posts. You're still a crusty old hippie stuck in the '60s. The times have changed a lot, man. Maybe you should too.

Sad thing is, this could actually be true. Because a lot of you guys actually do work hard already. You just work hard at the wrong things. If you worked as hard at bettering yourselves as you do at fighting the system, you'd have everything you ever wanted. It takes an insane amount of energy and commitment to impact social change. And you have no doubt changed the culture over the last 50 years. But if you want a look at what you could have been if you had chosen to simply work toward self improvement instead, just take a look at the rich and successful Republicans. That could have just as easily been you. You just chose to put your eggs in the wrong basket. It's not too late to change course. Just something to consider.