Mass gains of Antarctic ice greater than losses.

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by DennisTate, May 12, 2019.

?

Has the addition of H2O to parts of Antarctica saved us so far from rising ocean levels?

  1. No

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  3. Possibly.... I will research this further???

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    New Study: Southern Hemisphere Sea Ice Now Extends ~80 km Farther North Than Prior Estimates
    By Kenneth Richard on 10. May 2021

    Share this...
    It was previously thought the northern limit for Southern Hemisphere sea ice was 55°S. But recent declines in surface air temperatures in southernmost South America have led to sea ice formation creeping 80 to 100 kilometers further north than previous estimates. Since 2000, sea ice has been extending well into 54°S.
    The southernmost tip of South America has experienced rapid cooling in the last several centuries. In “the most recent decades” the climate has deteriorated to the coldest sea surface temperatures of the last 10,000 years (Bertrand et al., 2017). . . .
    A new study (Salame et al., 2021) reports Southern Hemisphere sea ice has been creeping so far northwards since 2000 it now extends well into the 54°S southern Chilean fjords, perhaps 80 to 100 km further north than the NSIDC’s previous extension limit estimates (55°S). . . .
     
    Sunsettommy likes this.
  2. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    6,349
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The problem with your implied "Volcanoes are what's really melting the ice!" theory is that there's no evidence to back it up.

    Yes, you showed that there's _a_ small volcano there. But you haven't shown that it's anything new. Everyone knows there are a few small volcanoes under the ice. Lots of dead volcanoes, but only a few active rifts at any given time.

    Your theory would require there was a recent massive ongoing outbreak of vulcanism under the ice. After all, it would take something colossal in scale to melt that much ice. That would leave evidence all over. Torrents of warm meltwater, sulfur and other chemicals in the water, massive seismic activity. We don't see that, so your theory is wrong.
     
  3. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One hundred negative magnetic anomalies over the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS), in particular Mt. Resnik, a subaerially erupted volcanic peak, indicate eruption through at least one field reversal
    You didn't read the paper that is why you remain ignorant, it is found at post 25 you ignored.

    Here are few published papers you will try to ignore:

    The aeromagnetic method as a tool to identify Cenozoic magmatism in the West Antarctic Rift System beneath the West Antarctic Ice Sheet — A review; Thiel subglacial volcano as possible source of the ash layer in the WAISCORE

    and,

    New volcanoes identified under the West Antarctic Ice Sheet

    and,

    A new volcanic province: an inventory of subglacial volcanoes in West Antarctica


    and,

    Nature Communications

    Evidence of an active volcanic heat source beneath the Pine Island Glacier

    Abstract
    Tectonic landforms reveal that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) lies atop a major volcanic rift system. However, identifying subglacial volcanism is challenging. Here we show geochemical evidence of a volcanic heat source upstream of the fast-melting Pine Island Ice Shelf, documented by seawater helium isotope ratios at the front of the Ice Shelf cavity. The localization of mantle helium to glacial meltwater reveals that volcanic heat induces melt beneath the grounded glacier and feeds the subglacial hydrological network crossing the grounding line. The observed transport of mantle helium out of the Ice Shelf cavity indicates that volcanic heat is supplied to the grounded glacier at a rate of ~ 2500 ± 1700 MW, which is ca. half as large as the active Grimsvötn volcano on Iceland. Our finding of a substantial volcanic heat source beneath a major WAIS glacier highlights the need to understand subglacial volcanism, its hydrologic interaction with the marine margins, and its potential role in the future stability of the WAIS.

    ======

    Jack made it clear in POST 9 and 11 that it is still too cold to be able to melt the ice shelf much of any.
     
    Jack Hays likes this.
  4. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Surprise, West Antarctic volcano melts ice
    Who would have thought? Antarctic volcanoes are hot after all. Having a volcano under an icesheet makes a difference, and some of the sea level rise blamed on CO2 is more likely to be because 1,000 °C lava is not far from sub-zero ice. Right now, according to scientist Dustin Schroeder and co, it is as if the Thwaites Glacier in West Antarctic is sitting on a “stovetop burner”.[1]

    Only last week I wondered if West Antarctic volcanoes had something to do with the Antarctic warming and pointed out this strange coincidence below where almost all the warming seems to occur over the volcanic area which is part of the hot “Pacific rim of fire”. I also wondered why some parts of the media don’t seem to mention the volcanoes. Wait and see if this story gets picked up. So far, Fox, and Business Insider have it.

    “Using radar data from satellites in orbit, the researchers were able to figure out where these subglacial streams were too full to be explained by flow from upstream. The swollen streams revealed spots of unusually high melt, Schroeder said. Next, the researchers checked out the subglacial geology in the region and found that […]

    “Using radar data from satellites in orbit, the researchers were able to figure out where these subglacial streams were too full to be explained by flow from upstream. The swollen streams revealed spots of unusually high melt, Schroeder said. Next, the researchers checked out the subglacial geology in the region and found that fast-melting spots were disproportionately clustered near confirmed West Antarctic volcanoes, suspected volcanoes or other presumed hotspots.

    “There’s a pattern of hotspots,” Schroeder said. “One of them is next to Mount Takahe, which is a volcano that actually sticks out of the ice sheet.”… “It’s pretty hot by continental standards,” he said.” — Fox

    [​IMG]
    West Antarctica is melting. East Antarctica is not really. Could it be CO2, or is it volcanoes?
     
    Sunsettommy likes this.
  5. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    6,349
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So you're saying that vulcanism in Antarctica is a normal thing.

    That is, you just shot down your own theory. If Antarctica has always had a few volcanoes, then having a few volcanoes now won't melt the icecaps.

    Why would I ignore them, given they shoot down your theory?

    The first was about finding many ancient extinct volcanoes. Do you understand that extinct volcanoes aren't melting ice?

    The other papers point out there are a few volcanoes under the ice sheet. Which was expected.

    Your "It's not global warming, it's voclanoes!" theory requires that a massive number of brand new volcanoies suddenly started erupting under the ice. A few volcanoes won't have any significant effect. It would take a world-shaking number to cause the currently observed melt, and there's no evidence to back up that crazy theory.
     
  6. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Volcanoes are permanent.
    Active volcanism pulses up and down.
    It does not take as many active volcanoes as you seem to believe to influence the ice.
     
  7. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Your desperate deflection fails you, here is what you already ignored, this time I bold the passages to help your weak eyes:

    Evidence of an active volcanic heat source beneath the Pine Island Glacier

    Abstract
    Tectonic landforms reveal that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) lies atop a major volcanic rift system. However, identifying subglacial volcanism is challenging. Here we show geochemical evidence of a volcanic heat source upstream of the fast-melting Pine Island Ice Shelf, documented by seawater helium isotope ratios at the front of the Ice Shelf cavity. The localization of mantle helium to glacial meltwater reveals that volcanic heat induces melt beneath the grounded glacier and feeds the subglacial hydrological network crossing the grounding line. The observed transport of mantle helium out of the Ice Shelf cavity indicates that volcanic heat is supplied to the grounded glacier at a rate of ~ 2500 ± 1700 MW, which is ca. half as large as the active Grimsvötn volcano on Iceland. Our finding of a substantial volcanic heat source beneath a major WAIS glacier highlights the need to understand subglacial volcanism, its hydrologic interaction with the marine margins, and its potential role in the future stability of the WAIS.

    ======

    The Volcano is definitely contributing to the melting of the BOTTOM side of the glacier, the air temperature isn't warm enough to matter for a glacier of that size.

    The evidence is provided in the published science paper you refused to read.

    Stop resisting the evidence.....
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,418
    Likes Received:
    2,588
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Wow!!!!!!

    That has some rather scary possible implications for the next years and decades.



    Scientists discover 91 volcanoes below Antarctic ice sheet
    This article is more than 3 years old
    This is in addition to 47 already known about and eruption would melt more ice in region affected by climate change



    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/12/scientists-discover-91-volcanos-antarctica
     
    Sunsettommy likes this.
  9. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2018
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    447
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    The abstract of the paper says nothing about the magnitude of the volcanic heat source relative to the circumpolar deep water (CDW). The information below is from this paper you presented. 12000/32 = 375.
    375 is the ratio of CDW heat to volcanic heat.

    Circumpolar Deep Water (CDW) is the primary heat source for melting glacial ice and its increased presence on the Amundsen Sea continental shelf has been implicated in the rapid melting and grounding line retreat observed beneath the Pine Island Glacier19,20,21 and in the atmospheric warming along the western Antarctic Peninsula22. The ocean–atmosphere mechanisms that draw more CDW onto Antarctic continental shelves are challenging to characterize and remain poorly understood23, although the concentration and distribution of CDW and its year-to-year variations have revealed connections to climatic changes in the regional winds21,24.

    Based on the observed 3He excesses, the mantle-derived heat at the front of the ice shelf cavity is 32 ± 12 J kg−1 of seawater. This excess heat is small compared to the heat content of CDW20 (ca. 12 kJ kg−1), demonstrating that volcanic heat does not contribute significantly to the glacial melt observed in the ocean at the front of the ice shelf. This interpreation is consistent with our understanding of melt dynamics beneath the Pine Island Ice Shelf - that most of the basal melt occurs within the cavity, as a result of ocean heat supply2
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  10. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2018
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    447
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I read this article from NASA after posting my previous message which discusses the article in Nature Communications posted by sunsettommy.

    https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/2982/...activity-is-not-melting-the-polar-ice-sheets/

    The team found the helium originated in Earth’s mantle, pointing to a volcanic heat source that may be triggering melting beneath the glacier and feeding the water network beneath it. However, the researchers concluded that the volcanic heat is not a significant contributor to the glacial melt observed in the ocean in front of Pine Island Glacier Ice Shelf. Rather, they attributed the bulk of the melting to the warm temperature of the deep-water mass Pine Island Glacier flows into, which is melting the glacier from underneath.

    Seroussi notes the changes happening now, especially in West Antarctica, are along the coast, which suggests the changes taking place in the ice sheet have nothing to do with volcanism, but are instead originating in the ocean. Ice streams reaching inland begin to flow and accelerate as ice along the coast disappears.

    In addition, Seroussi says the tectonic plate that Antarctica rests upon is one of the most immobile on Earth. It’s surrounded by activity, but that activity also tends to keep it locked in position. There’s no reason to believe it would change today to impact the melting of the Antarctic ice sheet.

    So, in conclusion, while Antarctica’s known volcanism does cause melting, Ivins and Seroussi agree there’s no connection between the loss of ice mass observed in Antarctica in recent decades and volcanic activity. The Antarctic ice sheet is at least 30 million years old, and volcanism there has been going on for millions of years. It's having no new effect on the current melting of the ice sheet.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  11. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why are you making misleading statements Mike?

    I said it was "contributing" to the melting, never disputed that other sources of the cause of melting but NASA is LYING because this and other published papers NEVER says it was melting the ice shelf it self, it is the localized melting that exist which the paper makes clear:

    Not a word about the West Ice shelf......, so far only two small areas are knows to have active volcanoes contributing to the melt.

    Why the deliberate blindness over this paper?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
    DennisTate likes this.
  12. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    75,891
    Likes Received:
    50,896
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Another reason for the ice gain is probably that the Earth continues to cool since the Holocene Maximum 8,000 years ago.

    [​IMG]
    Not particularly good news. Life processes like warmth, CO^2 and fresh water.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  13. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2018
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    447
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    The earth hasn't cooled since 1850, it has warmed about 1 degree Celsius. Only 1 study shows that Antarctica is gaining mass and that is contradicted by other studies so you

    are assuming that ice gain is a fact.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200630072044.htm Major new paleoclimatology study shows global warming has upended 6500 years of cooling

    Over the past 150 years, global warming has more than undone the global cooling that occurred over the past six millennia, according to a major study published June 30 in Nature Research's Scientific Data, "Holocene global mean surface temperature, a multi-method reconstruction approach." The findings show that the millennial-scale global cooling began approximately 6,500 years ago when the long-term average global temperature topped out at around 0.7°C warmer than the mid-19th century. Since then, accelerating greenhouse gas emissions have contributed to global average temperatures that are now surpassing 1°C above the mid-19th century.


    https://phys.org/news/2021-01-holocene-temperature-affirms-role-greenhouse.html Revised Holocene temperature record affirms role of GHG's in recent millenia

    Scientists have resolved a key climate change mystery, showing that the annual global temperature today is the warmest of the past 10,000 years—contrary to recent research, according to a Rutgers-led study in the journal Nature.

    "Our reconstruction shows that the first half of the Holocene was colder than in industrial times due to the cooling effects of remnant ice sheets from the previous glacial period—contrary to previous reconstructions of global temperatures," said lead author Samantha Bova, a postdoctoral researcher associate in the lab of co-author Yair Rosenthal, a Distinguished Professor in the Department of Marine and Coastal Sciences and Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences at Rutgers University-New Brunswick. "The late Holocene warming was indeed caused by the increase in greenhouse gases, as predicted by climate models, and that eliminates any doubts about the key role of carbon dioxide in global warming."
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  14. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    75,891
    Likes Received:
    50,896
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Life loves warming, CO2 and fresh water so that's all good news to me.
     
    DennisTate likes this.
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    31,418
    Likes Received:
    2,588
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One thing that I am certain of is that the move toward putting carbon into the soil is win - win - win - win -win for plants... .animals... and for humans as well!





    Kiss the Ground Film Trailer (2020)
    687,784 views
    •Aug 20, 2020
     
  16. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    6,349
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Sweet Jeebus, this isn't difficult, but you still fail to grasp it.

    Nobody denies there are some volcanoes beneath the ice. Read that part over and over until it sinks in.

    What the normal people point out is that this Antarctic vulcanism isn't anything new. It's always been there, so it can't be what's causing the sudden massive ice melt over the whole continent.

    For your kook theory to work, the amount of vulcanism would have had to increased many time over, undetected. That's insane, so everyone laughs at your theory.

    We keep explaining that, in small words, and you keep lying about we're saying. Why?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  17. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There is no "sudden massive ice melt over the whole continent." Some areas are adding ice.
    Volcanoes are not constantly active. It would be quite normal to see reactivation of previously dormant volcanoes.
     
    Sunsettommy and DennisTate like this.
  18. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It is clear you didn't read the article since is about a currently ERUPTING Volcano that is melting the base of the glacier.

    Here is what you didn't read from post 36:

    It isn't my theory at all, it is based on actual research posted at Nature Cimmunications:

    Evidence of an active volcanic heat source beneath the Pine Island Glacier

    LINK


    ======

    Why don't you spend more tire reading and thinking a lot less shooting from the hip that always makes you look bad.
     
    Jack Hays and DennisTate like this.
  19. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    6,349
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And nothing in the article says it's a new eruption.

    I keep pointing that out to you in small words, and you still can't grasp it. You shouldn't be bothering the grownups.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
  20. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And nothing says it isn't. Remember that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
     
  21. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Your backpedaling is funny, you FINALLY admit that a Volcano is contributing to the melt, now the percentage of the melt by various causes is still not established, that has yet to be established.

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    :banana::banana::banana:
     
    Jack Hays likes this.
  22. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
  23. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's cold in Antarctica.
    Temperature Bottom Falling Out: Antarctica’s Coldest Half-Year Since Measurements Began 60 Years Ago
    By P Gosselin on 9. November 2021

    Share this...
    Antarctica sets a record cold six month period…Neumayer station sets new winter record low, sees rapid cooling since 2000!

    German Die kalte Sonne here features Antarctica’s record cold winter – the coldest since temperature measurements began some 60 years ago.

    Coldest April-September period

    The Amundsen Scott station at the South Pole recorded a mean temperature of -60.9°C for the April 1 to September 30 period, according to the US National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC). For the June-July-August period, the mean was minus 62.9°C — the second coldest recorded. . . .
     
  24. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Stable Antarctic sea ice.
    Ireland, Sweden Show No January Warming Since 1988. Antarctic Sea Ice Extent Now More Than 40 Years Stable!
    By P Gosselin on 15. February 2022

    Share this...
    Charts by Kirye
    Text by Pierre

    The January mean temperature data from the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA )are now available for Sweden and Ireland. . . .
    Antarctic sea ice extent

    Finally, Klaus-Eckart Puls of the European Institute for Climate and Energy (EIKE) brought my attention to a plot of Antarctic sea ice extent, from Climate4you.

    [​IMG]

    Chart: Climate4you

    There’s been no sea ice extent trend change since 1978, when satellite measurement began.
     
    Sunsettommy likes this.
  25. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2020
    Messages:
    26,918
    Likes Received:
    17,050
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Lots of surprises in Antarctica.
    Antarctica has a huge mantle plume beneath it, which might explain why its ice sheet is so unstable: [link]
     

Share This Page