Pirating - it's kind of like marijuana possession

Copying is not stealing. Suppose you build a wheelbarrow. I see it and I like the design. If I sneak into your yard and take your wheelbarrow, then you no longer have your wheelbarrow. That is stealing.

On the other hand, if I see your wheelbarrow and make a copy of it, now we both have a wheelbarrow. You cannot claim that I stole your wheelbarrow because you still have your wheelbarrow. The same goes for music. Just remember that copying and stealing mean two different things … glad I could clear that up for you.

Suppose that I illegally download one hundred songs onto one thousand MP3 players which I will give to poor starving children in Africa. Those children now have more, but song writers do not have anything less because of my action … if nobody has less then how can there be a victim? Seems to me like there are only winners and no losers.

 

Things like spotify and vevo on YouTube have also helped solve the problem for music. Put the shows online, put ads on them. The bigger problem I see with this is cable companies getting upset at networks, since it could potentially reduce the demand for cable services.

 

Did you know that Charles Dickens made more money in the U.S. – where he had no copyright protection – than he made in the U.K. where his work was copyrighted?

Also, did you know that if you make a dress with a fluffy collar, I can make a copy of that dress the next day … and yet, even without any type of protection, people still make dresses with fluffy collars. According to you, it is impossible that designers would make new clothing designs, because others are free to copy them ... and yet, new clothing designs come out daily. Same for food.

You can read about creation under competition in this free book (make all the free copies you want): http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/against.htm

 

Similarly, you oppose prosecuting shoplifting and petty theft right?

 

The please note I don't have an avatar. And it is no more of straw than the initial one. Stealing someone else's stuff is stealing someone else's stuff regardless of whether or not you broke down there front door to do it.

 

I heard this argument back in the 1980's, when VCR's were about to ruin movies forever. Funny, aren't some big studios still in business?

True, this whole controversy will soon be moot. I can listen to just about anything I want to legally and for free on YouTube right now

Notice the typical conservative solution though. Instead of having the music industry go through the terrible pain and inconvenience of adopting the same business model that has made television trillions for the last 70 years (that is, free content selling advertising) we should have the government spend billions to arrest teenagers. Wonderful. Government should be small when it comes to helping the old and sick not to starve, but Big as that painful boil on your butt when in the service of Tupac and Eminem

Fortunately, most business people are not that wedded to the conservative business idea that it's not enough to just make money, you must screw your customers as much as possible. Technology has saved us from right wing fanaticism as it sometimes does, and conservatism's big and oppressive government solutions are left in the dustbin of history once again.

 

That's a fair comparison, you think? Piracy = breaking and entering + theft? Even if that were the comparison, which is obviously horrendously flawed, it hardly makes sense to fine someone 13.5million (which is the maximum penalty for pirating 90 songs).

If anything it's far closer to shoplifting. Courts don't spend much time with those - people usually don't even have to go to a physical court.

No it doesn't. Filesharing indirectly affects the bottom line of IP owners. If I pirate a song, the IP owner doesn't lose money, they are assumed to take an indirect loss because they lost a sale. Likewise, marijuana sales don't directly harm anyone, they indirectly harm people.

No. There are multiple things going on here, pretty much all coming down to proportionality. Like I said, someone was prosecuted for downloading 30 songs, and fined $675,000, only a fraction of the maximum penalty. The maximum penalty is $150,000 for each song downloaded. Considering these songs can be bought on itunes that's hardly proportional.

Then, when you consider the actual value [in his case, really $30], petty theft prosecution would be fine. Do you know how long those court cases take and how much public resources they use? Practically none. First, they're usually resolved outside of court, and second they rarely even require a court appearance.

 

Under the "rule of law", you would have a point. But the DOJ and entire federal government completely left the legal reservation 6 years ago. The DOJ cannot unilaterally decide what laws to enforce and what to ignore - but they do because the rule of law is dead.

The DOJ is not doing this (ignoring some drug laws) because of legal reasons, they are doing it for political reasons. Just as they are doing with illegal immigration, the "progressives" running the DOJ are trying to curry favor with young voters who favor legalization of marijuana, while not making everyone else furious by being too blatant about their selective law enforcement.

If it was for legal reasons then it would have to be consistent with other laws. Since its for political reasons, it does not have to make legal sense.

 

You left one thing out, if you make that girly dress and you sew in the label of the person or company who is manufacturing the original dress, it's a counterfeit and you broke the law.

BTW: Make a copy of the Hells Angels "death skull" colors which is protected by copyright laws, watch or more likely feel what will happen to you. After they are done with you, then they might take you to court.

 

I think you are confusing trademarks with copyrights. Trademarks are used to give consumers information about who made an item, which is something the consumer has a right to know. I don't have a problem with trademarks, I consider them a good thing.

 

There were a lot of people who ended up in prison by bootlegging video cassettes. The FBI didn't (*)(*)(*)(*) around and that's why the movie industry are still making movies.

Even today every weekend in L.A. County, dozens and dozens are arrested at swap meets for selling bootlegged DVD's and CD's. Along with those selling counterfeit products.

One of the biggest problems are the thousands of homes that burn down every year because of electrical fires because some electrical contractor was trying to save a buck or some stupid home owners said gee that twenty dollar circut breaker is for sale for ten dollars and buys it and installs it in his electrical service box. Then he comes home one day and all he sees is smoking charcoal.

Same problem with auto parts. Be careful with those cheap brake pads, they might be counterfeits from China and that dead six year old girl you just ran over because of those cheap counterfeit break pads didn't stop your car in time. I don't think the parents of the dead child are going to except your excuse of buying cheap chi-com counterfeit break pads.

Do you see why they have copyright, patent and counterfeit laws ?

 

You brought up dresses when the topic was copyright laws. But it looks like the goal post has been moved, now it everything, copyrights laws, patent laws, register trade marks laws, counterfeiting laws, "UL" certification and I'm sure I left out a few that protects the public.

May I ask how old are you ? Back during the 1990's and early 2000's I use to watch my nephews and their friends unlawfully downloading and burning CD's and they just couldn't comprehend that they were breaking the law. The way they looked at it they were saving hundreds if not thousands of dollars. (*)(*)(*)(*) "No Doubt," (*)(*)(*)(*) "U-2" (*)(*)(*)(*) "AC/DC" (*)(*)(*)(*) "Cheap Trick" (*)(*)(*)(*) Capital Records, (*)(*)(*)(*) Sony. (*)(*)(*)(*) all those people who were behind creating the music from the recording studios to the truck driver who delivered the CD's to music stores that are no more.

 

What is it with that ridiculously absurd strawman? It takes a lot of resources to investigate crimes. You may not be aware of this, but most petty theft and shoplifting goes unprosecuted because it is not caught and there are few resources devoted to investigating every complaint made to police. Do you advocate increasing police resources a hundredfold? If not, then you are in favor of petty theft as well!

 

So it's your contention that copyright and patent regulations exist as consumer protection? Do you have evidence of that?

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Counterfeiting laws apply to money. The government counterfeits money every day. It simply doesn't allow competition within its jurisdiction.

UL certification is a private program.

 

Lulz. Destroyed the music industry?

I have yet to hear of a band quitting or failing to take off due to file sharing, of all things. In fact, the industry part of music is doing just fine. Don't believe me? Ask Apple. They didn't become as ridiculously wealthy as they are today selling Macs and smartphones. It was iTunes, the iPod and all that music and other tightly controlled and monetised digital media they sell.

Also, need I mention that today's market environment is actually better than ever for indie bands wanting to get heard and make sales? Again, iTunes. Also, Pandora, Jamendo, freakin' YouTube, and a multitude of other online services. They all make self-publishing far easier than it used to be, and again file sharing is not causing any harm to artists. In fact, it probably increases sales in the end because it's yet another way for people to discover the stuff.

 

What in hell are you talking about ?

Apple Records has nothing to do with Apple computers, no connection at all.

When you hear the word Mclntosh what do you think of ?

I think of the best stereo equipment that money can buy. You got to be rich and love music to have amps that still use vacuum tubes. If it's new it does't mean it's better. Some old technology just can't be surpassed.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Pages/Home.aspx#

http://www.hifi-studio.de/hifi-klassiker/Mc_Intosh/McIntosh.htm

Would you pay $350,000 for a McLntosh home entertainment center ?
I'm not that rich, but I'm still happy with my 30 year old $40,000 McLntosh stereo system.

[video]https://youtu.be/EqxiLz68Nyk[/video]

 

And Apple Records has nothing to do with iTunes, which is owned by Apple, Inc.

 

Well I'm going to didi from this thread.

It's obvious some are trying to legitimize their unlawful behavior.

I was around during the 60's and early 70's during the era of sex, drugs and rock n roll.

Half the fun of smoking a joint was you were breaking the law, you thought you were going against "the man."

Back then it was a felony so it was extremely important not to be busted by the man that means not being stupid.

Timothy Leary got busted by FBI Agent G. Gordon Liddy for a roach that was 1/8 of an inch long and "the man" sent Timothy Leary to prison for being stupid by being caught. (Yes the same G.Gordon Liddy of the Watergate break in.)

So when you buck the system be smart not stupid.

For all of the stupid people who went out and got a marijuana medical card, stupid, stupid, stupid. Why surrender your Second Amendment Rights that you can't get back until ten years after you stop smoking the weed ?

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Who brought up i-Tunes ?

 

No it's not, duplicating an item that you allowed to be duplicated is not "breaking an entering". Do you know what a strawman is?

 

Joel Tenenbaum? He was reportedly fined for downloading and sharing the 30 tracks, the case was brought by the record companies, not the government and I he didn't only downloaded 30 tracks, this was just a representative sample they would have had clear evidence for.

 

There is an issue with comparison:
Purchasing marijuana is not taking money or business away from major companies. Pirating IS taking money away.

 

oh the 1980s horror.... how dare kids of the 80s sit by the radio for an hour waiting for that new song they like to play and pirate the songs they liked.....




my favorite irony of the debate.... Mettallica pirated on a tape in the 80s

I sure hope noone in their 40s ever did one of these...



that's worth about $600000

 

Why would anyone give starving children MP3 players? Wouldn't food be more appropriate?

 

Movies are still in business because they started to release movies to prerecorded tapes before they released them to television. (and why didn't tv kill movies as the industry was saying it would in 1950). People buy tapes for multiple viewings, whole 'nother market, (and mo' money) If it was all about a single viewing then why record it?

You're not just moving the goalposts, now you're in another playing field. Are you suggesting that my hearing will be damaged by listening to a pirated copy of Metallica or what? And, in god's name, HOW does giving one person a monopoly on making an item in and of itself increase the quality of that item? Trademark is important as it enables a company to protect an established reputation, and copyright is important as it protects the integrity of intellectual property, as does patent, which rewards innovation. All three, however, are inherently protections to the producer, not the consumer.

Counterfeiting refers to money, it's an important semantic difference as it has to do with the viability of exchange and the whole purpose of government. We should avoid it here as it opens a whole different subject.

 

I can't understand why anyone would use pirate services anyway. Malware is enough of a problem from totally legitimate sources.

Somehow, I would find the prospect of someone busting down my door, dragging me off to prison and ruining my life to be a real buzzkill, but that's just me.

Oh, and nice to see that you're more concerned about your ability to have a gun than your freedom to do a medicinal drug in your own home.