Prosecutors charge parents of Michigan school shooting suspect

Yep. It’s creating children with the most risk factors for bad outcomes.

Agree there are solutions. Unfortunately they are solutions that require a desire for change that doesn’t exist.

Interesting point on segregation based on financial situation. From my personal experience I think that’s huge. Even though I grew up very poor, my parents made sure we had close personal relationships with people from various economic levels. It led to my brother and I aspiring to be successful but without any of the baggage of envy. When you realize those more affluent than yourself are humans with problems, feelings and challenges of their own, there isn’t nearly the propensity to dissatisfaction with your own economic position. I believe that results in a lot less negative emotions in all areas of life. Good call. That’s something I wouldn’t have thought of that is actually a great source of dissatisfaction with life.

I think it’s pretty important for 15 and 50 year olds to understand their life isn’t the only valuable life. But I agree that can’t happen if physical development of the mind is fouled up with poor diet and/or psychological trauma.

I think it’s very difficult to isolate these numerous “causes”. One explanation for the different effects of portrayals of violence on kids could be your single parent household rate is 14% lower than ours. I haven’t had a chance to look it up, but heard a reliable source in an interview today say it isn’t so much the lack of one father in a household as it is the overall percentage of fathers in a community that affects outcomes for kids. In other words, if there are some good fathers in the community to act as surrogates or examples, the effect on individual fatherless children is mitigated. Probably one reason asian cultures valuing grandparents and other elders greatly impacts society for the better.

Yes, I’ve been following the thread here on PF about that. They are going to attempt gradual elimination of smoking by prohibition. Should be a lot of opportunity for young folks to get in on a burgeoning black market. LOL

 

I really fail to see where I insulted anybody here. There is nothing in your post that explains this. And actually, what you wrote is quiet insulting. You are equating "horrible" parents, with these parents that were so neglectable that it got 4 children killed. Sure, no doubt some horrible parents send their kids to bed without food for dumb reasons or use the belt on them. But these parents contributed in the DEATH of 4 children, by flat out ignoring that their unstable kid with sick fantasies of people being shot by giving him a gun instead. It really is like tossing a fox in a henhouse and shrug that a vox does what a vox does and claim you didn't know this could happen.

 

Let me try another tack.

Immediate gun availability moderates the relationship between the immediate desire to kill (oneself, other people and lots of people) and the ability to fulfil this desire. Do you agree?

Interesting.

Our semi-automatic ban was in response to mass shootings. They are reduced since the ban. Handgun levels have always been low.

Ok

I believe you being flummoxed is the result of a cultural difference. We simply feel safer here without them. Bad peoples fantasies can only go so far. We are not phased about government control (another argument, not necessarily yours).

Also, not every death is equal. Take Port Arthur - almost destroyed a community. This wasn't ghetto chaps exchanging shots.

I'm definitely not against semi-automatics in the US - even though I supported our semi-ban. I have accepted it as part and parcel of the US.

Sounds like fun

Around 10%, most farmers, recreational target shooters, and hunters.

Causality, yes, but not linear r/ship. You statement was: As firearms have proliferated globally A, violent death rates have plummeted drastically to the lowest rates in known human history B

I think my statement describes a connection between two variables that are more closely and conceptually related. Taking "Gun availability moderates the desire to kill (oneself, other people and lots of people) and guns deaths" to be a further, and more refined testing equation, mine is also examinable with cross-sectional data vs yours being longitudinal by nature. You need super tight control over confounding variables with longitudinal data analysis.

It's a great theory, just trickier to pull together a method to test it.

Ha.

Got a link? I'll read at leisure another time. Won't comment as I know zero about this.

Wow, ok, I need to wrap my head around that

I think you're really onto something here. From a completely other direction (probably) I think well-balanced diet and gut microbes are vital for human development. And also that genotype is a factor in determining what's best for each individual.

Everything helps. I support vaccination, though - since Covid is not natural.

 

That's great to hear. You're lucky.

Yes, wealthy people to the surprise of many are for the most part good people. Their minds are pure, therefore their intelligence is unimpeded to reach their full potential. (Now, of course like any demographic, there are exceptions). The wealthy people that I value the most are those that appreciated people from all walks of life.

Very interesting! Also with your postulation about Asian reverence for Elders.

Lack of paternal figures also accounts for much of the decline in our Aboriginal communities. The tribes that have maintained their culture (old ways) do much better as the men have utility and purpose. Appropriate cultural activities for women is important as well, however when men are disconnected from their culture and at a "loose end" they can resort to particularly destructive maladaptation (given the nature of men).

 

I'm not familiar with Michigan law. Buying a gun for a 15 year old son is legal here. It they broke Michigan law then they broke it. I had my first firearm at the age of 10. It was a single shot 20ga shotgun that I used when I accompanied my father on duck hunts.

 

I feel remiss not to acknowledge these statistics. Probably your strongest argument. Did you mean death rate 2018- 11.9/100,000?

Overseas it is the mass shootings, particularly at schools that gets the most bad press. People put those and the "gun nut" youtube videos/documentaries together to create a picture of the US as gun and violence obsessed.

 

But these shooters aren't necessarily "gun nuts." Clearly they are just "nuts." We didn't have these kinds of shootings decades ago because we used to put insane people in hospitals away from the public. For some reason we stopped doing that. The unintended consequence is not pretty.

 

It's not just a left wing dream. I have voted for a Republican president since Ronald Reagan. Thought you'd like to keep up to date with what is going on with these two.

James and Jennifer Crumbley will appear in court next on Feb. 8, 2022

 

They may not all be nuts. And many mentally ill wouldn't harm a fly.

I suspect the type that undertake these massacres wouldn't register as 'lockupable'.

I think you're down the fantasy path here, imo...

 

Never before done in our history. A purely political prosecution. A very slippery slope.

 

While I don't believe all murderers are nuts I believe those that engage in mass shootings are. The only thing that has changed over the past several decades is the failure to lock them up. We used to deal with them before they engaged in mass shootings unlike the practice today of dealing with them afterward.

 

Huh?

What was "never before done"?

 

Can you please give some examples of (potential) mass murderers that were preventatively locked up in the past. And also recent mass shooters that were flagged as insane beforehand and were eligible to be preventatively locked up for life.

Cheers,

 

In the way modern automobiles moderate the immediate desire to get a quart of premium ice cream from the grocer 3 miles across town? Sure.

Do you know if overall mass killings are down or just shootings with semiautomatics?

Yes I agree. To me a semiautomatic firearm is less of a threat than an injured bull or a loader tractor. It’s hard for me fear the firearm.

You nailed our biggest problem. Most mass shootings are not school shootings etc., they are gang related.

I find that refreshing.

I’m not a golfer, but I think there are parallels. Trying to get a projectile to end up where you want it based on fine tuning your anatomical motions and sensory input is challenging and relaxing. And people love spending money on equipment in an attempt to compensate for lack of skill in both pursuits. LOL. Resets your mind like all good recreation should. For me the bonus is the skill has practical applications as well.

Thanks. I wonder if that is static or increasing?

I’ll try again. Gun availability moderates the ability of individuals, societal demographics, and democratic governments to protect themselves from individuals, other societal demographics, and authoritarian totalitarian governments that have superior physical strength or numbers and wish to use that superior strength or numerical superiority to do harm or deprive of property.

Now we both have better descriptives than more guns=more gun death or more guns=less violent deaths.

I think one pretty good test has been the history of societies removing firearms before taking a turn to more authoritarian structure. Case in point was the Castro regime in Cuba. Firearms were used in the revolution but once Fidel wanted to consolidate power and became unpopular with certain demographics he removed firearms from society.

Another interesting thing to me is the ratio of licit gun ownership (numbers of legal firearms in citizen’s possession) compared to numbers of guns possessed by the military of the country. There are exceptions, but in general the more firearms legally held by citizens compared to numbers held by military, the more desirable the country is to live in. As in all our points of discussion, I’m sure it’s not a 100% linear or causal relationship, but very interesting in my opinion.

Not really. It’s just my conclusion based on my understanding of world history and doing a lot of thinking about the work of people like Steven Pinker. You probably know more about him than I do. He’s a Harvard psychology professor and has done a lot of research on violence throughout world history.

https://www.npr.org/2016/07/16/4863...inker-says-the-world-is-becoming-less-violent

Unless you have a criminal record, a $200 tax stamp for legality and a bunch of cash for the product can get you about anything. With the correct fee based license from the BATFE you can even manufacture things like mortars.

Yes genotype has an effect. And now that epigenetics is accepted as a factor in these relationships genetics become even more important if not easier to understand.

I’d add it’s not just development in childhood though. Diet affects behavior extensively even after full development and independent of developmental status. Prison population behavior can be wildly manipulated by diet alone.

I support vaccination as well. It’s one important tool that is being pushed at the expense of others however. We should be using a systems approach, not a one hit wonder approach. And I would posit as far as we know Covid is quite natural. Viruses are a huge part of who we are. Something like 8+% of our genome came straight from viral genomes. Viruses cause death but are an essential part of life on earth. It’s believed mammals would not exist without the introduction of viral genetic material into the genome of predecessors of mammals.

 

First time in our court history.

 

Yep.

They say money doesn’t change people, it exposed who they were all along. I think that’s true.

I think western civilization has a lot to learn from eastern civilizations.

I’ve tried to avoid race as it seems to be a third rail on PF. But we have the same things happening here with the indigenous and the African American communities. To be clear, I don’t believe there is a racial component necessarily. For example, before the US government took upon itself to remove Black fathers from homes the single parent rates of Black to White were similar. The rates for Blacks at one point may have actually been lower I can’t remember. Similar policy has destroyed the indigenous family structure as well.

Very good point about men. That’s probably a major contributing factor to spree shootings—confusion about the role of men in modern society.

 

What is THAT?

 

Yes, those are the stats.
Stats for the 1979/80 claim.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/health-statistics/deaths-firearms-1979-2010

For the 2018 claim.
https://www.thetrace.org/2020/02/gun-deaths-suicide-cdc-data-2018/

It’s interesting what gets the attention. I’m not a “prepper” but live a distinct “preparedness lifestyle”. I know the idea of being prepared for whatever life throws at you has suffered severely from television shows finding nuts to feature or even selectively editing information to make sane people look nuts on “prepper” shows. There are definitely demographics that don’t like to see independence in individuals or groups.

 

Yes. Any responsible adult already knows this. Responsible gun owners despise idiots like these. Though I cannot agree more strongly with the sentiment above, I think this prosecutor has made a tactical error, however: It has already stated that it is charging these irresponsible birthing people to make an example of them. That is not how American criminal justice works. A more appropriate charge would be accessory after the fact.

 

What if someone steals your SUV and runs over a crowd? Same charge? The victims are just as dead.

 

Preaching to the choir, but again what about unsecured vehicles used to commit violence?

 

I expect the NRA to agree that gun ownership is a great responsibility.

 

I think, oddly enough, that prepping make smore sense in the country.

 

My weekends are getting swamped with Christmas socials. I think I'll call a truce at this point, but not a white flag

Yes, familiar with Pinker. A better world overall - and glad that "something" (yet to be empirically determined) has ushered in this period of peace!

 

Australia's decision to disarm citizens was more historical and the genocidal approach to ridding the continent of the Aboriginal people..

the genocide of the aboriginals - Bing