Terminating disabled babies who probably won't survive and will be disabled

This is a gross assumption concerning medicine.

 

Like I said, if you have a link to any articles with more information about that...

 

Up to 85% of mothers carrying a Downs Syndrome baby opt for abortion, except now some States are criminalizing it. Some other countries the abortion rate is almost 100%. Iceland has eliminated Downs Syndrome by aborting them all.

 

Unfortunately, traditionally Down Syndrome was usually not discovered until around the 15th or 16th weeks of pregnancy, sometimes even later.
Technology is improving, but still it's unrealistic to be able to screen all fetuses early in pregnancy for everything that could be wrong.

In some of the most advanced hospitals with the most advanced testing techniques, they can identify Down Syndrome at between 10 to 13 weeks. But these screening tests can be expensive, or even result in a very small risk of causing the pregnancy to terminate.
Most of the time when these tests are done it is only because doctors noticed something suspicious on the ultrasound image.
Unfortunately it's just not economical to put all pregnant women through an MRI machine. They don't want to use a CAT scan because of obvious risks from the radiation on a developing fetus. And even if they were to do an MRI or CAT scan, they would likely have to scan two separate times, because if the scan is done too early a significant probability exists they may not be able to identify it yet at that point.

Obviously if the fetus is going to be aborted it is preferrable to do it as early into the pregnancy as possible. Otherwise it's going to be somewhere on the spectrum closer to euthanasia than it is "just an abortion".

 

The people with Down syndrome I've met, are the most kindest, intuitive, and empathetic people in our midst...and they have a zest for life. I'm really shocked you want to eliminate them.

 

I didn't say I wanted anything, I simply stated the fact that most are aborted. I suppose the parents consider them a burden.

 

I should point out there are a small percentage of Down Syndrome people who can carry on a conversation with you at the dinner table.
(And I'm not just talking about those with mosaicism)
Down Syndrome does not affect all who have it the same way.

You can look up the brother of Vermont professional snowboarder Kevin Pearce. Kevin Pearce suffered a traumatic brain injury after hitting his head on a rail while snowboarding and was never entirely the same after that. His brother David, who has Down Syndrome, is a gold-medal skier in the Special Olympics.
Suffering a traumatic brain injury helped Kevin grow closer to his brother David.

video
Snowboarder Kevin Pearce Recovers, Scholastic
The Crash Reel [Clip #4], The Crash Reel
brother of famous snowboarder Kevin Pearce has Down syndrome but can still talk fluently and carry on conversations

 

We as a people deal with many burdens. Children dealing with parents who have dementia. Spouses who have to deal with their loved one who is disabled with disease or stroke. If it were "ok" for society to get rid of these problems...I'm sure we could say that we've eliminated 100% of those ills.

 

I have had many experiences with DS adults. They have a right to breathe same as you.

 

You have never worked in a hospital have you? There are times when that very very painful decision is very real and I HATE HATE HATE that people diminish it

 

No, the problem here is that you are making demands without even investigating the ramifications of your demands on the women whose lives you want to affect.

In the aftermath of Cox, the medical board of Texas was asked if they will provide guidance on how doctors should proceed in a way that avoids prosecution.

They say they will not do that, as the reasons for lawsuits are a legal issue, not a medical issue. The medical board does not believe that following their guidance would be any level of protection for doctors.

The problem here is that YOU want to make this a legal issue (and that's what IS happening), but the root problem is that it is a MEDICAL issue and it is the right of the woman how her body is to be treated - she has bodily autonomy.

You can't write laws that bridge the gap in a medically sound way, and you CERTAINLY can not do that while allowing the woman her right to bodily autonomy.

 

Have you read the case of “Baby K/Stephanie Keene”?


She was an anencephalic ( no forebrain) and due to her mothers insistence in her short 21/2 year life she was resuscitated multiple multiple times and ventilated multiple times. Now ventilation requires intubation/tracheostomy and “suctioning”. People who have experienced this say it is frightening and painful to endure. This poor wee thing would have spent a life choking as she would have had to be tube fed and that often results in pneumonia, diarrhoea, and discomfort. It is cruel to put any child through that

 

Ever seen a “floppy baby” because I have. Ever seen foetal abnormality so gross that the baby’s life is measured in days at best because I have. Have you ever seen tube feeding cause diarrhoea so bad it causes first degree burns across the genitals? Because I have. And this is why I believe that no one who has not worked within the healthcare system should be anywhere near these decisions

 

Like I said, Bowerbird, I fear you are trying to make an argument from extremes.

What percentage of women who abort for "abnormalities" have a baby like Baby K?

As a pro-lifer, I'd be totally willing to write a law that the woman can get an abortion without question if the brain mass is below 50% because of some serious abnormality.

But if it's okay aborting them at 20 weeks in the womb, it should be okay to euthanize them after they come out, shouldn't it?

 

Please don't try to convince me that you are so concerned for the wellbeing of this "poor wee thing"

 

No you started with a story without medical foundation and I based my discussion on the case YOU linked to. Every single day somewhere in the world a poor malformed wee thing is entered onto the palliative care pathway. This is not new

 

A very large proportion given that anencephaly is one of the more common anomalies

 

Don't take this personally....but if I was in bad straights in hospital ---I certainly wouldn't want someone with your "death is the most humane action" attitude taking care of me.

 

It's called a bioethics council. Most hospitals have one, or have access to one, a quick teleconference away from another hospital.

 

You don't object to forced abortion, do you?
If it's so clearly the correct and humane decision, then the mother shouldn't always have the choice.

The UK National Health Service did it with Sudiksha Thirumalesh (19 years old), Alfie Evans (just under 2 years old), and Charlie Gard (just under 1 year old).

story here: Teenager who died trying to convince doctors not to turn off life support can be named

 

Yes I object to “forced abortion” but not even China is doing that anymore. I had a close friend who was Catholic - she had an anencephalic baby - she was a midwife so she KNEW. But she decided to deliver the baby and love it all of its short life - not every person can do that. Sadly though for her, as she never truly resolved that grief, she committed suicide later. I will not say this was the only reason but it was at least a couple of nails in the coffin

So again I say if you have never encountered these issues up close and personal please stop trying to tell people who have how to think and react

 

And if you think death is the worst that can happen to someone then you have never walked into an ICU. I am not feeling generous today so I will share one experience. He was forty and had never married - had been a severe epileptic and was “cared for” by three sisters. He was involved in an MVA and sustained multiple multiple injuries. He should not have survived the initial accident but did. Right from the start two of the sisters insisted that everything be done the third sister had been a nurse and she realised how slim his chances were. At one point we had him on two ventilators - one for each lung, that is how hard we fought for him. But he never regained consciousness and he did not heal. Broken limbs never “set” never healed. We all knew it was hopeless - there was no consciousness but his sisters insisted and would not accept he was never going to get better. Three months he was in ICU unresponsive whilst all cares were given. Of course the inevitable happened. There is only so much we could do in those days but it was HOW he died. You could smell him from the front door - he literally rotted to death - we were suctioning black lumps of rotted flesh from his lungs. So tell me again how inhumane I am

 

Yep! There is more to this than meets the eye or has been reported here

https://www.uhb.nhs.uk/news-and-events/news/sudiksha-thirumalesh/630972

https://www.theguardian.com/society...al-fight-nhs-trust-named-sudiksha-thirumalesh
So not “turned off” but died naturally

 

It sounds terrible . I'm sure you are saying it would have been so "humane" if he had died the same day he came.

I have stories of life. Of the down syndrome restaurant worker, filling condiments who was the only worker out of many who noticed my distress and confusion trying to pick up food for a business meeting I was late for. He grabbed my hand, pulled me to the counter and got me assistance when everyone else ignored me. To this day I call him my Angel.

The down syndrome adult who attended my Sunday school class. A good hearted individual who most certainly thought his life worth living.

The group of disabled adult women participating in the Miss Unstoppable beauty pageant...all sorts of chromosome birth defects in that group. Some couldn't speak but were great dancers! That show was so enlightening and fun...these people have a true zest for life.

And then...there was my foster brother..came to us at four and was in our family til 18. Not a sweet mentally retarded individual...he was a meany. My first memory of him is he chasing me with a baseball bat. He was a burden to my parents. AND grew up to be the hardest working and most responsible kid of us all.

Each one of these human beings was a burden...but it's a very good thing for our world that someone didn't kill them "for their sake"

 

Okay - it is obvious you want to paint me with some sort of “evil person” paint. I have NEVER advocated for killing Down’s syndrome patients - they are loving happy people for the most part. And I am an advocate for the disabled and have fought harder not only than you imagine but than you CAN imagine for disabled people and people facing devastating injury/illness but I also am aware that life is finite and sometimes a “gentle death” is the best we can offer. I hope you never are faced with that. May I recommend you volunteer in a hospital?