Probably the most amazing fact about conspiray theorists

Discussion in 'JFK' started by Mike12, Nov 26, 2013.

  1. leftysergeant

    leftysergeant New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    8,827
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sounds like a very sound reconaisance plan that would have worked and saved billions of dollars.

    Explains why the American carriers were out of port, too. They were supposed to sort out the Japanese carriers while they were trying to get into position for attack. At the very least, Yamamoto would have known that we were watching him and would have withdrawn from an obviously untenable field of battle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    White nationalist do not even need to make a buck, as long as it so weakens public morale as to advance the cause of the RaHoWa.
     
  2. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Really? And you, a believer in the WC Lone NU theory, what "conspiracy" books have you read???
     
  3. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The reality is, the WC was directed to convince the Am People tha LHO did it and acted alone. They reached this conclusion before any investigation and did so without examining any autopsy photos nor allowing any adversarial element unlike a real court room trial. They also reached the conclusion without any incontrovertible hard evidence.
     
  4. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Over fifty of them here is a partial list.

    Assassination Science by James Fetzer ( edited by him many authors contributed )
    Crossfire and Crossfire II by JIm MArrs
    Plausibale Deniability by Mark Lane
    JFK by Fletcher Prouty
    JFK and the Unspeakable by James Douglass
    Triangle of Death by Brad O'leary and L.E. Seymour
    Best Evidence by David Lifton
    On the Trail of the Assassins by Jim Garrison
    Farewell to Justice by Joan Mellon.

    There are many more and I could go on those are just the ones nearest to my desk on my book shelf.

    None of them are credible they produce no evidence.

    They cherry pick a few things which they then interpret in order to claim a conspiracy, they also lie and ignore facts. They deliberately misquote or lie about the WC which few conspiracy nuts have bothered to read.

    An intelligent person should pay attention to both sides of an argument. But those who believe in conspiracy theories do not tend to think intelligently because they ignore one side.
     
  5. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is completely false.

    It is always conspiracy theory nuts who follow this practice. It is they who state a pre- ordained conclusion and then attempt to make the evidence fit ignoring any evidence which contradicts them

    The reality of the WC is they were directed to investigate and find the truth regardless of where it led. Their mandate which they faithfully followed was to gather evidence and let it take them to the conclusion.

    Your claim that they did otherwise is an out right lie. Not one document or piece of evidence proves that they set out to prove LHO was the assassin. The very conduct of the WC proves you wrong they as faithfully and dutifully followed every piece of evidence where ever it led. This includes massive efforts by many staff members to follow any lead regardless of how slight which suggested an accomplice or conspiracy. They had a large panel of over twenty investigators following such leads only to discover time after time that such leads went no where and he had no accomplices therefore no conspiracy.

    This is precisely what conspiracy theorists fail to do. The CTers only look at what they can interpret and twist and spin ignoring the rest of the evidence
     
  6. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0


    Katzenbach Memo
    Titled "Memorandum for Mr. Moyers," Katzenbach lays out the need for a public statement on the assassination. Katzenbach states that "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."
    Nov. 25, 1963
    Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach

    http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Walkthrough_-_Formation_of_the_Warren_Commission



    "The thing I am most concerned about, and SO IS Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so that WE can convince the pubic that Oswald is the real assassin." (HSCA, vol 3, pp 471-473.)

    http://www.jfklancer.com/Katzenbach.html

    Obviously, a Queen of Hearts investigation. Conclusion before investigation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just out of curiosity, just what lie or mis-quote did you find in Lifton's "Best Evidence?"
     
  7. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Katzenbach was an assistant attorney general he was not on the Commission nor did he direct or control or guide the commission he was not a part of it.

    This quote is simply his opinion about the commission as an outsider.

    You have no evidence whatsoever that the commission set out to prove LHO's guilt but the evidence proves such claims wrong
     
  8. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course You also ( like all conspiracy thoerists ) take Katzenbachs quote out of context and refuse to show the entire memo.

    If you had done so you would see he reported in the same memo that ALL OF THE FACT need to be investigated and presented to the public.

    His statement about LHO was one of concern that rumours and innuendo were gettign mixed with the facts and the public needed to be informed.

    When you take his quote out of context you easily give it a different meaning once again typical of conspiracy theorists to cherry pick what fits and ignore the rest
     
  9. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,938
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    [​IMG]

    One great example of this is Y2K. Those of us in the IT industry were aware of this for decades, and most companies and governments prepared years in advance.

    But the real hysteria broke out about a year in advance, with people publishing tons of books in preparing, and selling "Y2K Kits", water barrels, generators, etc. They made a lot of money doing this, even though those of us in IT just shook our heads and laughed because we knew nothing would happen.
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,938
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It explains nothing. The carriers were out of port for a very good reason.

    The USS Enterprise was on it's way back from Wake Island, having delivered a load of fighters to that island. It was due to arrive in Pearl the afternoon of 7 December.

    The USS Lexington was a day away from Midway Island, where she was to deliver a shipment of fighters to that island.

    The USS Saratoga was off the coast of California without any fighters on board, undergoing final sea trials after spending the previous 9 months in drydock in Bremmerton, Washington.

    Why, where did you think they were? Simply sailing in circles waiting for the attack to happen? One was not even due back to Hawaii for another 2 months, the others were actually in harm's way, with minimal fighters on board and in the path of the attack.
     
  11. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    And just how does your armchair psych analysis square with government investigations such as the HSCA and the ARRB which also conclude "conspiracy"????? Are they also naive profiteers????
     
  12. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Katzenbach was the defacto AG working for LBJ, a prime suspect in the conspiracy. And J Edgar Hoover's note speaks for itself as well.
     
  13. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Katzenbach's note does not speak to any conspiracy he was not a suspect because there is no evidence of a conspiracy to be a suspect in.

    He had no control or direction over the WC
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,938
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Does not matter, simply follow the flowchart. It makes everything crystal clear:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The old "out of context" canard? OK. Well then here is the entire memo, apparently drafted by J. Edgar Hoover for Katzenbach to Pres. assistant Bill Moyers. The entire memo is even more damning and includes an attempt at public thought control (Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off) The whole point of the memo was obviously to under cut the need for any real investigation by the congress.

    From JFK Lancer
    http://www.jfklancer.com/Katzenbach.html

    "A third memo written by the FBI's Courtney Evans on November 26th mentions that Hoover himself drafted the Katzenbach memo. (North, "Act of Treason")"

    Memo from Nicholas deB. Katzenbach, Deputy Attorney General

    November 25, 1963

    MEMORANDUM FOR MR. MOYERS

    It is important that all of the facts surrounding President Kennedy's Assassination be made public in a way which will satisfy people in the United States and abroad that all the facts have been told and that a statement to this effect be made now.

    1. The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that the evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial.

    2. Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat-- too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced.

    3. The matter has been handled thus far with neither dignity nor conviction. Facts have been mixed with rumour and speculation. We can scarcely let the world see us totally in the image of the Dallas police when our President is murdered.

    I think this objective may be satisfied by making public as soon as possible a complete and thorough FBI report on Oswald and the assassination. This may run into the difficulty of pointing to in- consistencies between this report and statements by Dallas police officials. But the reputation of the Bureau is such that it may do the whole job. The only other step would be the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions. This has both advantages and disadvantages. It think it can await publication of the FBI report and public reaction to it here and abroad.

    I think, however, that a statement that all the facts will be made public property in an orderly and responsible way should be made now. We need something to head off public speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort.

    Nicholas deB. Katzenbach

    Deputy Attorney General
     
  16. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is nothing whatsoever damning here in fact the letter proves my point.

    Tell me what did Patzenbach mean in the first paragraph when he states " All of the facts ".

    He meant what he said ALL of the FACTS were made public.

    The facts proved Oswald Kennedy and he was in a postion to know this. The public had to be made aware of that truth as well.

    Katzenbach drafted this and no evideence proves otherwise.

    The Warren Commission set out with instructions which were faithfully followed to find the evidence and let the truth be told regardless of where the evidence led. That is absolute fact which can be shown over and over again in the WC documents. You haveyet to refute it although you and other CTers claim otherwise.

    The famous Katzenbach memo in fact proves nothing. In fact it does not even mention the Warren Commission.

    As always you fail to provide any evidence
     
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,938
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And here is the problem.

    Your entire argument is layer upon later of supposition, allegation, and suspicion. And no real evidence at all.

    This is the kind of fuzzy thinking that almost all Conspiracy Theorists engage in, and I find it laughable.

    But don't feel bad, this is nothing new. Many suspected that old Hitler was still alive and faked his own death. Shot in the head (face), so was unrecognizable. Body burned, to make him harder to identify. Then the Soviets find his body, then burry it in secret in a location nobody is ever able to find ever again.

    Does that make sense? Does the actions of the Soviets make sense? No, therefore it has to be a cover-up, he is still alive somewhere and in hiding!

    [​IMG]
     
  18. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There is no supposition in the hard documented evidence of an attempt to convict Lee Harvey Oswald in the court of Public Opinion shown by the memos of Hoover and Katzenbach. There is no allegation in the documented cover up of the fact that JFK had a grapefruit size hole in the back of his head, indicating a probable shot from the front and certain conspiracy confirmed by 40 plus medical witnesses. That is an irrefutable fact. But the attribution of "fuzzy thinking" would be too complimentary to those who believe in the Lone Nut fable without a shred of irrefutable evidence to back it up.
     
  19. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No. There was no Warren Commission at the time of the creation of the memo. The whole point was to prevent a real investigation. The Warren Commission was the answer. And "all of the facts" obviously meant all of the "facts" real, or invented, that would lead to the pre-determined conclusion -- that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large (quoting directly from the memo).
     
  20. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This memo had nothing whatsoever to do with the WC or what the WC did your point is completely imaginary.

    All of the facts obviously mean ALL of the FACTS and nothing more or less. It clearly means complete disclosure which proves you wrong.

    It did not mention a pre - determined conclusion it mentions the facts which still are the facts that he had no confederates
     
  21. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    No pre-determined conclusion? Nonsense: It was spelled out as clear as can be.
    " The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin;"
    Deal with it.
     
  22. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    BEcause that is what the evidence showed.

    You are wrong and proven so deal with it
     
  23. Soupnazi

    Soupnazi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    16,938
    Likes Received:
    2,622
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Furthermore not a word about the WC chich you tried to connect this to and failed to do
     
  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    9,938
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Going back to the original topic of this thread....

    I guess the most amazing fact to this day about conspiracy theorists is that they can apparently lead normal lives, without requiring 24 hour care. They actually have enough mental ability and reasoning to perform daily functions like taking a shower (I hope), cooking a meal, and turning on their TV without starting to scream at those appliances that they are part of some conspiracy to control his or her life.
     
  25. rouser

    rouser New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2014
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The whole purpose of the Hoover and Katzenbach memos was to suggest a Warren type Commission in order to prevent any real investigation. And that's just what they did and pulled the wool over the eyes of the public (temporarily). Obviously. But some people prefer to keep their heads firmly placed in sand.
     

Share This Page