OKgrannie said, "Pregnancy is SOOOO natural that it must be, should be, monitored by doctors throughout. Dying is natural too, and pregnant women must be careful to avoid that." Who said it should be monitored throughout? Oh please...how many deaths happen a year to pregnant women? Here ya go from the CDC.... "The risk of death from complications of pregnancy has decreased approximately 99% during the twentieth century, from approximately 850 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births in 1900 to 7.5 in 1982. However, since 1982, no further decrease has occurred in maternal mortality in the United States. In addition, racial disparity in pregnancy-related mortality ratios persists; since 1940, mortality ratios among blacks have been at least three to four times higher than those for whites. The Healthy People 2000 objective for maternal mortality of no more than 3.3 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births was not achieved during the twentieth century; substantial improvements are needed to meet the same objective for Healthy People 2010." "Although deaths attributable to pregnancy are rare, each death needs to be identified and carefully reviewed at the state level. To accurately identify causes of pregnancy-related mortality in the United States, complete and consistent reporting is needed (40). Additional sources of data, including review of the medical and social circumstances of the death, are necessary to understand the effects of medical care, socioeconomic status, access to and content of prenatal care, social environment, and lifestyle on the sequence of events that lead to pregnancy-related deaths." "Up to one half of pregnancy-related deaths could be prevented." http://pregnancy.about.com/library/blmorbidfacts.htm http://voices.yahoo.com/leading-cause-death-during-pregnancy-ispregnancy-426162.html http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5202a1.htm Every death is tragic. But the fact is...compare the numbers to the women who had no complications it is small. I am not saying this is ok..it is not. But the numbers of deaths compared to the number of success stories is low. I know a woman who died after getting lipsuction. So is liposuction unsafe? Millions of women get it and have no problem at all. Wow...and your a moral relativist aren't you? I though there was no right and wrong in your book? You wouldn't tell anyone what they morally thought was right was wrong would you? “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”-Joeseph Goebbels This is what the pro-aborts are counting on....their lies will brainwash the people into believe the lie. The hide the truth...PP does this everyday.
As the other user said , NO Huh? in case you have not noticed the religious are in the moral low ground (not to say underground) and their definition of right and wrong is tasteless and plain offensive . And yet you want to enslave the woman who wants a late term abortion. So much for owning your own body and making your own choice eh Makedde? Then choice flies out the window and you take rights away.[/QUOTE]
Here we go again with the "abortion makes society deteriorate " crap... And then I ask "how? Abortion has been around since the first woman didn't want to have another baby. Is that why society has "deteriorated" from the beginning?, Has it? HOW?" And then no Anti-Choicer can give a correlation between abortions and any effect on "society". Has taking away human rights affected society...yes , it has.
Are you now advocating against pre-natal care? Yes, I know not a lot of women die in this country from complications associated with pregnancy/childbirth, and that is because of pre-natal care and early medical intervention. You do know that death from pregnancy/childbirth was common before the practice of medical supervision, don't you? Medical intervention is NOT NATURAL. And since it is rare for a childbirth to occur without medical intervention, you cannot claim that pregnancy/childbirth is natural. Truth or lies are not determined by how many people believe them. A lie is still a lie if it is 100% believed. The truth is still the truth if no one believes it. Those who believe they know the truth unfailingly are the ones most susceptible to lies. Think about that.
For a time we were thinking it was that Lucy chick. But the more we dig the more we learn old Lucy was far from being the pioneer. So if you have a bead on the first living humanoid species, and the mutation that spawned the very first or its kind, National Academies of Science, here and abroad, would be reeeeeeeal delighted if ya'll were to share the discovery. Plus, you'd be on the fast track to a Nobel, and the 7-figure stipend that goes with it. Winners all round. And none more giddy to learn about it than me. What might that first one be? <<< MODERATOR EDIT: INAPPROPRIATE NAME REMOVED >>>
No I am not advocating against prenatal care...just that I don't think most women would die if they never got it. I tool no iron pills...after the third month went one a month and the last month weekly...just so they could listen to the heartbeat. The unborn does have a heartbeat grannie...did you know that? There is always death with everything. People die over the strangest things. But since the beginning of time women have had babies. And while it might have been more dangerous in earlier times...today it is not..the numbers don't show it. Millions and millions of births a year...and few deaths. Would be nice to not have any...just like abortion..but that will never happen. A lot of deaths to women happen in care accidents, suicides and things not related to the pregnancy itself as the one article states. Many happen because the woman had a pre-existing health problem...and some happen as a result of the pregnancy...those are low. The lie is on your side. You don't acknowledge the life in the womb is human...is a person...would benefit by laws protecting it. Remember grannie your the one who wants the killing to continue because you are pro-abortion...you want it legal so that the opportunity show women need it...is there. I stand up for life and am anti-abortion. I want that right taken away. Which position does not kill? Yours or mine Which position is moral? Yours or mine Which position is hypocritical? Yours or mine.
Now then, CM; back on-topic. We got this abortion thing, which has a been a choice since my teen years, in America (I'm 55 on Sunday). So it's kinda something the citizenry has had as right for a long time. And I'm for keeping it, provided none of the pro-choicers get up and uppity, thinking folks who think it a sin need adopt the prochoicer's morality on that. Folk's personal moral beliefs, should be there own. And by all means, if it's a miracle in ya'll's opinion, do carry it to full term. But when the ChristCons get all uppity, and think others need to adopt their moral boundaries, and live by them, too, then I get a bit prickly. Also, if something entirely unrelated comes into the conversation (God's law), then I might have a bit fun with it. Otherwise, I tend to stay mute and respect people's beliefs. Only when it's in my face, do I push back. Cool? - - - Updated - - - Yours (mandating child-birth). Last time I checked, the #1 cause of death is .... being born.
Summed up: """I was fine, I didn't die and it's all about me so everything is fine....and no pregnant women have problems or die because I didn't....."""""""
In cases of rape, when the mother life is in serious danger, where the fetus has an illness that would never allow it to live more than a short time out of the womb even if it can make it that far and in the early development of the fetus before it develops brain making it a person (to be determined by the medical comunity) should all be legal. Not allowed if none of the conditions above apply.
How about if the woman does not want the responsibility of being a parent, simply because she had an unwanted pregnancy, for whatever reason? Is that the point at which her womb becomes property of the state, in essence?
I do not think abortion when performed within a reasonable time is murder. An undeveloped fetus is not a human being.
Your position kills women while not saving a single zef. That seems rather immoral to me. It also seems hypocritical, so I guess that's the answer. This is what happens without medical assistance: http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-i...#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/004.htm Pregnancy/childbirth was a leading cause of death of American women of childbearing age at the turn of the century. It remains a leading cause of death of women in many countries in the world.
You avoided the questions grannie...here I will post them again. No my position does not kill women, that is a lie. If woman want to kill themselves because they are pregnant, then that is no ones fault but their own. Any woman can go to a doctors to get medical attention for the pregnancy. Your position kills....it has killed over 50 million lives since 1973. Answer this one. A woman wants a late term abortion. Should they be allowed to get one? Because if you deny them...they might try to take their own life. So are you for allowing women the right to their bodies? yes or no - - - Updated - - - When is a reasonable time limit? Give us the exact date. Do you have the right to deny a woman an abortion? yes or no?
When people KNOW that women will get abortions whether they are legal or illegal, but the illegal abortions will be dangerous, and those same people make abortions illegal anyway, they are partially responsible for the deaths that occur. No, many women do not feel they can afford to pay for a regular visit, they are reduced to free clinics or skipping pre-natal care altogether. If a woman has suicidal depression, doctors are likely to advise abortion. These are cases that must be decided with the advice of a doctor, not a legislator. But you know that women don't WANT late-term abortions, they only choose them for medical reasons.
OKgrannie said, No not at all. You don't believe in responsibility...so of course you have to find someone to blame. The finger never is point towards your position is it? Of course not. So do you think we should allow all drugs to be legal in the United States. Provide clean needles and places for you kids to go to shoot up. This would possibly eliminate most of the crime element...and allow free choice to those who want to get high. And we know kids are going to drink...so are you in favor of lowering the drinking age to say...14? Or not have one at all like they do in Europe? And ya know kids will have sex anyway. So why not provide safe places for them to go instead of the back seats of cars. Provide them with porn movies and contraception...and anything they want to make the experience pleasurable. We can't possibly catch all the law breakers ...the dealers, the druggies, and all the kids having sex illegally. What you said is actually flipped....the finger at your position. You want abortion legal...so all the deaths of the unborn...are on people who want it legal...not illegal. Even Planned Parenthood stated that the coat hanger was a myth...that most abortions that were done were done in doctors offices underground and NOT IN BACK ALLEYS. Cant afford a visit. Hell with Obamas forced health care...this is not the case anymore. LOL You can get help..its not hard. OBAMA MONEY BABY. yes or no...you are running...RUNNING....RUNNING. DO YOU WANT TO ALLOW WOMEN CHOICE TO OWN THEIR BODIES AND GET A LATE TERM ABORTION....OR NOT. YES OR NO. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF MOST WOMEN WOULD GET THEM. PASITHEA...BELIEVES IN NO LAWS...HIS POSITION IS NOT HYPOCRITICAL. SO IS IT A YES OR NO...DENY HER THE RIGHT TO HER BODY...OR ALLOW HER CHOICE. No, many women do not feel they can afford to pay for a regular visit, they are reduced to free clinics or skipping pre-natal care altogether. If a woman has suicidal depression, doctors are likely to advise abortion. These are cases that must be decided with the advice of a doctor, not a legislator. But you know that women don't WANT late-term abortions, they only choose them for medical reasons.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE] Since abortions occur in about the same numbers whether they are legal or illegal, the same number of zefs will die whether legal or illegal. Since illegal abortions are more dangerous, more women will die if it is illegal. Since medical abortions are available, I doubt that women would ever die in the large numbers they did before 1973. Travel is easier accessed also, so more women have access to legal abortions elsewhere. The coat hangar was and is a symbol for illegal abortion, there were many other methods, such as knitting needles, a flexible hose, Drano, and other gruesome tools that show how desperate women were. Laws on other matters should be examined to evaluate whether they are effective, and ineffective laws should be changed. I have said before, repeatedly, that Canada has NO LAW on abortions and it works well for them. They have less abortions than we do. If you want people to reply to your posts, you should make it easier for them to do so by using the quote feature correctly. If it is difficult to even tell who said what, many people won't make the effort to reply.
It's not about property, it is about allowing a homicide! - - - Updated - - - But not in the U.S. where millions of children in utero have been killed for nothing more than convenience!
Common lies: Abortion is not a homicide A fetus is not a person - - - Updated - - - No rational basis for that viewpoint has ever been posted on this forum.
Because I do not see it as the place of the state to force a woman to give sustenance to another if she does not wish it. No more than I support forced organ donation or blood donation. I see it fundamentally as a question of bodily autonomy. I believe that their are very few if any circumstances in which abortion can be seen as a moral or ethical choice, and I think that has a lot to do with having devoutly catholic parents, but I believe that in some circumstances it can be. I leave it to god to judge whether or not they are but I hope that in cases of life and health of the mother and in cases of rape or fatal fetal abnormality he is merciful.
Common misconceptions based on individual assumptions while cherry-picking portions of relevant legislation in order to "prove" the premise misconception.
Giving the same status to a piece of undeveloped tissue as to a human being with developed brain devalues the human being.
Sperm and egg are "human life" as they are both human and alive. You are confusing the word "human" when used as a descriptive adjective as opposed to a noun. Of course the single cell at conception is human life. The single human cell at conception is also human life just as every other living human cell. A heart cell is not a heart, a brain cell is not a brain, and the single human cell at conception is not a living human according to subject matter experts (Biologists in a relevant field of biology) There is no scientific consensus that claims a zygote is a living human. You do not need a degree in biology, to have graduated high school, or even understand the difference between a noun and a descriptive adjective to realize that a single human cell is not a equal to a living human. You can try this experiment for yourself. Take a 9 year old child and show them 3 pictures Ape, Human, and single cell and ask the child to point out "which one is not like the others" A flawed premise will lead to many conclusions, all of them flawed. The Nazi's, slavery, and so on is about living humans. Your comparison is of no value unless you can show that the zygote is a living human. This is nice but perhaps now that you understand the difference between a noun and descriptive adjective in relation to the term "human" as used in abortion debate you will change your perspective.
