The Book of Revelation and the Bible

Well do tell Dayton. How does it work at the end of days ?

 

We don't "earn" salvation through good deeds or any actions. We are saved through the grace of God.

 

Yeah .. the "Free Pass" hypothesis - aka "Sola Fide" - Salvation by Faith alone - a dogma pioneered by Martin Luther ... author of the famous Treatise "On the Jews and their lies"

It is true that perhaps as much as a third of Christianity adheres to this dogma .. the majority - "Orthodox and Catholic" do not - both having a works component in their salvation formulation.

If we go to the Bible though .. in particular what Jesus had to say on the issue - works is definitely a component of one's salvation. The Sermon on the Mount being the primary Treatise from Jesus on how one gets through the pearly gates.

Its not that I don't like the idea "Free Pass" though judgement ideology - "Where do I sign up" !! ... just that it is not what Jesus Preached.

 

The OP deems it "mad, perverse and unchristian." It does not appear so to me. In effect it does not compromise my testimony of Jesus Christ, but rather reaffirms it. As such, it is as effectual to the cause as any testimony of Christianity. However it does exalt Jesus the common man above the most terrifying of evils that haunt mans soul. This causes his divinity to be unfathomable by virtue of the absolute terror betwixt heaven and man. Revelations then sweeps away mans bliss and exhorts us to behold the true nightmare of accountability should we look, procrastinate or make light of the matter. As far as I've read, it puts the entire world in the grip of evil and the consequences to come. That we know our daily lives to be sustained in mercy and grace and peace contrary to Johns vision, means that either Johns visions are utter madness, or that God is truly kind in extending his blessings after us while those beasts yet open wide to devour us, and the whore to corrupt and deceive us. So we are sustained and Gods pleas are extended to our salvation. But for how long? How long will the world deny? And when will God say, enough, and cease to hold back true evil, avenge his Prophets and saints, and give to the world the evil it loves and deserves. Consequently, to remove the book of Revelations would be to close our eyes to forewarning and hand victory over even more souls to Satan on a silver platter. It is silly to even consider. The science of the printing press has antiquated the notion.

 

Not if we persist in wickedness. One is not saved in sin, but from it. The first principles of salvation require our faith, then repentance, then baptism, then reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost. So from the start we labor. Jesus himself said the way to life is narrow, which defines conformity or actions on our part. Yes at the end it is by Gods grace that we are saved. But we must traverse the course by the exercise of our free agency to arrive at that place. His grace is all along the way, beginning to end.

 

I am the only no comment vote.

 

Faith without works is dead.

 

Don't you understand by now that the Bible consists solely of the stories written by the original committee that wrote the Bible in the 680's-early 690's? The Bible did not exist before that group wrote it. That is why all of the stories flow seamlessly from beginning to end and why they all tie into one or more of the real Ten Commandments.

Based upon a comparison to the Jewish Babylonian Talmud, which was written by Jews, if Jews had written the Bible it would be unreadable.

If other sects had other gospels and writings, they were not mainstream Christians and even the Bible mentions that. It's like the Joseph Smith cult that claims to be Christians because they mention a guy named Jesus. Would you incorporate the Book of Mormon into the short Protestant Bible or the actual Bible (Catholic version) that has the original 80 books?

 

Have you ever read Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV) =
"12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

Speaking of the Apostle John and Revelations. I think we owe Jews honor and thankfulness for the Bible and for scribing their associations with God over thousands of years, mostly their Prophets, Priests, and saints. But all honor and thankfulness belongs to God himself because he chose Jews to be his voice to all kinds, to call the world away from their idols, and extend the prospect of salvation, hope, and eternal life to all thru Jesus Christs great sacrifice.

 

That does not mean what you seem to think it means.

"works" are simply a means by which Christians manifest their faith. But their "works" does not earn them salvation.

 

Me neither - and given the vision was interpreted on the basis of a Christian Narrative -- as opposed to a Hindu Narrative .. .. hard to call it "unChristian" -- kind of ridiculous.

That said - not sure there is any addition to the teachings of Christ in Revelation.

I don't see Rev as doing either ..

This is interesting - a key concept - and a distintion along the religious spectrum. Kings and Leaders figured out long ago that Religion was an excellent tool for the control of the masses .. something these folks paid much attention --- as if the people revolted .. they not only killed you but all your family and your court.

The recognized that the "Fear Factor" kept people in line ..was woven into their philosophy and religious belief .. the Egyptians had the concept of "Maat" -- like Karma - at the end of days .. your deeds were weighted on the scales of Justice - if you were found to light you were fed to the monster ..but that was it .. No "Eternal Punishment"..

As time progressed .. the fear factor was ramped up .. Zoroastrianism introducing the concepts 1) monotheism - which Judaism adopted and 2) Eternal Punishment in the Afterlife .. which they did not. the focus here was still on deeds .. that one would be punished for one's nasty deeds - rewarded for good deeds.

Christianity took things to a different level -- it ramped up the fear factor further .. but, emphasized something other than - or in addition to - deeds. The Children were now taught .. If you Question, or "disbelieve" certain tenets of said holy book - the worst thing the mind can imagine will happen to you .. Eternal torture in the afterlife .. for ever .. and ever .. and ever.

this fear gets lodged deep in subconscious - is triggered when the adherent comes across info that conflicts with belief .. the fear triggers an avoidance "thought Stopping" response .. as thinking the "Bad Thought" might cause on to end up in the bad place.

The skillful cult leader ramps up the fear factor further with apocalyptic narrative .. creating a black vs white - good vs evil - God vs Devil paradigm.. Cult dogma "Good" -- anything which conflicts -- any person which conflicts "Evil" -- under the influence of Satan .. a form of xehophobic demonization and dehumanization of the other - one of the numerous "Thought Stopping" techniques in which the adherent is trained - without their knowledge.

Every Religious - and some non religious - forms of mind control has a good apocalyptic narrative to ramp up the fear factor .. and on this basis alone one should take Revelations with a grain of salt.

Muhammad came along - used the same template the Christians had created - and ramped up the fear factor even further. Every second page of the Quran ... do this and be roasted in the fire .. do that and suffer eternal torment ... on and on.. focusing both on deeds and belief .. failing either earns one a terrible fate.

Not sure when the divine ones will decide this experiment has run its course .. not sure they will meddle it all- as humanity seems hell bent on ending the experiment without any divine intervention.

Don't think "Sataniel" can win more souls .. that doesn't seem to be how the game is played. In this game .. sfar as I can reckon the Christian narrative .. Satan starts out with all the souls .. the object of the game is for the other side is to get as many as possible.

Revelations is kind of arch type - for this battle.

The question for me is if there is any prophecy to be found .. and while many might attach this to some kind of formal religious belief - I do not.

What I find particularly interesting in Revelations is the description of how the "whore of Babylon" will fall .. no one wants to buy or sell to her .. but to do anything you need the mark of the beast ..

The Beast is some kind of political economic system which has taken over .. the Whore of Babylon is the US .. promulgator of this evil system .. which is able to control the people without them realizing it like old systems were .. and now we are being compelled to take the mark .. our bodies now property of the State - to do with what they will .. the policy the State imposing dictated by the Healthcare Oligopolies . - one head of a multi headed beast.

but - what do I know - prophecy is a tough game.

 

While the Bible is an ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tale, it is doubtful if Jews had anything directly to do with writing the Bible. A committee of writers, story tellers, and artists produced three master copies in Latin under the direction of the Catholics. One copy still survives. There is no authentic copy of a complete Bible in Hebrew before that time.

Remember that passage the writer slyly threw in 1 Timothy 4:7 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 Timothy 4:7 How many absurd and silly myths are there in the Bible?

 

I expect to be cremated after I croak, so that should get me ready for the lake of fire. Enjoy your salvation.

James 2:14-26 (CEB) =
"14 My brothers and sisters, what good is it if people say they have faith but do nothing to show it? Claiming to have faith can’t save anyone, can it? 15 Imagine a b
rother or sister who is naked and never has enough food to eat. 16 What if one of you said, “Go in peace! Stay warm! Have a nice meal!”? What good is it if you don’t actually give them what their body needs? 17 In the same way, faith is dead when it doesn’t result in faithful activity.

18 Someone might claim, “You have faith and I have action.” But how can I see your faith apart from your actions? Instead, I’ll show you my faith by putting it into practice in faithful action. 19 It’s good that you believe that God is one. Ha! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble with fear. 20 Are you so slow? Do you need to be shown that faith without actions has no value at all? 21 What about Abraham, our father? Wasn’t he shown to be righteous through his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 See, his faith was at work along with his actions. In fact, his faith was made complete by his faithful actions. 23 So the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and God regarded him as righteous.[a] What is more, Abraham was called God’s friend. 24 So you see that a person is shown to be righteous through faithful actions and not through faith alone. 25 In the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute shown to be righteous when she received the messengers as her guests and then sent them on by another road? 26 As the lifeless body is dead, so faith without actions is dead.

Matthew 16:27 (NKJV) = "27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

According to the biblical creation story, how did God make everything? Was it done by faith or by his labor (works)?

 

Who cares? God is not a human being. How he does things is not the same as mere man.

 

Have you ever heard of examples? If God created everything by works why would you think that you can save yourself by faith?

If you have faith go outside and command the nearest bush to uproot itself and to jump into the nearest body of water. So far, no one hashed that much faith. They have to remove the bush by their work (labor), and then toss it into the water.

 

I think the faith without works is dead phrase sums it up. You can have faith that your are saved but if you live your life as a victimizer causing everyone pain then you have nothing.

faith is like the soil and the works are the fruit of that soil. If your faith in God is true then your behaviour will demonstrate that. You will be moved to good works and kind actions.

 

Doesn't work that way genius.

 

The fable is your saying that the God of the Jews is a fable. Being the Captain of ones domain doesn't make one the knower of all things. Just because one is blind to that which is sacred doesn't mean that that which is sacred is nonexistent. I know that God is a real personage, that he lives and is divine. And as we speak, his work of salvation is afoot.

 

His work may be a foot to you but its 30 cm to Canadians.

 

Apples and Oranges
Deborah is from the Bible. Stone engraved manuscripts
tell the flood story from ancient Mesopotamia before
Deborah appeared.

What is the oldest manuscript from the testament of Jesus?
I believe it is Thomas.


thus spaketh
Moi
chosen

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Whatever makes you happy.

 

If that belief gives you comfort, keep it.

 

Well, it is comforting. And it is a fact rather than a belief. That one loves ones Wife or Husband is no less true just because no one else in the entire world knows it. Setting aside his omnipotence, God is actually a good person at heart. He has conceived within his heart to give life to mankind. And then he laid down his own life to save them from what they could not accomplish themselves, to share his inheritance in eternal life with them because it pleases him to enlarge their souls and cause them joy. The revolutionary nature of this is incongruous to this fallen, secular world. But no less revolutionary or miraculous than the springing up of life from the constancy of death which is all around us. And yet we take this miracle in stride as if it is how it should be simply because it is. Granted that the stakes of rebirth and salvation are greater than our first birth in mortality. But if the allowance of providence gives us to glimpse heaven while yet in mortality, and to labor to that end. Then how much odder is it than that a virgin should conceive and bring her child to term. Is the power of God neutered by the powerlessness of men simply because they say that one cannot be reborn. Is renewal an alien concept.