Suspects Are CHECHEN Brothers With ISLAMIST TIES. What a Shocker!

Wow, your propensity for making uo COMPLETE BULLCRAP out of WHOLE CLOTH is astounding.

Read the "FEDERALIST PAPERS", and see what MADISON (the guy who AUTHORED IT) SAYS ABOUT IT:

Quotes on the Second Amendment:

"The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison of Virginia, The Federalist, No. 46)

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country...." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 [June 8, 1789])

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed ― unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (The Federalist, No. 46 at 243- 244)

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation.... Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (The Federalist, No. 46)

"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it." (The Federalist, No. 46)



And the OTHER Founding Fathers:




"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p. 322)

"The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals.... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." (Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789)

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the General Government; but the best security of that right after all is, the military spirit, that taste for martial exercises, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States....Such men form the best barrier to the liberties of America" - (Gazette of the United States, October 14, 1789.)

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 [June 8, 1789])

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." (Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (178 at 169)

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." (Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789}])

"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

"the ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone," (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper #46.)

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States" (Noah Webster in 'An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution', 1787, a pamphlet aimed at swaying Pennsylvania toward ratification, in Paul Ford, ed., Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, at 56(New York, 188)

"...if raised, whether they could subdue a Nation of freemen, who know how to prize liberty, and who have arms in their hands?" (Delegate Sedgwick, during the Massachusetts Convention, rhetorically asking if an oppressive standing army could prevail, Johnathan Elliot, ed., Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution, Vol.2 at 97 (2d ed., 188)

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." (Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29.)

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.)

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." (Tench Coxe in 'Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym 'A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)

"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people" (Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 178

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to Congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." [William Rawle, A View of the Constitution 125-6 (2nd ed. 1829)

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)

"The Constitution shall never be construed....to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms" (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87)

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of Alabama Press,1975)..)

"The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." (Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution. Debates and other Proceedings of the Convention of Virginia,...taken in shorthand by David Robertson of Petersburg, at 271, 275 2d ed. Richmond, 1805. Also 3 Elliot, Debates at 386)

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." (Zachariah Johnson, 3 Elliot, Debates at 646)

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" (Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836)

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-

"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Peirce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850))

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants" (Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787. Taken from Jefferson, On Democracy 20, S. Padover ed., 1939)

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" (Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836)

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" (George Washington)

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. (Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 [Foley, Ed., reissued 1967])



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Wow...where are all those references to slaves and slave owners????

Ever try the ACTUAL TRUTH, just for a change of pace?


Feel free to continue MAKING UP WHATEVER COMPLETE BULLCRAP YOU THINK YOU NEED TO.


The 2nd Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE,and ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

NO gun law would have prevented the Boston ISLAMIST TERROR ATTACK on AMERICANS.

 

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev claims no terrorist affiliations

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...rother-acted-alone-motivated-by-religion?lite

Tells investigators that he and his brother were motivated by religion but were not in contact with overseas terrorists or groups, officials said.

Several officials familiar with the initial interrogation of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev described his behavior during questioning as cooperative.

A senior government official said Tsarnaev has told investigators — by writing some answers down, and by nodding yes or shaking his head no to others — that he and his brother were not in touch with any overseas terrorists or groups.

Tsarnaev, who has injuries to his tongue preventing him from speaking properly, also indicated that he and his brother conceived the bombing attack on their own, and were motivated by religious fervor.

They got their instructions on how to make bombs from the Internet, he said, according to these officials.

 

still though if your theory of more gun more crime was true the states surrounding Illinois should have higher violent crime rates.
Personally i worry about the violent crime rate more than homicide rate. Many of the homicides are gang and drug war.
My vision is simply giving the people the ability what they do with that ability is up to them. give everyone equal opportunity no mater if your 250 of solid muscle or 60years old walking with a cane or a 23 year old 110 pound woman they should as an individual have the ability to effectively defend themselves

 

I "describe" his answers, as LIES. He knows how to play the game, and has laready been handed a VICTORY , by the Ball-Less Wonder, President Mommy-Pants-Throws-Like-a-Girl.

I'll go with the reports about what the FBI is looking into, over ANYTHING lyingass NBC has to say, thank you:

Boston bombers: FBI hunting 12-strong terrorist “sleeper cell” linked to brothers Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

21 Apr 2013 00:01



Police believe the pair were specially trained to carry out the devastating attack


The FBI was last night hunting a 12-strong terrorist “sleeper cell” linked to the Boston marathon bomb brothers.

Police believe Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev were specially trained to carry out the devastating attack.

More than 1,000 FBI operatives were last night working to track down the cell and arrested a man and two women 60 miles from Boston in the hours before Dzhokhar’s dramatic capture after a bloody shootout on Friday.

A source close to the investigation said: “We have no doubt the brothers were not acting alone. The devices used to detonate the two bombs were highly sophisticated and not the kind of thing people learn from Google.

“They were too advanced. Someone gave the brothers the skills and it is now our job to find out just who they were. Agents think the sleeper cell has up to a dozen members and has been waiting several years for their day to come.”

A specialist team of CIA and FBI interrogators was yesterday flown to a Boston hospital to grill wounded Dzhokhar, 19, about the secret group. The University of Massachusetts student was caught on Friday after hiding out in a boat parked in a garden in locked down Watertown the day after a gun battle with police left his 26-year-old brother and a rookie cop dead.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/boston-bombers-fbi-hunting-12-strong-1844844

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I really trust what the TERRORIST ALLEGEDLY SAYS...

- - - Updated - - -

THere is no proof of that claim, ANYWHERE. PLease start a "GUN CONTROL" thread if you wish to keep discussing the issue, whcih is IRRELEVANT TO THIS THREAD, by your OWN ADMISSION.

 

It's difficult to compare crime rates in different states due to differing demographics. Rural states are going to have lower crime rates no matter what the gun laws are.
My concern is more with homicide than violent crime. Loss of life is the ultimate loss. The way I see it, average people do stupid things, whether they are "criminals" or not. And if you provide guns to a bunch of people who are known to do stupid things, bad things are bound to happen. I'd feel much safer if nobody had guns, and that the only people who had guns were the occasional rare criminal and law enforcement. That's how it is in NYC, and it's very safe here.

I guess it's an issue of trust. I don't really trust the average person to own a gun. I honestly dont even trust many of my friends and family to own a gun. And so I definitely don't trust the general public.

 

Not sure where you think you are living; LOTS of CRIMINALS, have LOTS of GUNS:

http://www.authentic-newyork.com/tag/gang-violence-in-new-york-city/




And it's not just the Inner City, anymore:


As Gangs Move To New York Suburbs, So Does Crime

Over the past few years, authorities have arrested more than 200 gang members in an unexpected place: the tree-lined suburbs along the Hudson River in New York.

Drug traffickers with ties to the Bloods, the Latin Kings and other gangs have put down roots there. Authorities say they brought shootings and stabbings with them.

Middletown, N.Y., is 90 minutes northwest of the city. On West Main Street, you can find tidy brick buildings from the 1800s, a brew pub, and a restaurant that sells fresh mussels and escargot.

But last month, a law enforcement task force used helicopters and SWAT teams to find something else: more than two dozen suspected members of the Bloods street gang, accused of racketeering, conspiracy and drug charges that could send them to prison for a decade.

An indictment says the group operated like a criminal machine, pushing cocaine, marijuana and heroin from the Bronx into New York's northern suburbs. For three months, court papers say, authorities tracked them using wiretaps and cameras set up on telephone poles and trees.

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/14/148160372/as-gangs-move-to-new-york-suburbs-so-does-crime

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The reduction in crime in NYC since the late 1990's , is due to policies set in place by Rudy Guilliani,and STILL it is not the "safe place" you delude...anywhere.

The BOSTON TERRORISTS had NO TROUBLE gettin guns, despite STRITC GUN LAWS THERE.

Grasp that concept.

 

NYC is very safe. It's the safest large city in the US. And crime is now at an all time low. NYC has had very strict gun laws for a long time, including under Giuliani.

As for the Boston terrorists, not sure how they got their guns. But your logic is faulty. Pointing out that some criminals can still get guns despite the gun laws does not disparage the effectiveness of gun laws. It would be like arguing that despite taking cholesterol lowering medication, many people still die of heart attacks. Doesn't mean that the medication doesn't prevent heart attacks.

 

Compared to what? MIAMI? LA? CHICAGO? Wow...how impressive. A nd NYC can thank the crime-fighting policies of Rudy Guilliani for that.

Crime is DROPPED ALL OVER AMERICA,as PRIVATE GUN OWNERSHIP HAS SKYROCKETED.

The FACTS do not support your claims.

It's safer in the leopard cage than it is in the tiger cage, too....

There is NO proof ANYWHERE that gun laws effect anyone other than law abiding citizens...had ZERO EFFECT on the BOSTON ISLAMIST TERRORISTS....

 

Probably because there's nothing left to steal.

 

compared to all cities. NYC has a murder rate comparable to Colorado Springs, Colorado, but has about 20 times the population. Now that's impressive. NYC is one place which shows--tough gun laws can work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

Also, gun ownership in America has been declining for decades. So that goes along with the drop in crime.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/u...is-down-survey-shows.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Wrong. There are more privately owned guns in the US now, than at ANYTIME in our HISTORY.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/10830/as-gun-ownership-grows-crime-drops/

Strict gun laws had NO EFFECT on the ISLAMIST TERROR ATTACK on AMERICANS in BOSTON.

 

But then again, we have stories like this:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/gun-sales-soaring-boosted-gun-laws-concerns-about-obama-532154

So two interesting trends: gun sales are going up, while households with guns are going down. Both of these sources mention, at least in passing, that those buying all these guns are not new owners, but rather existing owners adding to their arsenals. And this is happening even as people who owned a single gun have got rid of it.

Another interesting statistic emerging from these sources, is that gun ownership is far higher in rural areas than in cities - but crime is higher in cities. There seems to be an inverse correlation between gun ownership and crime frequency, but of course those who use guns for crimes don't show up in the gun owner statistics.

I personally doubt there's any real correlation between crime rates and actual gun ownership. Most gun owners, like most non-owners, are not professional criminals.

 

Criminals prefer unarmed victims. It ain't rocket science...


Do Strict Gun Laws Really Stop Gun Crime?


http://news.yahoo.com/strict-gun-laws-really-stop-gun-crime-030423815.html

 

The reason i don't have much trouble with homicide rates as opposed to violent crime rate is because the homicide rates are bloated largely with bad guys killing bad guys (often in drugs or gang war fare) which isn't so bad by my standards. however the violent crime rate is largely bad guys attacking the weaker of the good guys and I care much more about what happens to an innocent as opposed bad guys. It really boils down to the three types of people in the world and deciding who you are and who you care about wolfs (the attacker/bad guy), sheep (those that need protection), and sheepdogs (protector of the sheep)

Personal I don't really trust the average person either but:
1. I distrust the government more
2. I think they still deserve the opportunity if the haven't done anything wrong yet (innocent till proven guilty)
3. I dont think the masses should be punished/restricted because of the faults of individuals
4. I think the individual should be in control of his own destiny (have a gun for attacking have a gun for defense or become easy prey its up to the individuals to decide who will come out on top not the government).

a lack of personal responsibly and self reliance and growing dependance on others is what is causing the downfall of society today and taking liberties like gun ownership away only makes that worse.

 

Yes! Tsarnaev was very possibly telling the truth about this! Islam itself teaches violent JIHAD! You don't have to be a member of a "club" to be fully invested in this murderous, terrorist religion or its ideology. The problem is not any terrorist "clubs" -- the problem is Islam!

 

As I said in another thread, Blaming Religion is like blaming Guns.

 

Islam isn't like the religions you are used to. See my new sig.

 

All religions are not the same, despite our need to pretend that they are.

Read the later writings of the Qur'an,and the Hadiths.

They DIRECTLY CALL for the killing of Jews,and the killing/enslavement of "People of the Book", aka:CHRISTIANS.
Do I need to post the quotes here...AGAIN?
The later writings of the Bible are the Gospel, where Christ extolls us to LOVE OUR ENEMIES.

They are NOT the "same",and to pretend they are is a practice in self-delusion.

Muslims have intitated violent conflicts WORDLWIDE...TODAY; not 1000 years ago..TODAY.

They are the ONLY RELIGION by which the pathway to heaven can be MURDER.

 

Its a religion. Its a set of beliefs that can be twisted and turned to suit the mindset of the believer.

 

I don't need to read them. They are the writings of man, used by man, to justify mans actions. Whether it was the crusades of yesteryear, and the jihads of now, they still serve the same purpose. One man twisting another to do horrific things. Like I said, its like blaming a gun. A Gun is an inert thing that has no value until a value is placed upon it by a person. That person can use the thing for a selfless purpose or a selfish purpose. The use of it creates a value around the thing, but in the end, the thing is just a thing.

Religion is the same. At its heart, its just a humans interpretation of otherworldly ideas that cannot be proven, which means it can be (and has been) warped to suit a purpose.

 

You are trying to paint ALL RELIGIONS with the brush that islam has covered with blood. NO OTHER faith in TODAY'S WORLD preaches MURDER/SUICIDE as a path to heaven.

NONE.

 

Sorry, I blame the person, not the gun-I mean religion. I blame the hateful Dbags who realized that you can manipulate people through there faith much more easily then any other, and do so to accomplish there own twisted ideas.

If you were right, then every believer of Islam would be a psycho death dealing jihadist. Considering I know a few personally, I know you are wrong, therefore I'll blame the crazy people, instead of the religion they use to justify their ideas.

 

Not every Muslim is a terrorist, nor will they necessarily become a terrorist, this is true.

But, every Muslim terrorist gets his idea to kill from a "religion" that doesn't need every Muslim to become a terrorist for it's goal of global domination to be realized.

And, as one who doesn't believe in "the book" wouldn't you be targeted for a, ahem, visit by the faithful one day down the road?

And if Islam isn't like the benign religions we are used to, can't you suspend your anti-religion campaign to at least do something to save your own arse while there is time?

 

Absolutely correct. We need only remember the Christian terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland to see different Christian cults fighting it out based upon their different religious beliefs. We can witness the abortion clinic bombings and murder of abortion providers by Christians in America to see the distortion of "Christian beliefs" by extremists. We can witness the Jewish murder and attacks on the Muslims in Palestine and the recepricated attacks by Muslims against the Jews were both sides justify their atrocities based upon religious beliefs. The Hindus and Buddhist both committing atrocities in Asia based upon their different religious beliefs. The Japanese based much of their rationalization for WW II on their Shinto religious beliefs. Do we even need to go into the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition to document the historical tyranny in the name of religious beliefs?

Anyone that doesn't believe that all religions are not distorted by some with nefarious intent haven't done any reading about religion and the tyranny of religion that is inherent to all religions. All religions create an invidious division defining "Us" and "Them" and the oppression of "Them" is always inherent by the members of the religion.

 

Fair enough. No other religion is CITED as the MOTIVATION for VIOLENCE, by the PERPETRATORS of SAID VIOLENCE, as is islam, regardless of who you blame, and why. Fact.