Psaki: Even After Vaccine, You Still Need to Social Distance and Wear Masks

Testing, contact tracing, public cooperation, reasonable restrictions removed when mitigation measures are worked out. Only recently have masks become required indoors. No lockdowns. No stay-at-home orders. K-12 schools reopened in June and have remained open since.

 

A school with 800 children and one nurse... how is that going to work?

Who is going to watch students removed from class?

Some of the measures would be costly to implement--checking students' temperatures, for example. Sending a misbehaving 7-year-old to an empty home isn't going to happen.

British Columbia reopened schools last June as a sort of trial run, then reopened in September. Their experience is that the amount of covid in schools reflects the amount of virus circulating in the community.

If we want them to work in schools, we should provide vaccinations, PPE, and keep new case numbers down in the community.

Why should teachers put up with abuse because meat packing industry workers are abused by their employers? Same goes for nurses, doctors, and cops.

Asking school districts to provide a reasonably safe workplace isn't too much to ask when the district can tell kids they have to wear masks (some parents will object ), or they have to provide teachers with PPE, something most districts can afford.

Depends upon what you mean by "budge."

 

Other than your shameless orangeman bad quip

 

Excellent post!

 

The horror!

 

You must have missed this.

Your point is well taken. I should have been more clear in the post you quote. I’m not saying all authoritarian countries have done well. My point is authoritarian countries have tools at their disposal that other countries do not. Even if we exclude Chinese official data, it’s undeniable the ability to severely restrict travel and impose stay at home orders (likely on pain of death in China’s case) has positive mitigating effects.

Sure. A dictator with full control that doesn’t have a knack for epidemiology will fail miserably. But it’s just nearly impossible to restrict travel, speech, and associations in a country like the US compared to say authoritarian Vietnam (who is still doing well).

The thing is, being authoritarian gave Brazil an advantage. They just squandered it as opposed to Vietnam. And as we both agree, there are innumerable factors at play beyond the ones we have mentioned. My point is simply all other things being equal, an authoritarian government has the advantage. Furthermore, a country tolerant to temporary authoritarianism has advantages as well. New Zealand would be an example of this in some respects. They seem to be tolerant of lockdowns etc. that wouldn’t be tolerated here. The current Auckland lockdown being an example. United States citizens aren’t going to give up their liquor stores and takeout over three cases in one family. It just wouldn’t be tolerated.

You are correct. I said I’d give the Biden administration a fair shake. If the CDC does not give good advice or update poor advice from the previous CDC I’ll criticize the CDC unless evidence is produced the administration is interfering. A good test case is happening right now with school re-opening. The administration is trying to juggle teacher union “interests” with CDC recommendations.

In the interest of discussion, what happens if the CDC fails to live up to it’s mission? Does Biden have obligation to “interfere” at that point or does he let them be?

 

We'll see how BC's model of asking for cooperation works in dealing with variants.

 

My hospital has many more employees than that... and we do these checks, coming in. We do double up and have two lines... but then, we have a lot more than 1,600 employees. And most come in simultaneously for 1st shift. It's totally feasible. Especially if we stager school classes like I've suggested too, and students come in at different times.

Oh, come on. Just like schools already do for dress code violations, misbehaving children, and sick children. You call the parents and have them come pick the kids up. Meanwhile the kids wait in some room next to the principal's office. If the parent doesn't come, tough luck. The kid will be bored to death until the school day ends and the parent will get an earful.

Uh, what? A digital infrared thermother costs $19.99. With one, you can screen all 800 students you're talking of, in minutes.
https://www.amazon.com/Thermometer-...ocphy=9010227&hvtargid=pla-945280050398&psc=1
As far as "sending a 7-year-old" etc., answered above.

Exactly. No big deal. Nothing worse than the community.

Sure, we should provide these things and the Biden administration is allocating literally hundreds of billions of dollars to schools. What's the excuse, then? And the CDC is recommending green/yellow/red guidelines, too.

Huh, what abuse? Pray tell, in what way are school teachers being ABUSED??? All that I want is for them to go to work like all other categories of essential employees who face much BIGGER risks. Gee!!! So, going to work in a fairly safe environment (like my link shows, students are not superspreaders) is now some sort of ABUSE? Are you sure that your choice of words applies???

Even without these measures, schools are much safer than many other environments were people are working every day. But sure, do provide these measures... with the hundreds of billions of dollars the schools will get, they will probably be among the safest environments in the nation... so that the big whiners, big scared chicken littles teachers, can FINALLY agree with doing what I've been doing since the beginning of the pandemic: going to work.
Some parents will object? Tough luck. Their kids, then, won't attend school. Parents can not dictate school district guidelines. They can have a say in school district board meetings to draw police; a say, not a vote. Once the district adopts a policy, that's it. Parent's can't change it. Their only remedy is to cancel enrollment and move their kids to some other private school or homeschool them.

Going to work.

 

"variants" the next boogey man.

 

Just stop it. As centrist you're going to mesh with these idiots almost half the time but if you buck the party line, even with well reasoned peer approved research you will be ostracized. It's useless to reason with the hard left. They are f**king idiots.

 

All good points; I think we actually agree on most of this (as usual; we agree a lot on most topics).
If the CDC screws up? I think in this case Biden should demote the leader and pick another, more competent leader. Like a team owner fires a coach and hires another coach when the team is losing non-stop.

 

what would you say is the risk of someone who has has previously had cv-19 infecting a random stranger sans mask vs someone who has not had the virus donning a cloth mask (or even a properly fit surgical type mask)?

 

Hm... we're veering off-topic and I've answered similar questions in other threads. The risk of someone who has previously had Covid-19 infecting someone else, is currently very low for at least 90 days after the infection (we don't know for how long - could be months or even years, but could be shorter). There is the obvious caveat of the fact that this applies to the current dominant strain in the United States, which is not known for re-infection. This situation may evolve and likely will, given that two of the variants of concern, the B.1.351 and the P.1, are apparently very able to reinfect people who had the previous infection. Both in South Africa (B.1.351) and in the city of Manaus, Brazil (P.1) it seems like thousands of people are catching Covid-19 again, from the new variants. Particularly in Manaus, 75% of the population had already suffered infections with the previous dominant strain, with the city being considered the world's prime example of herd immunity, but when the P.1 showed up, 30 to 40% of those rapidly caught a second infection. Now, the B.1.1.7 doesn't seem to be that prone to re-infecting people, and it is the variant of concern that is growing the most in the United States; it's supposed to be the dominant strain by the end of March. So if this strain dominates and doesn't leave a lot of room for the P.1 and B.1.351 (which are both here already) to grow, then this situation maybe won't change that much... except that the B.1.1.7 - the Kent variant - is apparently also acquiring the E484K mutation that enables the virus to evade vaccines and reinfect, in some cases (turning into what is being called the Bristol variant). So, the jury is still out. For now, and until we get to understand better what's the destiny of these variants in American soil, I'd remain prudent.

As for the degree of protection that masks grant to the person wearing them, I've also posted extensively about it. Just to get to the bottom line, efficacy goes about like this, from highest to lowest: N100, N95, PFF2, KN95 (provided that it is not counterfeit - big problem with these), ASTM level 3 facemask, ASTM level 2, ASTM level 1, non-ASTM-graded facemask, multi-layered cloth mask with pocket filter, single-layered cloth mask, bandana, neck goiter.

Someone who has not had ghe virus donning a cloth mask: not the safest situation, obviously. That person is subject to asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic state with viral shedding, and a simple single-layered cloth mask won't stop transmission.

So, to answer your question, situation B is riskier than situation A.

I'm aware that the CDC has been horrendous in the matter of mask advice. The new CDC administration, though, has issued an op ed about vaccines in the USA Today newspaper that was spot on. I'm hoping that soon they'll correct the poor advice from the previous administration and issue similar op eds and educational materials on masks. At least I hope so. I've been advocating for it for ages. The previous CDC director and the HHS secretary kept promising an educational campaign... never delivered one. Other countries have them routinely. I've watched some on the foreing TV channels I subscribe to by satellite, to keep my language skills sharp (I speak five languages). They are nice. They make simple, transparent, focused educational points in brief 30-second or 60-second spots... and keep rotating the spots, getting other points across.

Here, an example:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=702222763734434

 

Ummmm, the masks I’m referring to are certified NIOSH certified. Hospitals apparently aren’t too short of supply if they won’t fit test new masks. I’ll supply quotes from my cite.

You don’t put thousands of employees at risk from shortages over fit testing.

The cost of some in the cite are only pennies higher priced than Chinese.

We ARE making masks. We HAVE solved the national security issue. In spite of the politicalization of the issue. But politicians are still lying about supplies. That’s my point. I’ve demonstrated there are millions of NIOSH certified masks, only slightly higher priced than Chinese many fairs readily available without buyers. Yet politicians are still telling you there’s a shortage.

 

A CDC/NIOSH certification *is* an evaluation of the quality of the product. It goes through rigorous tests, to establish the filtration percentage of an aerosol laden with what is called MPP (stands for Maximum Penetrating Particulate; 0.3 micron which paradoxically penetrates more than 0.1 micron particles due to Brownian Motion and electrostatic charges). For a mask to be NIOSH certified as N95, like the name indicates, it must filtrate out at least 95% of the particles with a diameter of 0.3 micron. Consequently given that 0.1 micron particles have more trouble getting through, these masks filter out about 98% of coronaviruses (which is 0.1 micron in diameter), as long as there is a good facial fit.

The CDC keeps sampling the manufacturer's production and keeps repeating the tests from time to time. When the quality of a brand new mask's filtration drops below 95% in subsequent tests, the CDC removes the mask from the list of approved devices.

There is NO better system of continuous testing in the world.

If a mask has a valid and current CDC/NIOSH certification, then it is good; it's as simple as that (provided, of course, that it is not a counterfeit falsely claiming to be certified by NIOSH - the CDC has several pages including with pictures, teaching people how to recognize a counterfeit mask).

 

Israel is reporting over a 94% symptom-less result from their vaccines in a group of 1,000,000 people. That coupled with an already 99.96% Survivability rate, means no more masks for sane people that follow Science and Math.

 

I don't believe we are any better off than we were last January in terms of defense against a new pandemic.

We have built up resistence to every action that CDC has recommended. Yes, most are willing to take vaccines, but notice that vaccines have not been able to be supplied to the level of "herd immunity" within 1.5 years. Our defense needs to include what happens before that.

The largest problem with masks from China (and other foreign manufacturers) was that they were not available.

When hospitals have said they are short on PPE, I believe them. And I certainly do not see US production in such a state that in another pandemic we would be prepared to fulfill the needs of hospitals for PPE.

Let's also remember that this has been about the most benign pandemic we could hope for. There is no reason to believe that the death rate for those infected by a future pandemic would be so low as COVID or that it could be controled by the pathetic behavior that we have shown this past year.

It took MONTHS just to make inroads on the lies spewed by Fox, Rushbo, Breightbart, the president, and the rest.

Our leadership HAS to be part of the solution. And, we are FAR WORSE in that department than America has been in the past. IMHO, we have a president with a better record of telling the truth now, but that is hardly even a START in fixing the leadership problem we have today, because the challenge has gotten so much larger. Today, large segments of our society are ready to believe just about any crap instead of anything that medical science says.

Plus, there is a significant segment that just doesn't believe that they should have to follow recommendations.

I just don't see clear evidence that we are any better off in terms of defense against pandemic than we were a year ago.

 

Fully accepted.

Thanks.

 

Are you preparing to move to Israel?

Or are you suggesting that the CDC doesn't follow Scinece and Math?

 

You were intending to question the students, too--right? It's not as simple as you seem to think it is. Many students come by school bus and the buses typically serve several schools that have staggered start times as it is.

Schools don't have a lot of extra space, particularly when they have students socially distance. Where to put misbehaving students is a problem. Just one of many.

They worked through the protocols in British Columbia, but it took a few weeks to get it right for opening last September. I don't know if teachers in, say, Chicago are dragging their feet or pushing incompetent administrators to come up with effective measures. My guess is the latter.

Who says school districts will spend the money properly? Besides, $180b is an insane amount of money if community transmission is held down, something we should do in any event. Close bars, open schools.

The level of risk depends upon how workplaces are organized and the PPE available. Teachers are a greater risk than some, less than many.

The way they started talking about opening schools in BC was abusive to teachers (and students) when they were going to open up without masks on teenagers, even when changing classes, and classes would have changed all at once. We ended up with school officials on one side, and the teachers' union and provincial health authority in the other.

Absolutely. The incompetence of many school administrators is shocking, and the frequent indifference to the need to provide quality instruction is sickening.

And less safe than some others.

The same "whiners" and "chicken littles" who put up with more than 100,000 serious physical assaults every year you don't hear much about? Muted whining, I guess.

Teachers have every right to insist upon reasonable working and learning conditions in their classrooms. Incidentally, BC schools had the highest reading scores in the world (overall, Canada was 6th) on the PISA tests. The teachers that pulled that off pushed until the BC government tightened up its protocols.

Public schools are notorious for toadying to bellyaching parents. How many people show up at your hospital with the idea in mind they'll get this or that nurse or doctor fired? Happens all the time in schools.

Now, that's the kind of school board member we should have! You wouldn't last long, but you'd be one hell of a shooting star.

We can open schools, but we need to get new case counts down. Spending $180b on schools as part of covid mitigation strikes me as a bad idea. We could spend the money on developing capacity for producing PPE.

 

No, I'm prepared to follow the Science and Math as I just shared as a Freedom Loving American. You should try it sometime. 96.96% Survivability Rate and now vaccine that gives 94% no symptoms at all. If you don't feel safe, you really shouldn't drive your car to the grocery store or go outside an expose yourself to bees.

 

Science based medicine does not agree with you.

You're still claiming to be smarter than science based medicine.

And, your "freedom" stuff is just plain ridiculous.

 

99.96% Survivability
94%+ Vaccine Success Rate

Yes... yes.... Freedom is just plain ridiculous to Leftists. We have understood that for a very long time. There is no need for you to continuously confirm it.

 

Again, you proclaim yourself to be smarter than the CDC, WHO, and the rest of the world in terms of medical science.

I see nothing in ANY of your posts that would suggest that.

 

The WHO CDC and others have all flip flopped on masks. When was their Science correct? However, my math is not questioned by anyone. Those are the numbers direct.