The Book of Revelation and the Bible

In what way did he lay down his life if he still lives on?

 

That is one way of looking at it but it isn't actually biblical.

 

Which Bible did not exist before the 7th century? The Vulgata is a late-4th century translation of an older Bible. What exactly did the translator of the Vulgata use, if the texts they translated didn't exist until 3 centuries later? What exactly did early church fathers use for their theological dissertations - texts that didn't exist until centuries later? And why did the creators of your alleged seamlessly flowing brand new Bible feel the need to create two versions of the Jewish Bible, one in Hebrew and one in Greek?

The Talmud is a compendium of laws and commentaries, that's why it's hard to read. It's not a novel. Based upon a comparison to Friedrich Engels' works, which were written by a German, Schiller's work was surely written by an Italian. Right?

Some of the early Christian sects were far more powerful than you think. Some were mainstream. The gnostic Valentinians, for instance, were so influential, that one of their leaders was a candidate for Bishop of Rome (Pope).

You make the same mistake religious people do when defending their faith: you use for your analysis only the text of the canonical book, ignoring both history and scientific research. You're cancelling millennia of human civilizations, human development, human achievements, human relationships. Why?

 

There is no legitimate copy of the Bible before the 680's-early 690's when three master copies were produced in Latin. One copy still exists. Can you produce your late-4th century Bible? The Greek Bibles were translations and written in Modern Greek. There was no Hebrew Bible. At the most it was simply the first 5 books and who knows for sure when that was compiled?

If you stopped and thought about it, you would realize that the Bible was all written at the same time by the same committee because of the way the stories flow from book to book in sequence. That would not be logical if different characters scattered around the ancient Middle East had written separate single copy papyrus scrolls. It would be like a guy in Boston writing a short letter in the year 500 and another guy in New york writing another short letter in the year 700,while other people write their own letters hundreds of miles apart and over a time period of maybe a thousand years and, like magic, they all get collected in order despite all of the wars and natural disasters that have taken place over that time.

 

Subjecting himself to mortality, he died as do we all. Then the guards stabbed his side into his heart, from which blood and water poured out. Then they put his body in a tomb. Then he took his body back up again. That's how he lives and secures the power of the resurrection, having overcome all things, even death.

 

It doesn’t ring true to me. Romans Chapter 5 outlines how the death of Christ is intended to balance out the sin of the first man, Adam. It lets us know that the wages of sin are death. Yet Christ, who claims to pay this price on behalf of humanity dies not die. He continues to live on at his father’s right hand to this day. A true sacrifice means the loss of something of great value. How can we truly say that God gave his only begotten son when his son is sitting right there beside him?

 

There are many individual manuscripts that date much earlier than the 680’s. The Latin vulgate was gathered together at around 400 from earlier Latin texts that were based on Greek manuscripts dating from as early as 80-100 CE.

 

I see what you mean Dayton. Salvation, from beginning to end is charity. And the nature of charity is that it can only be given from ones heart by ones choice, rather than something to be taken or demanded in owing. Consequently, to presume to be owed charity or salvation in heaven is to deserve hell. God has been so charitable to mankind, from the creation of all things, including our very lives, to laying down his own life, and sustaining us all the days of our lives, that we tend to develop a presumption of entitlement. So it is best to put away our greed and lust for reward, and simply wait upon him and trust in his discernment, that by and by, he, our perfect exemplary servant might smile upon us. We are ever the indebted. So what have we to lay claim when it is our Gods claim to make. And what then is salvation if his kingdom is not already within us to claim and gather. He knows his own, and they know his voice.

 

You are ignoring time, distance, natural disasters, wars, etc. The point I am making is that there was no authentic Bible as a complete book before the committee wrote it in England. They followed Uthman’s example and wrote the Jewish/Christian fairytale as one book. The Bible did not exist before that. The Powers That Be (TPTB) concocted assorted lies about earlier Bibles but there are no legitimate copies of any of them.

Remember, the Bible is being defined as a complete book consisting of 80 smaller books (stories).

 

How did all other myths and religions arise? From primitive tribes like the Maori to advanced civilizations like ancient Persia or Greece, from the jungles of South America to the Far East, every society known to history developed its own religion, its own mythical stories, its own complete guide to how and why the world exists and functions. How did they manage to do it? Scandinavian, Greek, or Hindu myths are breathtakingly beautiful, so much more than the Christian Bible. Were all of those stories written by committees with agendas?

 

The Christians didn't have their fairy tale written in a single book. Uthman established a committee to compile the first standard version of the Koran. The Muslims went on the warpath so the Christians needed a propaganda weapon to counter the Koran. As a result, they formed a plan to write the Christian fairytale into a book so they got busy. They wanted their site to be out of danger of being raided so they decided to do it in England. They got the best story tellers, scribes, and artists available and grew a large herd of cattle for the vellum to write on.

The committee produced three master copies in Latin, each weighing 75 pounds. One copy still exists. All other Bibles are derivatives from those original sources. The Bible did not exist as a book before that time.

If you read Sirach (CEB) chapters 44-50 you will see how easily you can remember all of the main characters and their deeds. And with that as a foundation you could write a 2,000+ page religious fairytale without any trouble at all.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=sirach+44-50&version=CEB

 

Jesus didn't die to save his Father who needs no salvation. It was for mankind. The sins of Adam and Eve which brought death was a breaking of an eternal law. To answer the demand of that eternal broken law and to satisfy it required the death of a sinless person. Jesus was sinless, and he laid down his life unto death. In so doing he satisfied the demand of the law. By taking his life up again, he brought about the power of the resurrection.

 

Those decisions were made long ago. The Church hasn't "thrown out" Biblical books.

 

So what was sacrificed ..when nothing was lost ? interesting question but really .. we are talking Gods here .. suppose the sacrifice was to send a mesage .. symbolic sacrifice.. You see the God's don't generally mess with the experiments - whats the point in doing an experiment to see what will happen .. if you mess around. No point in betting on 13 .. and then placing ball on that number .. where is the fun in that ?

But, perhaps .. from time to time the send down a little divine inspiration.

The Jesus experiment didn't go so well .. the human the Gods adopted ended up cursing out the Gods at the end of the day... but, perhaps part of the mission was successful - codifying the Golden Rule - and the human got to live at the end of the day .. despite all the bickering and forsaking and all that.. was pissed though .. damn spear hurt !!

This post avoids the question .. building a bit of a strawman .. as who said Jesus died to save his Father ? but then asks an interesting question followed by an answer.

Yes .. a message was sent to mankind .. a wee bit of Cosmic intervention... no idea where you get the breaking of eternal law from though .. and you don't mention what this law is .. so what is the point ?

Adam's sin was to gain knowledge of good and evil .. - but then why give humans brains .. if only to fill those brains with nothing .. so there must be more to the story ..

You see .. it is a bit of a "Sin" amongst Gods to mess with another God's experiment .. this intervention was then the Sin .. Jesus was the Fix .. or well.. an attempted fix .. didn't turn out so well initially but perhaps in the future...

So .. in a way seems Like Jesus indeed died to indeed try fix what the Gods had messed up.

And now we know "The Rest of the Story"

 

Sounds like a bunch of Democrats thought that one up. Whoever wrote the story wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

 

Jesus's sacrifice secures our resurrection and immortality. We remain accountable for our personal sins. Which is why the admonition to accept the Saviors offering, have faith in him, repent of our sins unto forgiveness, be baptized and received the Holy Ghost by one having the Priesthood authority to do so. And continue on in our lives in obedience to the laws of God.

 

- Not according to Jesus ..

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Not according to Martin Luther

 

The thing to really consider is that the different books of the bible that existed prior to the Latin Vulgate being compiled around 400 ce represented different opposing groups of Christians that existed in early Christian times. As an example, one of the first attempts to canonize these books into one bible came from Marcion of Sinope who created a list of manuscripts around 140 bce. Although his effort is seen as a catalyst for canonizing the scriptures and his method laid the foundation for future efforts, he himself was excommunicated from the church. He taught Christianity from the Gospel of Marcion which thought to be an edited version of Luke.

As Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire it became necessary for these factions to unite. One of the first attempts to unite the opposing Christian doctrines was the council of Nicaea in 325 ce that settled several points of contention such as establishing the Trinity doctrine (which contended that Christ and God were co-equals ) as the official doctrine over the Arian doctrine (which contended that God was the father of Christ and had created Jesus).

This is an example of the Christian faith being created by humans as I contended earlier.

There are other reasons I hold that opinion too. Since the original manuscripts of the bible cannot be found, it is impossible to say how much the bible has been altered from its original form. For example, the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke, the synoptic gospels, are thought to have been derived in part from an earlier source known as Q which may or may not have existed. The existence of Q is hypothesized due to the similarities between the synoptic gospels which are similar enough to seem like plagiarisms of an earlier text that can no longer be found.

 

Speaking objectively, regardless the variety of opinion and interpretation in regards to the matter. It seems reasonable to conclude, that essentially it is our eternal welfare in the balance. Therefore, securing the matter should be the goal. Not bickering the particulars of a path not traversed. Jesus said, "enter ye in at the straight gate." Matthew 7:13-14

 

Why do you keep ignoring some main points of the fairy tale?

1. In the Bible, only israelites/Hebrews/Jews are considered men. Gentiles are considered dirty animals.

2. The Jesus character said that he had only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That does not include anyone else.

3. The Jesus character told his apostles that on Judgment Day they would sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. No one else is invited.

4. The fairy tale says that 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel are sealed. Heaven is a giant 1,500 mile -sided golden cube called New Jerusalem (get the hint) that has twelve bejeweled gates, one for each of the twelve tribes. There are no gates for the Gentiles.

 

Good points. There is no actual evidence any of the popular beliefs are reality. They are just myths. The first actual proof is from the late 680's-early 690's.

The whole thing is very similar to the creation of the Islamic hadiths, which were written centuries after Mohammed supposedly bit the dust. They contain detailed dialogue supposedly spoken by Mohammed. So, everyone should know that is BS but hundreds of millions people believe them without a thought. It is like lots of the dialogue in the Bible with just one character.

 

With both The Quran and the bible, there were countless stories circulating at the time. What was included in the canon of each was just whatever fit the doctrines of the prevailing faction at the time.
Some even speculate that the story of doubting Thomas was included to discredit the followers of Thomas whose book was excluded from canonicity.

 

I didn't ignore anything. I responded to DRI's post regarding the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I don't know where you get your other ideas. But they seem designed to exclude yourself from the matter. It stands to reason that if God created Adam and Eve, then we are all part and parcel to that family. Right now I will tell you that YOU DO KNOW the eternal God. But you have forgotten him as that is the state of mortality. So just know that when you lay out your rather extensive research and knowledge, what I hear is a well versed and educated man who knows much except for the truth. Therefore you have nothing with which to align or compare your gatherings and constructions. FWIW, I learned of God from God before I understood or delved into anything scripturally.

 

Indeed .. and not through the crooked Martin Luther Path

 

As I mentioned before, it is estimated that there have been about 330,000,000 gods so what makes you think that one of the biblical Jewish gods is the real deal?