Test Pilot Admits the F-35 Can’t Dogfight New stealth fighter is dead meat in an a

You mean the tank that stalled and had to be towed off the parade ground?

 

Realistically, against a moderately stealthy aircraft (like the F-35) long range air to air missiles will not be much of an option.

Stealth works by reducing the range at which an effective radar return can occur.

And an F-35 pilot will know what are the best angles his aircraft has for stealthiness, so he can change the orientation of his fighter the moment he detects enemy radar (and you can ALWAYS detect radar emissions long before they actually detect you, basic science it is about 10 times as far. For example a radar that can get a solid lock on you at 40 miles away can be detected up to 400 miles away).

I would wager that to use radar guided missiles against an F-35 an enemy fighter would need to close to medium range. Probably 20 miles or less.

 

Yes no technical malfunction can ever happen...

Point is that the Armata is a formidable platform, nothing to joke about. The US should stop dicking around with waste of money like the F35, and start developing more pragmatic products.

 

They did try to tow it but a representative of the manufacturer who had been watching the rehearsals came over to the tank & it soon drove off under it's own power.

 

Eight SDB's internally is quite a good CAS or BAI loadout, all with full stealth available. What's your point again?

 

I think I pointed out that your statements are a default! In core you are always milling around the allegated superiority of F35 in BVR against any other existing plane (F22 excluded), based on Stealth, Electronic and Wepaons. Further, out of this any “dogfighting” for F35 is not necessary … in what F35 is inferior to many others and what you didn’t deny too. So let’s take a closer look on this again!

Examples of possible enemy planes for F-35
I will not make now a “mile long” list of older planes, but concentrate of on 6 planes (3 West and 3 East) which are more as 4th generation and more likely 5th generation as F35 is claimed to be.
- Eurofighter, aka Typhoon
- Dassault Rafale
- Saab Gripen
- Sukhoi T-50 (implementation to Russian Airfoce in 2016 as latest news tell)
- Sukhoi SU-35/37 … of course based on old SU-27 at least, but so heavy modernized and re-constructed that it is a 4+ fighter if not more and nothing to do with SU-27 anymore.
- MIG-35 … based on MIG-29, but like SU-35/37 so heavy modernized and re-constructed that it has nothing to do with predecessor anymore.

I’m pretty sure that you will deny that these are “worth able” enemies for F35, but then you have to prove this … otherwise it is no more than what you reproach me to have done: allegations and claims only!

Weapons:
I showed you that your claim that no enemy has BVR weapons is a clear default! Not only that there are own developed long range missiles like for example Western MBDA Meteor with a range of min. 200km, many are using same 3 A/A weapons as F-35 of one is only log range= BVR by the way)!
So again default at you, because (possible) enemies have pure by long range weapons the same abilities as F35!
If able to fight a “stealthy” F35 at same range as F35 can fight them is by you denied, on this I come back below later … but conversely your claim means at least that weapons of F35 are not able to fight any other Stealth or “stealthy” plane too, if lesser useable when fired by other plane on F35.
Conclusion: Possible enemies of F35 are using same and other minimum comparable BVR weapons as F35 does … including Russian developments like Izdeliye 810 missile as other example

Interesting is at this point, too, that only the F35 is declared to be so strong in BVR that any dogfighting is superfluous … or if happens, than something went badly wrong. So question 1 is: why are then AIM-9X and AIM-132 as undeniable short range A/A missiles part of F35 arming, if BVR makes short range superfluous?
Question 2 is: Why are ALL OTHERS in the world including short range / dogfighting in their developments and make them in parts so agile that they can fly with highspeed circles around F35 (no, this is no claim! Even F-16 does in trials as told by USAF official itself!)? Are only the US so smart with reduction of dogfight abilities and all others are fools?

Finally … the BVR missile AIM-120 has a success rate of around 60% and this means that 6 of 10 missiles hit. Worst example where AIM-120 failed against was a Serbian Mig-29 on which were 3 AIM-120 shot by F-15 and she could escaped all 3. The hitting all weapon is AIM-120 not … and even latest version D is not and is too susceptible as Pentagon papers tell.


Stealth / “Stealthy”
In core you and others come back again and again to the Stealth abilities of F35. That F35 has is of course undeniable … but is it really this big advantage as what it is claimed to be? No!
It is an advantage only, until your enemy is using not hight tech too … means all these 6 examples of planes I gave have no 50 Cent Electronic in comparison to F35 on board. Further, their electronic systems are able to detect F35 (and F22) much earlier as many think, because passive technic is used … but on this point of detection I come back below later.
Until today the real advantage and effectiveness of Stealth is not really proven … and there are more claims and rumors as facts milling around as facts. This is of course due to military secret issue too. By fact, most modern planes are some kind of “stealthy” in their design and there is technical much possible today to find Stealth weapons. The shot down of a F-117 over Serbia was a somehow shocked for some, as well long expected event for others. Yes, this F-117 was shot down from the ground, but with what? Detected by an old P-18 radar and a SA-3 missile, both Russian technique from the 1970’s!

Radar and Sensors
You and as well other tell again and again that Electronic od radar and sensor of F35 is superior to rest and in combination with Stealth they will see and aim their enemies far before they can see and aim F35. This is utterly wrong!
First of all is Stealth only full working against active radars, but much lesser useful against passive radar. Secondly have even old radars still detected Stealth planes, see example of F-117 shot down.
It is unfortunately common to underestimate the opponents and to overate the own and nothing else happens here at least. So let us take a look a closer look on systems inside these other modern planes which should be inferior to F35:

Saab Gripen:
She has latest the Ericsson PS-05/A Mark 3 and improved Mark 4 passive radar and is able to detect Stealth planes, because a radar signature of 0.1 square meters at full range will be visible! System is working on 8-10 Ghz band. System is able to detect, locate, track and identify automatically multiple targets in all weather conditions. Range of this system is about 120km but all sources are sure that it is by fact much more as that, about 150km is thought.

Eurofighter / Typhoon:
That fighter has the complex CAPTOR system on board what is latest technology and minimum same worth, if not better as system of F35 –AN/APG-81 system. It is working on 8-12 Ghz band and is special optimized for BVR AAM, including all these further electronic technique what can be summarized as “Electronic Warfare” … for example Jammer systems too. Range of radar is differing form source to source and is laying between 200 to 300km and is as PS-05 of Gripen able to detect radar signature of only 0.1 square meters at this range!

Rafale:
As Eurofighter, Rafale has same way a complex Electronic on board … OSF (IR-Sensor, range 100km), SPECTRA (EW system) and latest Rafale’s have the Thales Alenia RBE2-AA radar system. In all the system is comparable with that of the PD-05 in an improved version.

Russian systems:
Out of secret matters is of course not much known. At Sukhoi T-50 is as it looks like a sort of AESA-N050 radar inside with about 1,500 transmitter / receiver modules.
In general the time where Russian planes had more 2nd class Electronic on board are utterly over. So even if not much is known, their systems should never be underestimated again … but not be overrated too of course.

I think I gave you know in a long post clear answer without claims. All things are proofed and you can look by your own their correctness at the several possible sources about. In other words, this things are undisputable FACTS and not a spark of claim as you estimated before that I did.

There is a constantly arms race going on and the USA are not the only one working in high tech level.

Thank you!

 

We know for sure stealth works. And that the F35 has the best stealth so far. We know for sure that the F35 has weapons at least as good as good as it's competitors.

The F35 would be able to detect all of them at longer ranges than they could detect the F35. Which means the F35 would get the first shot.

It does not have to make the F35 impervious to give the F35 a significant advantage.

As a backup. They are not intended as primary weapons. Same thing with the guns...they are "just in case" weapons.

Because they do not have the option of stealth. Stealth technology is expensive to develop. And there are (so far) no nations besides the US that use it. So conventional fighters will still be effective against most of the world.

That will start to change once our allies start getting F35s. But it will not be like that for at least a generation. I think you also exaggerate the difference in agility as well. "Fly circles around"...LOL

Firing multiple missiles the chances of a hit increase dramatically.

So what? Right now they aren't. And Stealth tech, like all tech, advances continually. Do you really think the original stealth fighter was as stealthy as the B2 or the F22? Like most people you assume technology stands still. Technology never stands still. Especially not in a nation that pours more funding into it's military than the next 20 nations combined.

"detect" and "lock on to" do not mean the same thing. The F35 will be able to lock weapons long before the enemy can lock weapons on the F35. That is the main advantage stealth provides.

And it will be true at all ranges. The F35 will always be harder for enemies to lock on to, even at short ranges.

Yeah, that goes both ways. You're making a lot of claims you cannot provide actual evidence for.

...under specific circumstances, using optical technology. They stealth did not actually fail...the pilot was just stupid.

You countered with a bunch of your own opinions.

It is not my job to research your opinions. If you are making the claim, you are expected to provide the evidence. What you have provided so far is merely a personal opinion.

 

The SR-72 is on the drawing boards. This will be a stealthy Mach 6 (at 80,000 feet) drone with attack capability. The F-35 will be superfluous by the time they get the bugs worked out..

 

At the price that baby will cost they'll produce just about as much as they did the SR-71 which mean not enough to be really useful.
I wish people would stop believing that technology will render manned aircraft obsolete. This has been a pipe dream since the mid 50's starting with the UK who thought at the time that the BAC Lightning would be the last manned fighter in the RAF. And here they are waiting for their F35 orders...

 

It's a lot smaller than the -71 and it will be a drone. Not having to keep a pilot comfortable will cut way down on the price tag.

 

Not really. The saving will have to be invested in a hardened communication system to control that drone. Tech cost more than humans in the end and can be hacked or disabled.

And that bird is a stupid idea and a waste of money. You don't need spy plane anymore.

 

The benefit of drones, besides swarming them, is they can be withstand rapid changes in velocities, so you can launch them from a rocket, have them pushing and pulling G's in the high teen's like its routine. Pressurization, displays, oxygen, ejection seats, glass bubbles all take up lots of room and weight, but when lasers start appearing on the battlefield (as if they havent) you don't want them being backed/blinded. Most of the flying will just be programmed but I think they'll need some link for authorisations and parameter alterations, which besides the obvious could even be line of sight to up, or back to other manned air assets further away from the fight.

 

Oh Dear …
Are you really serious or are you only kidding? You tell again and again that I make only claims and tell my opinions, but no facts? Are you really ignorant and not willing or able to read what I gave you?
Sorry, but I give you a bunch of evidences, facts and proofed issues … which are all backed by OFFICIAL documents and data of the manufactures and using Forces! THESE ARE FACTS, but if you are not willing to accept them as facts, then you are only milling around with your own opinions again.

Again and again you are telling that F35 is a such superior weapon, which has in BVR no serious enemy … and so has no need to go into dogfight … and because F35 is such stealthy, they will detect and lock on enemies far before they know about the F35.
Ok, where are your facts and evidences for this please? Phrases like this

are no fact and evidence at all, only your opinion. So please, where is the fact to proof this please? Any serious source for this? Only claims by you!

I gave you these systems on board of Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale, as well and as far as known for Russian planes + their technical data’s as all official sources give for them! Any claim only? Irrelevant? Are you serious?

FACT AND EVIDENCE is, backed by all serious sources of the official documents of these several manufactures of the planes, systems and weapons; backed by the official reports of exercises and testing’s done by the Air Forces using them; backed by several articles written by undisputed experts in several journals and websites … for example David Scott, director at Lockheed Martin International engagement office in aviation week journal, as well others:

01)
The F35 has a superiority above the others in detection and locking on of a) Gripen (60-80km), b) Rafale (in average 100km) and c) at Typhoon it differs between 50 to 80km, due to fact if CAPTOR-D or CAPTOR-E is in use. This gives (only) for the first a superiority in BVR for the F35 due to radar and locking systems! Source: Technical data of used systems as published by manufactures!
02)
But systems, particularly the passive detection systems, as well IR systems reduce the advantages of AN/APG-81 much and let it be most likely that F-35 gets into detection range before able to fire AIM-120 on them. Source: Confirmed by David Rogers in aviation week and David Barrie, member of the respected International Institute for Strategic Studies in London!
03)
The agility and the numerous systems on board of Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon gave them a high opportunity to fight of even multiple fired off missiles on them at same time. Due to fact that F35 has to fire AIM-120 at greater range if not to lose Stealth advantage before being spotted and locked in by their enemies, this greater distance makes the fight off more easy. So a dogfight range is more possible as expectable at least. Source: Pure Data as published by manufactures of systems and weapons, experiences and trials as for example Red Flag 2012 when Typhoon fought against F-22 and their Stealth abilities which are more as comparable to F35
04)
Ripen, Rafale and Typhoon are in majority Air superiority fighter with good task for being strike fighter too. F-35 is reversed and the main task for F35 is being a strike fighter and then an air-to-air fighter. The Air superiority role should be filled out by F-22 … but this is only valid for USAF, because Navy and Marines do not have F-22 and so F-35 has to fulfil the air-to-air role too.
Source: Official designation and combat roles for F35 as published by Pentagon and Lockheed Martin!

OK … now I wait four your facts with sources that THIS what I wrote is wrong / incomplete / not showing the truth or only my opinions. I gave you this and now it is your task to make it too and not to tell only something around with no proof for it.

 

The self confidence in this thread is out of this world
One thing Americans do to often is underestimate their opponent

 

This is my serious face.

You're really not very good at sarcasm, and the language barrier does not help you.

Your personal opinions are insufficient evidence.

You made claims without linked evidence supporting them, and attempted to project them as if they were objective fact.

You are not special enough to be able to make claims without providing evidence.

It's an opinion. And I supported it with evidence. There are no other planes with it's capabilities that are in production. Unless you count the F22.

Stealth reduces RCS significantly. Lower RCS means that it will be resistant to radar locks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stealth_technology#Principles and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross-section#Reduction

You are making the claim that these RCS reductions are irrelevant or negligible. You have not provided actual evidence for that claim.

I am serious. The production planes (Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale,) do not have significant RCS reduction, and the Russian planes, even assuming they meet Russia's claims, are not in production.

So post links to them.

Yeah, I've been saying that. The F35 is designed for BVR. Because most air combat in the future will be BVR. The F35 will detect enemies first, and will be able to lock weapons first.

All those systems can do is allow for the detection of the presence of the F35 at longer ranges. They will not negate combat advantages of a reduced RCS.

Yeah, good luck with that.

How likely is the F35 to come into combat with those planes?

Uh huh. That is why the Navy does not need F22s.

 

Yeah...um...tell me, where is Nazi Germany now? Imperial Japan? The Soviet Union?

It's the other way around. Our enemies have a bad habit of underestimating the US.

 

Lol you seem to think you were the only one fighting Nazis.
Nazis vs US at the time would have beaten you if the playground were even

Force to Force. There was more to Allies wining over Nazi than just US. Remember that USSR had 20 million + people dead in the fight over Nazism.

And I'm not referring to who has greater power. US is still no1 and will be for some time when it comes to Military Power.
That doesn't say that every thing that comes out of US is better than anything else.

Your planes are not better just because it's from the US of A, it has to do a lot with logistics, training etc etc etc. That the other nations doesn't have.

I was talking plane vs plane. I don't see F22 neceserely better than a Sukhoi SU35, Just because we all should believe it has some out of this world tech.
Remember whose space rockets you use to go to space. yea Ruski.

It's like saying German cars are better than volvos just because of the tech inside them.

 

So. Getting to Low Earth Orbit is not exactly a monumentous feat.

And saying "plane v. plane" is a bit misleading as wars are virtually never fought that way.

 

They were the ones who attacked us first. Who underestimated who?

If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.

We are not discussing If's. We are discussing what has actually happened.

Not everything, just most things. I agree that US technology is not superior in every area of military combat.

No, they are better because of their capabilities.

In modern BVR combat it is better.

Russia's rockets are a convenience...we've already demonstrated a mastery of that technology.

 

That's what they are calling it for now, but it will be a spy plane with attack capability. The communication issues have already been resolved, although I hear they are still working on the digital dog-fighting aspect. It could be a ferocious dog-fighter if it doesn't have to worry about keeping pilots conscious.

 

Mach 6 and 18g's. The F-35 is just expensive stop-gap.

 

Look what just got equipped with cannon for air to air combat.

Don'tchyjust luv those wise engineers who always say, we don't need no close air to air cannon fire. Put them in combat!

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/watch-military-trillion-dollar-fighter-jet-test-cannons-202454759.html

[video=youtube;CFoJ93Kb5z0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFoJ93Kb5z0[/video]

STOP REPEATED MCNAMARAISM IN THE MILITARY.
NO ONE PLATFORM FITS ALL IS REASONABLE.


Moi


r > g

View attachment 36610 ​

 

It was always in the design, its a low cost option and used for many more things then dogfighting enemy fighters!!

 

It's more then a stop gap, its the man in the loop if they ever get to rolling out a proper fast strike fighter UCAV. That would leave the F22's to HVAA being the critical points in the network. I think it will become about manned platforms being the backbone to a shield of UCAV options... but that backbone needs to be able to fight as well when all the little drones start falling out of the sky.

 

Like CAS missions to replace the A-10 Wart Hogs, hope they put the fire suppression system back in that they took out to save weight. If they install the new variable cycle engines with thrust vectoring being developed by general electric into the F-35 it might actually be able to dogfight.