The Abortion Issue - Can it be Solved?

What kid? Some hypothetical, non-existent, imaginary kid? An ideal of a person who has never lived? That fetus, which is a part of her body, a part of herself, that she knows would be a person if she gave birth, but instead decided otherwise. It's okay to kill people as long as they are unwanted figments of the imagination...

 

OK, I tried to simplify that bizarre post but it only got more bizarre.

"What kid?" The kid she doesn't want...is that clear enough?

No not an imaginary kid, the real kid she'd give birth to.

Ya, it' is OK to kill figments of the imagination...they don't exist. (eye roll supreme)

It's also OK, and legal, to have an abortion.

 

I refute it by saying that a few men in black suits shouldn't dictate to the rest of the nation what human life is deemed disposable and what human life isn't. That was a question they should not have taken upon themselves to answer.

 

Are you talking about the Supreme Court Justices or that movie, "Men in Black"?
IF you mean the Supreme Court Justices than they take nothing on themselves , they are asked to rule on issues. It's the way our government is set up.

Ask your Senator and/or Representative to change the 3 branches of our government just for you....

If it's the movie...I can't really remember it too well...

 

and yet you want the minority who oppose abortion to be able to get the law changed to suit their viewpoint .. how is this any different?

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with no link to evidence that this actually happened we have only your word for it .. tell me at what stage of the pregnancy was the woman?

 

Same way the "Jewish question" could have been "solved": by the good (pro-life) guys winning, or by the bad (pro-death) guys winning.

I may not have addressed it here at PF, but I can assure anyone that the "task" of finding glaring faults in Roe is not the least bit daunting to anyone with at least a modicum of constitutional literacy.

 

They are supposed to rule on constitutional issues. Not dictate when human life can be killed or decide for the rest of us when human life begins. That was a pretty big step for them to take. They shouldn't have taken the case at all... But there were activist judges that wanted to change things....

 

Isn't that what you want to do by making abortion illegal?

 

LIke I said in earlier posts....this is an issue for the States. Its always been a state issue. Laws are based on the values of those people who live within those laws. A federal entity dictating across the 50 states what life is ok to kill...is pretty scary. Its a STATE ISSUE.

 

So the Supreme Court doesn't have the authority "to decide for the rest of us when human life begins," but state legislatures do?

 

Nope, American citizens are American citizens no matter what state they live in....and even women should have human rights in ALL states.

Again, if you don't like how the government is set up, complain to your Reps.

 

It falls under the jurisdiction of the States. Yes. Which is why "Right to Die" is a state issue. Perimeters on the death penalty is a state issue.

 

You have no idea of what you are talking about. When life can be killed is pretty clear to you. When it kinda looks more like a baby. The judges who discern the constitutionality of a law are not meant to decide when life is ok to kill. Our Federal system concisely revolves around the constitution perimeters. Deciding what life is more important to make sure the other life has sufficient fights is NOT what the Supreme Court is set up to do. They should have sent that case back to the states.

 

Abortion is a human rights issue. Neither the federal nor the state government should make reproductive decisions for women, nor force them to use their bodies against their will.

 

Cady...at least I'm being honest. I realize that there are some people out there that view an embryo or fetus as a glob of yuchy tissue to be scraped away at whim. Only when it can coo...can these people visualize it as an irreplacable human. This type of shallowness lies in the values they hold. Often people of like values live like birds of a feather.

And if you were honest, you would realize that some people view this globby tissue as irreplacable human life, valuable and worth protecting. They don't see a glob, like perhaps you do. They see life. Its RIGHT to life is important to these people.

That is why...it is a state issue. A supreme court is not the entity to decide when life begins. All that is dictated by the values of the culture and the people.

 

I don't believe that life begins at conception, and many scientists don't either. So what makes my opinion and my values shallow? What makes yours superior to mine?

Oh yes, and these same fetus worshippers lose all interest in protecting that irreplaceable, valuable human life as soon as it's born. Generally, they are pro-war, anti-welfare, anti-national health care, and anti life-saving regulations. Wouldn't you think if the fetus worshippers thought abortion ended a life, they would do everything possible to reduce the rate of abortion? They don't, however, and that's how we know it isn't about the unborn at all, it's about controlling women.

And you think some of the people should be able to force their values on the rest? Our individual rights are not subject to a vote.

 

TOO BAD! IT DIDN'T and now

Abortion is legal for every American and that is as it should be....

 

Starting at conception, the best position that the pro life side can get to from a science perspective is "experts disagree"

This is a fallacy because no self respecting subject matter expert in a relevant field of biology that claims with a straight face that a single human cell = a human, a homo Sapien, a baby.

Sure you might be able to fine some off the reservation fellow that will use some convoluted language to disguise the truth but even these are few are far between.

So best position for lifers is "experts disagree" which leaves them at " I don't know"

Now we go to the constitutionally protected right to life liberty and pursuit of happiness on the part of the woman.

If we value these rights then we need a very good reason to deny them. This would mean we would have to come up with a valuation of the rights of the single cell at conception that outweighs the rights of the woman.

How do we start to put a value on " I don't know" ? It would be absurd to claim that the value of "I don't know" somehow outweighs the rights of a woman.

This is a good place to start.

Things get more complicated later in term when the premise that a living human exists actually has some legitimacy.

I think if lifers would focus primarily on late term abortions instead of " All Abortion" we could reduce the number of unnecessary late term abortions to next to nothing.

Focusing on all abortion is actually counter productive. Less educated folk will sometimes buy into the nonsense that " its a baby" in the early term and the moral dilemma created will sometimes postpone the decision to abort.

 

Since when was life important to humans ? We must kill life in order to survive.

Human life is not always important either. Sperm, Egg, is human life. Billions of human cells die every day and we do not shed any tears for this form of human life.

A category of human life that is important is "a living human"

The fetus can not legitimately be claimed to be a living human until at least 20-24 weeks give or take a week.

I have no problem with letting the states deal with the issue once the fetus actually qualifies as a living human.

I agree that the Supreme court is not qualified to determine what constitutes a living human. Subject matter experts in a relevant field of biology should be deciding what constitutes a living human, perhaps with some input from bioethicists and philosophers as to what constitutes personhood after that point.

 

"The Abortion Issue - Can it be Solved?"

yep, let the people of both side choose fort themselves... problem solved

 

1. Let states set abortion policy. The Supreme Court's justification was BS.

2. Not really. Abortion needs to be legal and unregulated, but let the states make the decision.

 

StephTheStudent said,

Good luck on the project. You have come to a place where 99% of the people posting are rabidly pro-abortion, where no scientific evidence for life matters. They stand on hypocritical positions. Example. They want abortion legal, why? Because they believe the woman has a right to her body. Its the privacy issue for them. Doctor assisted...killing if woman want to kill her unborn. BUT. They then want to take the rights to her body away. Some bring the viability issue into this....ya see the bigger and more baby looking the fetus gets...the more rights it should have. They have no idea when viability starts. Somewhere between 18-26 weeks. They base it on their bias. So they really don't believe a woman has a right to her own body...because they don't want late term...but think that people like me who want abortion illegal...cant tell a woman that she cant abort at all. Hypocrites.

As long as there are people with morals...who value life this issue will not, will never go away. Science is on the "life" side. Actually if you believe that a new humans life begins at conception there is only one gray area...when the woman's life is in danger. This happens in less than 1% of ALL ABORTION CASES. Rape and incest is included in this 1% statistic.

If you believe in the value of life...then you have to believe that killing a living human being however small is wrong. Can you imagine how many humans we would have worldwide had abortion been illegal? This crowd would have you believe however that every one of these women would have self aborted with a coathanger. This is a myth...and a big propaganda piece for the pro-abort. It is a scare tactic.

If what the pro-choicers say is true....then there should be no limits on abortion. If its a woman's body...girls body...she should call the shots period. All abortion should be legal for any reason...any time. This bunch of rabid pro-aborts believe the tax payers should foot the bill for all the sexual needs of every individual...including the killing costs.

Should someone have the right to kill a living human being? And there are two sides.....two lives to think about. If this were not true...we would not be debating this issue. The pro-aborts forget the life already started. This is why I call anyone who want abortion legal....a pro-abort. THEY WANT NO PROTECTION FOR THE UNBORN. They can't be pro-life, not if they are content to sit back and allow lives to be slaughtered.

It will never totally be solved because there is evil in this world. And abortion is evil. There will always be people who support evil acts. But certainly going back to a time when abortion was illegal would help to solve or curtail the lives lost to abortion. Women would know that abortion is not there as a last minute birth control back up plan. They would take more responsibility for their actions. More babies would be born, more children to adopt. It is the right thing to do.


Thoughts on statistics. There is no such thing as statistics that are 100% accurate. Guttmaucher is the biggest site everyone goes to for stats. But it is an offshoot of Planned Parenthood and I have done research on the board and they are almost all pro-abortion. There is a bias there.

To get true stats one would have to interview every woman that had an abortion...and this would be impossible because most women like me who have had one...don't want to fess up and talk about it. This is not a subject you talk about at cocktail parties, Christmas dinner table, church pot luck supper. People know abortion is immoral so facts and truths are hidden. They want it to go away. The group here says no woman suffers from past abortions. But then how would they know when they have no had one?

If there is something wrong with abortion....why not stand up for life and if there isn't something wrong...why not embrace the label, pro-abort. But the fact is no one wants that label for all the obvious reasons. If someone says...they are not for abortion...they would not get one personally but they believe others should have the choice....they are PRO-ABORTION. They stand in the same line with those who condone killing and don't want protection for the unborn. These people believe if the majority think its ok, its ok. In that case...slavery in the South for them is ok.

They don't stand up for what is moral and right.....they simply don't care.

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And if one side wants late term abortions legal......thats ok, right?

 

Giftedone

Why have laws to protect anyone? Would it be ok if someone killed you today because they don't want you to live? They believe the earth is overpopulated and if you go its one less to feed? Life might not be important to you......if so why keep on living, debating? Life is all you have...without it...where would you be? And we don't kill just to survive. You can live and not kill people.

A womans egg without the sperm...the sperm without the egg...is not a human life, they are components. It is when they both meet...that a new human life starts. A mans ejaculated sperm....is nothing. Billions of cells can die....but they are not newly created human beings. The skin that flakes off your body...the nail clippings from your body, your hair...etc....none are human beings.

Not if you think abortion should be legal.

It is a new human life so says science. But you pro-aborts reject science when it suits you. So you think a woman should be able to abort at 24 weeks? My niece was 23 1/2 weeks when she was born and she made it. Do you see how close you are to viability? LOL So its not a living human being....at 24 weeks. LOL

You just can't figure out when that is can you? LOL And then if you tell a woman she cant abort....are you taking her bodily rights away?

So the SCOTUS is not qualified...but state governments are qualified? LOL You pro-aborts ignore what science says about life. Experts already acknowledge that life starts at conception...a new human life starts. Why should philosophers have a say?

 

Lies...I am not pro-war. Your use your own bias...not fact to form your opinions. And thats all they are.

Well of course you are pro-late term abortion, right?

If you are against it.....YOU ARE FORCING YOUR POSITION ON OTHERS. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU DO THIS?

 

Steph here is more evidence.


Some of the world’s most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception:

A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.

1 Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981.

2Landrum Shettles and David Rorvik, Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence of Life Before Birth (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1983), 113.

3 Ashley Montague, Life Before Birth (New York: Signet Books, 1977), vi.

4Bernard N. Nathanson, “Deeper into Abortion,” New England Journal of Medicine 291 (1974): 1189Ð90.

5Bernard Nathanson, Aborting America (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1979).

6Shettles and Rorvik, Rites of Life, 103.

7John C. Willke, Abortion Questions and Answers (Cincinnati, OH: Hayes Publishing, 198, 42.

8Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, 7.

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/8/scientists-attest-life-beginning-conception/