Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Mitt.I started studying scripture before you were a twinkle in your mothers eye. The difference between us is that you dare not study outside the Bible to see its background, how and why it was written and just how easy it is to disprove much of it.

You still haven't shown me Jesus name in the OT. All I get is what Christianity says. Well, the Jews disagree for the simple reason that the OT is all about the Jews. Everyone one of those 300 so-called references/prophecies to Jesus do not hold up. They are simply Christianity using the OT to try to make Jesus 'foretold'. None of them mention Jesus and many of them are simply part of a made up story. Using the same method you could reverse the roles of god and satan.
When you think that 2 prominent Jewish archaeologists have spent years studying the Exodus story and both say it never happened. That surely says something.

Like some of you favourite websites you cannot tell me why Jospeh chose to risk Jesus by going south instead of north.

Micah 5:1 A quote from a Jewish interpretation which involves a great deal of study. http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Micah5_1.pdf

The analysis of Segment A has demonstrated, first and foremost, that the Prophet Micah is directing a prophetic message at a person (or a group of persons) who hailed from Bethlehem, not at a parcel of land that bears the name of the city, in which he foretells that the royal line that originated in Bethlehem will eventually produce יח ַשׁ ִמ . ָNothing is said about יח ַשׁ ִמ ָbeing born in Bethlehem! By contrast, the KJV translation uses Micah 5:2 to create a different prophetic scenario wherein the city of Bethlehem, in spite of being a small and insignificant place in the territory of Judah (for which no reason is given), will be the birthplace of the Christian Messiah. Most other Christian translations do the same thing. B. Analysis of Segment B Micah 5:1B – and his origin is from old, from ancient days. The fact that Segment A of Micah 5:1 actually voids the positive identification (in the New Testament) of Bethlehem as the (Christian) Messiah’s birthplace, created a serious problem for Christianity, one that is compounded by the Hebrew closing phrase of Segment B, לם ָעו ֹימי ֵמ) ִmi'y'MEI oLAM), from ancient days. Micah, a contemporary of the prophets Amos, Hosea, and Isaiah, and of King Hezekiah (around 730 B.C.E.), said something special here, namely, that the origin of יח ַשׁ ִמ ָwould be from Bethlehem, from the long ago past, from ancient days. However, this statement conflicts with Christian theology, since Jesus is considered as having existed from the beginning of time, from before Creation, and the phrase “from ancient days” does not satisfy this criterion. In order to "fix" this problem, many Christian translators simply replace the correct phrase, “ancient days”, with phrases such as “days of eternity”, “everlasting”, or “days of time indefinite”.


Further."But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." - Micah 5:2. The gospel of Matthew (2:5-6) claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfils this prophecy. But this is unlikely for two reasons. "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4). The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from verse 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did. It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan.

Studying outside the Bible shows things are they really were/are. Study of Judaism helps to understand the OT.

 

True, and historians often face the same problem. The best we can do is sift through the information at our disposal and draw our own conclusions. If we're open minded that can lead us to numerous different conclusions, as well.

My best guess in this scenario is that God wanted us to figure everything out on our own. It would be consistent with the free will and moral agency we have been given either by God or by Nature.

It also forces us to come to God on our own volition and initiative. If we believe in the Salvation, Unity with God and all the other things that we think or have been told are offered to us, we have to take that step on our own free will, Again, it's an act of moral agency and, if I understand the term correctly, "Christian liberty". I guess it could be considered that first great "leap of faith", as well.

 

Thanks WanRen for another one of your contributions. I especially like the quote you presented that came out of the mouth from one of our country's great United States President, President Abraham Lincoln our 16th President of these United States.

It was a very sad/dark moment in our country's history when President Abraham Lincoln got assassinated by a coward's bullet in 1865. He will always be remembered as Honest Abe a great United States President!

 

What is all that about. You are quoting me as saying things I have never said.

Try reading this. The New Advent - Catholic. https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04702a.htm

There are also certain scientific considerations which oppose the view that the Flood was geographically universal. Not that science opposes any difficulty insuperable to the power of God; but it draws attention to a number of most extraordinary, if not miraculous phenomena involved in the admission of a geographically universal Deluge.

• First, no such geological traces can be found as ought to have been left by a universal Deluge; for the catastrophe connected with the beginning of the ice-age, or the geological deluge, must not be connected with the Biblical.
• Secondly, the amount of water required by a universal Deluge, as described in the Bible, cannot be accounted for by the data furnished in the Biblical account. If the surface of the earth, in round numbers, amounts to 510,000,000 square kilometres, and if the elevation of the highest mountains reaches about 9000 metres, the water required by the Biblical Flood, if it be universal, amounts to about 4,600,000,000 cubic kilometres. Now, a forty days' rain, ten times more copious than the most violent rainfall known to us, will raise the level of the sea only about 800 metres; since the height to be attained is about 9000 metres, there is still a gap to be filled by unknown sources amounting to a height of more than 8000 metres, in order to raise the water to the level of the greatest mountains.
• Thirdly, if the Biblical Deluge was geographically universal, the sea water and the fresh water would mix to such an extent that neither the marine animals nor the fresh-water animals could have lived in the mixture without a miracle.
• Fourthly, there are serious difficulties connected with the animals in the ark, if the Flood was geographically universal: How were they brought to Noah from the remote regions of the earth in which they lived? How could eight persons take care of such an array of beasts? Where did they obtain the food necessary for all the animals? How could the arctic animals live with those of the torrid zone for a whole year and under the same roof?

Neither of you have any idea of reality

 

I would think the part that would be "moral agency" and free action would be the part of what we do with the information once we have it, rather than guessing at what it is, and with good moral intent getting the message wrong.

You can't act on information and be fairly judged on what you do with that information, if you never have that information, or never have it right. And if the God being purports to judge us on how we follow what he wants, it makes no sense for him not to make sure we know what he wants.

 

You did say those things on pg. 21 #508 of Part 10 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity.

But the quote below with those numbers #8220 & #8221, yeah you didn't say that but that's how your post turned out after management were done with their revamping of the threads a while back. So you can omit them as part of your quote.

 

You're just spouting off your biased opinion so I will accept it as not being factual because the fact is I have a very good understanding, a very good idea of reality.

 

Then prove it. You say there was a Noahs flood when all the evidence. proves no mountains were covered. That Moses never led an Exodus. All the evidence is against it
Tell me where Jesus is named in the OT. Tell me about Joseph and Egypt - or Syria. All the evidence shows you are wrong, but you ignore it. That's not reality. It's a dream world. Christianity, Islam and even Judaism are dream worlds created by using and misusing ancient stories and myths. Taking religious ideas from earlier religions and so on.
One example. 30,000 years ago early men drew pictures of therianthropes on cave walls - creatures made of two animals or half animal, half man. That eventually led to gods of ancient Egypt - of which around 20 were Therianthropes. The Greeks used similar ideas, as did other earlier religions. The Aborigines of Australia have been around for at least 50,000 years. The Covis people or the North American continent were wiped out around 13000 years ago. We have evidence of them. A man's skeleton has been found in the USA 150,000 years old. Creatures that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. You ignore them all and say the earth was drowned by Noahs flood . That's reality?

 

I agree with some of your points.

The messianic concept was Judaic in nature and we never see jews from back then or today believing that their messiah is divine. In fact Jews are forbidden to believe that God is a man, They simply believe there will be a jew who will bring them back to israel, rebuild their destroyed temple and all jews will be together. They also have believe their messiah must be a keeper of their laws - a holy man who will keep all the kosher laws, laws of sabbath etc. But most important, a man can never ever be divine.

Also, it says nothing in the 5 books of moses about the soul eternally suffering for their sins. Its the opposite. Leviticus explicitly states how jews can be forgiven. IMO, and to your point, Christianity is 100% a hybrid form of judaism and so many religions have borrowed form others and then added to their beliefs.

As for the flood, I personally cannot refute the flood. Is it possible there could have been a series of Tsunamis and numerous cat 5 like hurricanes - and along with no food, man all but went extinct - with the exception of those on a pre-built haven structure of some sort?? I know science tries to do its best with empirical methods at arriving at truth. Sometimes science finds newer evidence to disprove its own findings. So I am still on the fence on a few things.

If I had to place a wager, I would place one saying we all have creator. Biology itslef is so complex - the physical and universe laws are so beyond our ken. But I also believe so many stories have been made up and religions are wrong about most of their claims - but with the possibility that perhaps 1 or 2 they will be right with .

 

A flood such as the Noah's flood - covering mountains etc is simply not possible unless you believe in divine intervention. I don't. Localised flooding and destruction is entirely possible and well documented. Disastrous floods have occurred on all continents - even Antartica which was once a temperate continent which drifted south to cooler regions. The Sahara desert, Egypt and the Arabian peninsula were all fertile lands until the end of the last Ice age when the temperature on earth rose and there flora 'moved' further south. If we could move the sand from the Sahara we would undoubtedly find ruins of towns and cities. Solar/space photography is already revealing lost towns and cities in Egypt and various formation in Arabia.

Personally I believe that the Torah was written in the 7th century BCE in the Babylonian period. Most of the laws, festivals etc found are from earlier times. The stories were written and adapted from ancient stories and known events and places are used as a background for the characters.
If you are Jewish I am sorry if I offend you, but these are the results of many years studying the Tanakh and New Testament. Judaism is a conglomerate of adapted earlier and contemporary beliefs.

Biology, the physical and universal laws. I've no doubt that we will eventually understand stand them by the usual method. Trial and error. Medicine was something that the Egyptians excelled at - given their little knowledge and lack of modern technology and equipment. The Greeks came up with several theories that time has confirmed and which the Yanakh writers intimated at in their writings. Hydrology, astronomy etc. Already there is some question as to whether our Laws of Physics need to be adjusted. (CERN).

our post was interesting.

 

I see the acts of seeking, obtaining and analyzing the information as part of it along with what you do with the information afterwards.

Perhaps, God isn't worried about it. Perhaps, he has never and would never condemn his children to eternal damnation (which brings us back to the matter of errors in translation) and use them as firewood.

Here's another thing - this is all a matter of faith, is it not?

There are a lot of things we're not going to get right about God. After all, we have the perceptual faculties of monkeys - can we even be expected to get everything right?

I don't think so, and I presume a God capable of forgiveness would be understanding in this regard.

 

Good question. The quick short answer is because it's a much better covenant than the old one with its harsh judicial judgments and strict obedience.

The long drawn out answer with a thorough explanation and Scripture backing is as follows.

Well essentially the New Covenant or New Testament is God's promise He makes with humanity that He will forgive sin and restore fellowship with those whose hearts are turned toward Him. Like I mentioned above the Old Covenant was harsh in judicial judgments. God had established with His people (Israelites) a requirement of strict obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law required the Israelites to perform daily sacrifices in order to atone for sin because as Scripture tells us the wages of sin is death.

We Read in Scripture:

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 NLT

Moses anticipated the New Covenant because he predicted that the Israelites would fail in keeping the Old Covenant...and fail...boy did they ever!

We Read in Scripture:

4 But to this day the Lord has not given you minds that understand, nor eyes that see, nor ears that hear! Deuteronomy 29:4 NLT

22 “Then the generations to come, both your own descendants and the foreigners who come from distant lands, will see the devastation of the land and the diseases the Lord inflicts on it. 23 They will exclaim, ‘The whole land is devastated by sulfur and salt. It is a wasteland with nothing planted and nothing growing, not even a blade of grass. It is like the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord destroyed in his intense anger.’
24 “And all the surrounding nations will ask, ‘Why has the Lord done this to this land? Why was he so angry?’
25 “And the answer will be, ‘This happened because the people of the land abandoned the covenant that the Lord, the God of their ancestors, made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt. 26 Instead, they turned away to serve and worship gods they had not known before, gods that were not from the Lord. 27 That is why the Lord’s anger has burned against this land, bringing down on it every curse recorded in this book. 28 In great anger and fury the Lord uprooted his people from their land and banished them to another land, where they still live today!’ Deuteronomy 29:22-28 NLT

But then Moses saw a time of rejuvenation a time of mending.

We Read in Scripture:

A Call to Return to the Lord

30 “In the future, when you experience all these blessings and curses I have listed for you, and when you are living among the nations to which the Lord your God has exiled you, take to heart all these instructions. 2 If at that time you and your children return to the Lord your God, and if you obey with all your heart and all your soul all the commands I have given you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes. He will have mercy on you and gather you back from all the nations where he has scattered you. 4 Even though you are banished to the ends of the earth,[a] the Lord your God will gather you from there and bring you back again. 5 The Lord your God will return you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will possess that land again. Then he will make you even more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors! Deuteronomy 30:1-5 NLT

6 “The Lord your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live! Deuteronomy 30:6 NLT

So this New Covenant will involve a change of heart in that God's people are naturally pleasing to Him.

As I've already mentioned above in my previous post the prophet Jeremiah also predicted/prophesied the New Covenant.

We Read in Scripture:

"Behold, days are coming," declared the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." Jeremiah 31:31 NASB
33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:33 NASB

Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ came into the world nearly 600 years later after the prophesy was made to fulfill the Law of Moses which established the New Covenant between God and His people.

We Read in Scripture:

Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said,

17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17 NASB

The Old Covenant was written in stone, but the New Covenant is written on our hearts. Entering the New Covenant is made possible only by faith in Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, who sacrificed Himself voluntarily by shedding His sinless innocent blood on the cross to take away the sins of the world.

We Read in Scripture:

Jesus, the Lamb of God

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29 NLT

Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said,

20 After supper he took another cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant between God and his people—an agreement confirmed with my blood, which is poured out as a sacrifice for you. Luke 22:20 NLT

We also find in Scripture that the New Covenant is also mentioned in Ezekiel 36:26-27.

We Read in Scripture:

26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations. Ezekiel 36:26-27 NLT

The verses in Ezekiel speak of a new heart, a new spirit, the Holy Spirit living in us and a true holiness in us so that we will follow God's decrees and be careful to obey His regulations.

Scripture tells us none of these things were provided in the Mosaic Law.

We Read in Scripture:

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20 ESV

So essentially we'd be all condemned to hell if the Old Covenant with the Mosaic Law were still in effect. But we thank God Almighty that He has given all of us a 2nd chance with His New Covenant that He so graciously provided all of us.

This New Covenant was originally given to the Israelites that included a promise of fruitfulness, blessing and a peaceful existence in the Promised Land.

We Read in Scripture:

28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Ezekiel 36:28-30 ESV

After the resurrection of Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ, Gentiles were also brought into the blessing of the New Covenant as Scripture tells us. The fulfillment of the New Covenant will be seen in two places: on earth, during the Millennial Kingdom; and in heaven, for all eternity.

We Read in Scripture:

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. Acts 10:44-48 ESV

13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ. 14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. Ephesians 2:13-14 NLT

So the "Good News" is that we are no longer under the Law but under grace.

We Read in Scripture:

14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace. 15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Romans 6:14-15 NLT

The Old Covenant has served its purpose, and it has been replaced by "a better covenant".

We Read in Scripture:

22 Because of this oath, Jesus is the one who guarantees this better covenant with God. Hebrews 7:22 NLT

So we are all given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift under this New Covenant.

We Read in Scripture:

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. Ephesians 2:8-9 NLT

Through His own sacrificial death, Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf and brought an end to the Law's sacrifices. And so then it is our responsibility to display faith in Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ for what He has done for us.

We are born again Christians, the Holy Spirit lives in all believers.

We Read in Scripture:

9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you. Romans 8:9-11 NLT

We believers share in the inheritance of Christ and enjoy a permanent, unbroken relationship with God!

We Read in Scripture:

15 That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant. Hebrews 9:15 NLT

So dairy this thorough explanation above I have presented to you should answer your question adequately, "Why the need for the new covenant?" Oh and thanks for asking that good question of yours.

But before I go, you might have a follow up question such as, "So did all people who lived prior to Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ get sent to hell?"

The answer is NO. Almighty God so graciously was fair and held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness for He Himself is fair and just and He makes sinners right in His sight when they believe in Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ.

We Read in Scripture:

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26 NLT

 

First let me say I am by no means offended, and if I am, its my problem , not yours. I always enjoys places for discord and discussion on subject matter that we haven’t quite figured out yet with absolute certainty. Furthermore, I am always after absolute truth, even if the truth refutes my own beliefs from my younger years of growing up with catholic father and jewish mother. Seems like sundays I was in church and sat I was in Synagogue.

Yet, with all those religious years in being pulled in each direction, I began to make my own decisions with age (and I am proud of my free thinking tendencies) . I remeber vividly - the 1st topic that I began to question was prayer. Certain observations had me 2nd guessing it and without getting into details lets just say that the holocaust and other man-made atrocities, began to pull me in a different direction.

As I have aged, I have become more rational and pragmatic with respect to younger religious beliefs. And whereas truth is Very Important to me, its More Important to me not to believe in lies and falsehoods. Thankfully, good old common sense and rational reasoning act as powerful Fear and bulchit repellants. Its just too bad more people do not use them

 

Interesting. I was 'brought up' in free church teaching, my mother being a Christian and a Sunday school teacher. That was during WWII. My father was away in the army I became a Christian and in my teen and younger days a Preacher and Bible teacher. Then I started studying the background to the Bible and many things did not add up. Having spent years studying I am now an atheist. I've spent a fair amount of time studying the Tanakh and am familiar with Judaism and its beginnings.
Marx said 'Religion is the opium of the people'. Reading the whole of the text I think he is saying that it takes us out of the reality of the hard and often terrible conditions that surround us, and helps us to cope. The real problem is that if we take religion away we have nothing to replace it with. That doesn't make religion any more real but it does pass the responsibility of many things on to a supernatural being, instead of facing things for ourselves. 'It it's god's will, it will happen. If it isn't his will, it won't.'
The problem with 'truth' and 'religion' is that they don't always go hand in hand. You will have seen that on here. Proven truth/facts are rejected in favour of written words in a 'special' book.

 

Sorry trev but no one and I mean no one can prove/disprove anything in regards to Almighty God/Holy Bible...etc....etc. Anyone who thinks they have proven anything is just being intellectually dishonest. All intellectually honest people know for a fact no one can prove/disprove anything in regards to Almighty God/Holy Bible...etc...etc. And so of course this includes the Great Flood of Noah story...did it happen or did it not happen?

There are an abundance of evidence that supports the world-wide flood of Noah but no one on the other side takes them seriously so that being the case why should people on the side that supports the Great Flood of Noah as being a real historical event that happened in earth's past history take people on the other side of the debate seriously when they claim evidence that they think proves something...like no mountains were covered?

If no mountains were covered then explain why mountains all over the world one can find sea shells and other marine fossils? These include the Sierras, the Swiss Alps, the Himalayas and many more. How did those marine animals get up those mountains? Did they come out of the ocean and wiggle themselves up the mountain slopes?...not possible...what's more plausible is the Great Flood of Noah put them up there.

Bones of Whales have been found 440 feet above sea level, north of Lake Ontario; a skeleton of another whale was discovered in Vermont, more than 500 feet above sea level; and still another in the Montreal-Quebec area, about 600 feet above sea level.

So you see trev there is evidence that supports the Great Flood of Noah but it's not taken seriously by members of your debate team so what are we left with?...just an on going debate, because as far as I know, no one yet has conclusively proven anything one way or the other. The rubber stamp is still in the desk drawer.

So you should just stop playing that silly game of using that dreaded "p" word...ok dude?...lol

But anyway as I've said before, some things in life is just unknowable. All intellectually honest people know that we humans do not have insight into 100% of all knowledge. So who really knows if there was a world wide catastrophic mountain swallowing flood?...answer...only Almighty God The Creator knows, after all He created the heavens and the earth and furthermore it was He who told us about this mountain swallowing flood in His Best Selling Book Of All-Time, the Holy Bible and by golly I believe Him.

We Read in Scripture:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. Genesis 1:1-2 NLT

17 “Look! I am about to cover the earth with a flood that will destroy every living thing that breathes. Everything on earth will die. 18 But I will confirm my covenant with you. So enter the boat—you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 19 Bring a pair of every kind of animal—a male and a female—into the boat with you to keep them alive during the flood. 20 Pairs of every kind of bird, and every kind of animal, and every kind of small animal that scurries along the ground, will come to you to be kept alive. 21 And be sure to take on board enough food for your family and for all the animals.” 22 So Noah did everything exactly as God had commanded him. Genesis 6:17-24 NLT

17 For forty days the floodwaters grew deeper, covering the ground and lifting the boat high above the earth. 18 As the waters rose higher and higher above the ground, the boat floated safely on the surface. 19 Finally, the water covered even the highest mountains on the earth, 20 rising more than twenty-two feet above the highest peaks. 21 All the living things on earth died—birds, domestic animals, wild animals, small animals that scurry along the ground, and all the people. 22 Everything that breathed and lived on dry land died. 23 God wiped out every living thing on the earth—people, livestock, small animals that scurry along the ground, and the birds of the sky. All were destroyed. The only people who survived were Noah and those with him in the boat. 24 And the floodwaters covered the earth for 150 days. Genesis 7:17-24 NLT

 

leviticus? masturbation is also a sin in Leviticus. its always interesting to hear christians quote 1 of the 5 original scripture books but then to hear them dismiss those same 5 as the "The Old Testament"

Anyway, if one really wishes to get petty and discuss theology, then even during times of Noah, "sexual immorality was a sin" - long before the 1st jew

But sexual immorality includes anal, oral sex and other sexual fetishes. Yet We dont hear many ridiculing the blow jobs now do we?

 

If you want to learn something about bones found on mountains then you should study the geology of continental drift, of tectonic plates etc. Millions of years ago the Himalayas were just a seabed a few thousand miles to the south of their present position.. The tectonic plate carrying that particular seabed moved north on the mantle. It collided with the tectonic plate carrying Eurasia. When they collided one was forced upwards and the other downwards. India was joined to Eurasia One tektonic plate is still moving north and pushing the Himalayas to greater heights and forcing itself farther north. Scientists have measured the movement northwardThe only thing that keeps the height of the Himalayas reasonably stable is erosion. There have been movements of all the tektonic plates all over the world. Earths movements have pushed earth up and and down. It's no surprising sea creature fossils are found at high levels. If you don't believe me Google 'Greater Adria. Around 130,000 years ago another continent moved north a met the southern coast of Europe. In this case it slide under the present Europe. It is still their today. One continent on top of another.

Tsunamis. You may have read recently of earthquakes in Japan. My son lives as a teacher in Tokyo and tells me when they have happened there. Most of these are caused by the Pacific tectonic plate moving against the Eurasian tectonic plate and partly the Philippine plate. The power of the two rubbing together sends one under the other with movements that affect the seabed and earth. You then have tsunamies. The last one was forecast at about a metre in height but they come much higher and more powerfully. So do earthquakes. Many elsewhere are not felt as they are in deep waters or far from land. Do you not know that the whole earth's surface is moving/ The earth itself is changing its axis over periods of time. That's partly the reason we get seasons.

There's a movement of the earth called Precession which also affects earth a great deal over 26000 years. It's complicated. See http://hosting.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/earth_precess.htm

It's no good quoting and telling me that on your god knows things. Quoting the Bible does nothing. You've been shown several reasons why the mountains have not been covered. Believe them or not, that's your affair.

That's reality -

 

https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/archeo/kichisibi/k300c-clydeswhale.html





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WHALE FOSSILS HIGH IN ANDES SHOW HOW MOUNTAINS ROSE FROM SEA
By Malcolm W. Browne

• March 12, 1987

Credit...The New York Times Archives
.
Scientists have found fossils of whales and other marine animals in mountain sediments in the Andes, indicating that the South American mountain chain rose very rapidly from the sea.

The rare assemblage of fossils, recovered on an expedition by the American Museum of Natural History to a remote plateau in southern Chile, is expected not only to illuminate an obscure epoch of animal evolution but also to document the rise of the Andes mountains in the past 15 million years.

Among the fossils the scientists reported bringing back were the bones of whales and other marine animals found at altitudes of more than 5,000 feet. When these animals died from 15 million to 20 million years ago, their carcasses settled to the ocean floor and were embedded in submarine sediments. But since then, the violent upthrusting of the Andean chain has carried the sediments to the tops of mountains. In geological terms, the time the fossils took to rise from ocean floor to mountain top was relatively brief.

It's all down to the movement of the earth - not flooding of mountains

Intellectual honesty?
Intellectual honesty is a personal commitment to search for the truth by examining the evidence and thinking rationally, to tell the truth, and to act according to the truth.

 

I have proven to you that at no point in the entire 4.5 billion year history of the earth, was there ever a global flood. I gave you over 10 peer reviewed scientific papers showing you why. Pretending you weren't proven wrong doesn't change reality.

 

There are many extra-biblical evidences that point to a worldwide catastrophe such as a global flood. There are vast fossil graveyards found on every continent and large amounts of coal deposits that would require the rapid covering of vast quantities of vegetation. Oceanic fossils are found upon mountain tops around the world. Cultures in all parts of the world have some form of flood legend. All of these facts and many others are evidence of a global flood.

https://www.gotquestions.org/global-flood.html

 

I have proven this claim false. You ran away when I gave you the evidence. Maybe you'd like to address it now?

 

In your opinion. Again let me repeat myself. Sorry trev but no one and I mean no one can prove/disprove anything in regards to Almighty God/Holy Bible...etc....etc. Anyone who thinks they have proven anything is just being intellectually dishonest. All intellectually honest people know for a fact no one can prove/disprove anything in regards to Almighty God/Holy Bible...etc...etc. And so of course this includes the Exodus story featuring Moses...did it happen or did it not happen?

There are an abundance of evidence it happened but then you say all evidence is against it so what are we left with...senseless debates.

 

Being as how you're far better read about these things than I am, trevor, do you believe the story of Noah was lifted from the Epic of Gilgamesh and/or perhaps some older tale?

 

Was the Noahic flood global?
The Bible is clear: the Genesis flood covered the entire earth (Genesis 7:19-20). Every living person and land animal died in a global deluge except those in the ark (Genesis 7:21-22). Even God's promise to never flood the earth again spoke to its extent: "… never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth" (Genesis 9:11).

The idea that the Genesis flood was local rather than global may have begun in the 16th century in an informal think tank in colonial America. They observed that some of the Native American tribes they'd had contact with did not have a flood mythology. The speculated reason was that the natives must have pre-dated the flood, which would mean the flood did not reach the western hemisphere. In fact, they posited, it was possible that the natives pre-dated even Adam. The idea took hold among London's thinkers, and certainly informed the racist undertones of Darwinian evolution. Ironically, the entire idea is uninformed. The Aztecs, Ojibwes, Delawares, and Incas all have flood mythologies, some specific enough to say that the original creation lasted for 1716 years, the Creator told a righteous man to build a boat, and the survivors lived by floating on a log with a few animals. The Aztecs even mention that the man knew the waters had receded when a dove did not return.

The mythologies about a global flood may be one of the greatest secular proofs that the event was worldwide. Tribes in Tanzania, China, India, Indonesia, Wales, Siberia, the Andaman Islands, as well as the Australian Aborigines and the Maasai in Africa all have stories of a great flood that the Creator used to discipline disobedient people. Atheists speculate the stories were inspired by the appearance of seashell fossils high in mountain ranges or local flooding caused by the sudden melt of glaciers. But this doesn't explain the universality of the stories or the frequently found similarities.

A global flood also explains many of the geological features we see today. Sea fossils are found throughout the world at every elevation—consistent with rising waters covering the earth. Layers of rock formation in the Grand Canyon show evidence that several strata were bent and curved while still warm enough to fold without cracking. The shape of the sea floor shows signs of catastrophic geological violence. And even the stories of the gardens of Babylon can be explained by a global flood; the geological pyrotechnics on the ocean floor would have heated the water in the Arabian Sea, causing hypercyclones that would have sent rain over Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, and even Egypt. As time passed and the waters cooled, the storms decreased and the Middle East became a desert.

Bible references match these evidences. Several passages mention the global flood survived by only eight people. Isaiah 54:9 refers to Noah's floodwaters covering the earth. Hebrews 11:7 lauds Noah's faith as he built the ark. Most convincingly, Jesus mentions the flood in Matthew 24:38-39 and Luke 17:26-27. Peter not only talks about the eight people brought through the water (1 Peter 3:20), he warns that in the last days people will deny the flood, saying that "scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing … For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished" (2 Peter 3:3, 5-6). Verse 7 goes on to explain why doubters will deny the flood—it reminds them too much of their own coming judgment.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/global-flood.html