Settlements liable to turn Israel into an apartheid state

So many orthodox Jews live outside Israel that it is really ridiculous that Zionists think they need their own state. Do you think Jews in America, Canada, Great Britain, etc. lose sleep worrying about the safety of their children?

 

Jews in Germany did not lose sleep either...all the way till 1930s.

1mln jews felt safe and secure in heir homes in the muslim world, until they were kicked out from their homes and their countries for no fault of theirs, they weren't even Zionists... how about jews persecuted and discriminated against in communist russia or growing antisemitism in western europe today?

Duh....arabs need 25 countries and for jews 1 tiny country is 1 too many... why am I not surprised some people think like that?

PS all those Jews all over the world do feel safe today...to a large extent due to Israel's existence.

 

What is that supposed to mean? I am not orthodox. I see the right of my people to have a state no differently than Muslims feel they should have Muslim (sharia law) states.

What does being orthodox have to do with anything?

Tell me where do you think you get off thinking you can tell parents whether they should worry about the future of their children, let alone Jewish children?

You appear quite presumptious if not arrogant with your assumption.

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Moon in your attempt to have the last word and make a spin you just confirmed what I said earlier.

Lol more.

 

Oh, you mean I have an anti-apartheid agenda. You should have said so. I thought you were making an underhand and scurrilous slur against Phoebe and myself. Language is the most delicate of tools.

So, we have ex US military and the US Secretary of State declaring that Israel will become an apartheid State if it follows it present course. This thread started almost a year ago and , during that time, the charges have become stronger and more widespread. I have no doubts myself that neo-Zionism equates to neo-Fascism and history teaches us the futility of attempting to negotiate with fascism. The Palestinians now have the means to expose Israeli war crimes- and US support for those war crimes- in the international courts and they should be gathering themselves to strike Israel down there. They deserve all the aid they can get;

Oh- and there is no ' last word ' in a democracy.

 

Perhaps not in those countries but in others in Europe they do, most recent be Ukraine.

Not that it matters much because you argue whether something that already exists- should exist.

 

That's true but to argue there shouldnt be a Jewish state in the first place has nothing to do with the settelments, or Nuclear German submarines heading toward USA, does it ?

 

Increasingly so in Canada and the U.K. where they are importing genocidal Islamic imperialists almost all of whom hate Jews into their countries by the thousands.

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No a pro-Islamic Imperialism pro-ethnic cleansing of Jews agenda.

 

Quit these neurotic lies. Jews in UK are safe as everyone else. You want to remove them from the UK perhaps?

 

Let's not confuse terms. Israed is an established and legitimate State, a home for those jewish people who wish to ge there. It is accepted by most people. It is NOT a ' jewish State ' . 25% of its citizens are not jewish and should any fascist Israeli government attempt to transfer them out of their ' jewish State ' then that will be the end of any concept of Israel as a democracy and - probably- mark an end to its legitimacy as a State at all.
Should the karma bubble burst over Israel there won't be any recovery, imho, and that will be as it should be. Israel will be a failed experiment.

 

Absolutely puerile, ignorant nonsense. You should know better.

 

Yes, and with each announcement of increased settlement expansion and evictions of Palestinians from their homes Israel is further eroding Palestinian land and, to use Zionist's favourite scaremongering hyperbole, pushing them into the sea. Unlike the Israeli claim that they are the victims, it is clear to all but the terminally insane that it is the Palestinians who are the victims of oppression, degradation and Israeli thuggery.
You'd think the Jews would have learned from their own horrific oppression; but instead they seem to have learned the wrong lessons with the Palestinians being the easy victims of their vengeance.

 

according to UN resolution 181, it is a Jewish state.

 

181 was never implemented and a ' jewish ' State was never recognised. Even Truman never recognised a ' jewish ' State. In fact, he crossed out . ' Jewish ' State when he signed the recognition of Israel document.

 

The Palestinians cite UN 181 to justify their state.

 

Israel should integrate with neighbors.

 

Israel will not become an Apartheid state, as they are already considering withdrawing to the Seperation Barrier, which only holds 50,000 Palestinians.

 

Try to make us, just dont whine if you lose land because of it.

 

Lol. Just like Ukrainians should integrate with Russia. Thanks for the advise about integration. I am sure the Israelis will now all agree to become a minority in a Sharia law nation where they can be discriminated against and become khafir and dhimmis again.

I will call Bibi this afternoon and pass on your suggestion,

 

You voted for somebody who bragged about derailing Oslo.

 

Bibi needs no suggestions about pushing for peace because he has boasted about derailing the so-called peace process.

 

Oslo is not a sacred cow that cannot be touched, most likly Israel will have to do some one sided steps that will make Oslo obselite anyway, the important issue for me is to end the occupation and cut off from the Palestinans, I thought he would deliver that.

 

Self-delusion or gullibility beyond all reason? I suspect it's a combination of the two.

 

Sharon got us out of Gaza and you probebly feel physical pain when you read his name, still he was a great PM and most ppl followed him, I thought Bibi would do the same.

 

Tactics dear boy, tactics. Gaza remains under the control of Israel. Just because the jailer left the vicinity of the jail, does not mean he has given back the keys to those locked in the jail house.

 

In fact in 1947, a UN Commission recommended partitioning what was left of the original Mandate – western Palestine, into two new states, one Jewish and one Arab which would in fact be a second Palestinian state..

75% of the original Palestine mandated for a Jewish state had already been unilaterally created as the Jewish free Arab monarchy called Transjordan in 1922 and whose constitution makes clear that not only are Jews not allowed to be citizens of this country but that it was created as a Palestinian State.

It is public record that David Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister in 1947 stated that that the Balfour Declaration implied that the whole of Palestine, including TransJordan become a Jewish state but that Transjordan was now a fat accompli so they should just divide up the rest between the Jews and Palestinians. In so doing he admitted that the British unilateral action to create a Palestinian state in Transjordan was illegal

Resolution 181, was was a none-binding recommendation to partition the remaining small portion of Palestine.

The resolution, was in fact adopted on November 29, 1947 in the General Assembly by a vote of 33 - 12, with 10 abstentions.

The Arab League of Nations opposed 181.

181 proposed two states one jewish, one non Jewish, and Jerusalem as an international city,


It is a fact that Resolution 181, in paragraph C, anticipated a unilateral act of war by the Arab League against the proposal and this is why it stated to the Security Council in this paragraph and I quote:

"… determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution."

The Arab League made it clear they would use military force if Resolution 181 was implemented to prevent a Jewish state.

Resolution 181 in anticipation of the Arab League rejecting it by force was adopted:

The operative text from Resolution 181 reads:

"… Having constituted a Special Committee and instructed it to investigate all questions and issues relevant to the problem of Palestine, and to prepare proposals for the solution of the problem, and Having received and examined the report of the Special Committee (document A/364). … Recommends to the United Kingdom, as the mandatory Power for Palestine, and to all other Members of the United Nations the adoption and implementation, with regard to the future Government of Palestine, of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union set out below; …" [italics by author].

The resolution as is the case with all resolutions was not legally binding. Israel agreed to it the Arab League did not. The Arab League then chose to attack the Jews in Palestine telling the world they would never agree to any Jewish state under any circumstance.

They attacked and in fact the UN and the world did nothing. Jews from former Western armies and some gentiles from former Western Armies who felt it their moral Christian duty after the holocaust volunteered and went to Israel in 1948 but in fact the British flew the Egyptian Air Force and led the Royal Jordanian army and sent officers to lead the Arab armies. That is a fact.

What is also fact is Stalin seeing the Arab League as puppet states of Britain decided he would back Israel thinking he could set up a Jewish communist state. He allowed the Czech Republic to train and arm Jews and he allowed over 100,000 Jews out of Russia to Israel to fight.

He never did get his puppet state. After Israel won its war and in fact the Soviets recognized Israel as a Jewish state before the US, Israel did not became a Soviet ally. Stalin underestimated Israel's loyalty to the US and in particular Eleanor Roosevelt who worked at the UN trying to create an Israel state for Jewish Refugees. This woman was the pivotal force in assuring hundreds of thousands of homeless holocaust survivors had a country to go to with nothing left to live for. She did her work because of her religious convictions as a Christian and as an idealist.

In Truman's memoirs he was candid as to his own anti-Semitism and misconceptions of Jews and how this woman took on the entire US state department to convince them not to turn their back on Israel out of fear of alienating its oil supplies in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States.

It was Truman no magic Jewish lobby that turned Truman around.

Ironically and this is what Ronstar was referring to in the late 1990s, more than 50 years after Resolution 181 was rejected by the Arab world, Arab leaders suddenly recommended to the General Assembly that UN Resolution 181 be resurrected as the basis of a peace agreement.

Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

To this day Abbas will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state and has stated he never will, but he demands the world recognize a second Palestinian state.

Mr. Abbas has made it clear time and time again that unless Israel agrees to become non Jewish in constitution and take back within its borders a majority of Muslims who now claim to be Palestinian, he will not recognize the state and two weeks ago he announced an alliance with Hamas who have a constitution declaring war on all Jews worldwide until Israel is rendered extinct and not just Israel but Jordan too.

The Abbas proposal is for a Palestinian state constituted of all of Jordan, Israel and the West Bank. He has made it clear commencing a second Palestinian state on the West Bank is only a temporary phase until the full amalgamation takes place.

We can play games all we want Moon but your agenda is the same. You want a Palestinian state of all of Israel, Jordan and the West Bank. You want that state to be a fundamentalist Sharia state.

You do not recognize the rights of Jews to a state that is Jewish. You have stated on this forum you think the attacks by Hamas on Israel and its tactics are justified.

So why play with me.

Don't. I know your position and you know mine. I support a two state solution. I believe a second Palestinian state on the West Bank is a practical solution because the status quo is not manageable and I believe Netanyahu knows this, knows he will never get a deal with Abbas and is preparing to unilaterally withdraw to defensible borders.

I also believe that the lack of stability and democratic traditions within the Palestinian community will eventually lead to a civil war between Hamas and the PA for control.

I believe from a practical common sense perspective there should be three states,Israel, Jordan and Palestine, and the three should share in water pipe and electric systems, transportation of citizens on roads and in airports, and that a free trade market between the 3 be created.

I believe this is unlikely at the present time due to entrenched hatred and extremism and I truly believe people like you want war and turmoil until your vision of a Sharia Law Muslim state comes about.

I also think Phoebe believes in the same thing.

You can of course deny that but that is what I see in both your positions and challenge.

I debate the words I read. Period.


Resolution 181 (the 1947 Partition Plan) was the last of a series of recommendations that had been drawn up over the years by the Mandator and by international commissions, plans designed to reach an historic compromise between Arabs and Jews in western Palestine. The first was in 1922 when Great Britain unilaterally partitioned Palestine. This did not satisfy the Arabs who wanted the entire country to be Arab. Resolution 181 followed such proposals as the Peel Commission (1937); the Woodhead Commission (193; two 1946 proposals that championed a bi-national state; one proposed by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in April 1946 based on a single state with equal powers for Jews and Arabs; the Morrison-Grady Plan raised in July 1946 which recommended a federal state with two provinces – one Jewish, one Arab. Every scheme since 1922 was rejected by the Arab side, including decidedly pro-Arab ones because these plans recognized Jews as a nation and gave Jewish citizens of Mandate Palestine political representation.



Arabs rejected the "unbalanced" Partition Plan

The UN International Court of Justice (ICJ) uses the term "unbalanced" in describing the reason for Arab rejectionism of Resolution 181.4 This description hardly fits reality. Seventy-seven percent of the landmass of the original Mandate for the Jews was excised in 1922 to create a fourth Arab state – Trans-Jordan (today Jordan).



In a statement by the representative of the Jewish Agency for Palestine to the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) he had that to say about fairness, balance, and justice:5



".



Now a second Arab state was to be carved out of the remainder of Palestine, with the result that the Jewish National Home would represent less than one eighth of the territory originally set aside for it. Such a sacrifice should not be asked of the Jewish people." 6



Referring to the Arab States established as independent countries since the First World War, he said:



"17,000,000 Arabs now occupied an area of 1,290,000 square miles, including all the principal Arab and Moslem centres, while Palestine, after the loss of Transjordan, was only 10,000 square miles; yet the majority plan proposed to reduce it by one half. UNSCOP proposed to eliminate Western Galilee from the Jewish State; that was an injustice and a grievous handicap to the development of the Jewish State." 7 [italics by author].



Israel's independence is not a result of a partial implementation of the Partition Plan.

Resolution 181 has no legal ramifications – that is, Resolution 181 recognized the Jewish right to statehood, but its validity as a potentially legal and binding document was never consummated. Like the schemes that preceded it, Resolution 181's validity hinged on acceptance by both parties of the General Assembly's recommendation.