The Book of Revelation and the Bible

Is "The Book Of Thomas"
still the oldest biblical book
manuscript?


the article linked is difficult to read.
Maybe, someday, it will appear in modern
English.


Moi

​

 

I see the book of Job as a mash up by at least two authors who were drawing on an older tale of non-Jewish origin. It is the only pre-temple period story that references the existence of Satan and although it addresses the question of why god permits suffering it never mentions life after death as a reward for piety. Everlasting life was never on the table for pre-Christian Jews anyway which is also a pretty good indicator that Christianity is an addendum to - not the fulfillment of - the Jewish scriptures.

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges+5&version=NRSV

I think the oldest manuscript is the Song of Deborah from Judges 5:2-31. It’s one of them anyway.

 

Of course you can!
Like around the year 400 Anno Domini.
When it was decided which scriptures should form the Bible.

Then that perverse and revolting "Book of Revelation" had a narrow escape.
Many thought that it did NOT deserve a place in the Bible.

It is a great pity that this piece of perverse rubbish was included into the Bible after all.

 

Well said!

 

So you think everything should be deleted that is not according to your taste?

 

so far:

3 x yes
4 x no
1 x no comment

 

That is an eye-opener!

 

Over the years I have discovered that it is necessary to focus on the central theme of the Bible in order to understand all of its parts. It is easy to get caught up in a particular story and miss how it is just one tiny part of the whole puzzle.

My current opinion is that Ezra's whine in 2 Esdras 6:55-59 (CEB) is what the Bible is all about =
2 Esdras 6:55-59
Common English Bible

55 “I have said all these things before you, Lord, because you have said that you created the oldest age[a] for our sake. 56 You have said that the other nations born of Adam are nothing, that they are like spit, and you have compared their abundance to a drop from a pitcher. 57 But look now, Lord! These nations that are valued as nothing rule over us and devour us, 58 while we, your people, whom you have called your oldest offspring, your one and only child, those who are zealous for you, your dearest ones, are handed over to them. 59 If the world was created for our sake, why don’t we possess our world as an inheritance? How long will this situation last?”

All of the biblical stories are based on one or more of the real Ten Commandments in Exodus 34:11-26 and the miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. Therefore, when you start to analyze the stories based on that you can see how they help to answer Ezra's whine. Try it and see if you agree.

 

The second book of Esdras is not in the Hebrew Bible at all. It's not even in the Septuagint. Why do you think it has anything to do with your imagined "real ten commandments"?

By the way, there are 613 commandments in the Tanach, not 10. What Christians call "the ten commandments" are called "the ten sayings" in Hebrew. But you should have known that already, because I told you so, and because it's easy to find reliable sources on this matter.

You base your theory on two sets of canonical religious books - the Septuagint (the heretic version of the Hebrew Bible, called the Old Testament by Christians) and the New Testament. You ignore an incredible wealth of pagan religions, early Christian sects, apocrypha, original writings now lost and replaced by heavily edited copies of copied translations (like 2 Esdras), religious syncretism (very common before and during the advent of Christianity), oral traditions, writings of early church fathers, Gnostic gospels, all of which must be taken into account if we wish to understand how and why did Christianity become what it is today.

Christianity pretends to fulfill old Jewish prophecies. Nothing to do with the commandments. Try Daniel.

 

"The Gospel of Thomas" is dated to as late as 250 AD so that is unlikely.

 

Job 19:25-26 NIV
[25] I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
[26] And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

Yep, it's in Job although the Sadducee's would disagree. There where 2 sects of Jews in Jesus's time:

The Pharasees are those who believed in the resurrection of the body.
The Sadducees are the ones who did not believe in the resurrection.

So, no, the resurrection was not foreign to the Jewish religion although it was hotly debated.

 

In that case, have you considered the following tik tok publisher?

https://www.msn.com/en-in/entertain...is-getting-backlash-from-academics/ar-AARoXkP

Do you similarly believe that Trajan's column is a fake?

Everyone who understands the Bible knows that the Old Testament was gathered together with Chronicles being the last book written.

However, claiming that something wasn't written until the earliest manuscript is truly silly. Julius Caesar's history of the Gaulic War's earliest manuscript in 8th Century at best. So, it has to be nothing more than propaganda and lies to support Charlemagne's reign and the Roman Empire is as real as Game of Thrones!?

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is better than all the manuscript evidence for ancient history. Claiming that the books were "refined into books that effectively graft Christianity onto the trunk of the Jewish holy books" is completely unfounded.

 

I hope, then, you understand that there are many who feel the same way about Leviticus.

 

Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

One way we like sheep go astray is by misinterpreting scriptures and going off into strange paths.

 

Myself included .. but comparing removal of Leviticus to removal Revelations is apples and oranges - for many reasons .. on many levels.
One for example is that Leviticus was not referred to by comtemporaries as "Spurios" .. and no small number believed this .. which is why Revelations had such difficulty getting on the Cannon Club.

Better to restore Barnabus .. and get rid of Revelations .. than the reverse.

 

A primer for Revelation.

 

Correction. When you love God and he you, he blesses and protects you. Occasionally he pares back his hedge of protection for a purpose wise in him. Either for ones own improvement, or as an example to others in how to remain true, as well as the fact that he is the living God when afterwards one is even greater blessed from their afflictions.

 

I understand that completely!

 

And then several more can say they don't like other parts of the Bible. As I've said previously and consistently, I don't follow the teachings of the Bible because I don't believe that a 'book' written thousands of years ago and translated into dozens of languages can truly be relied upon. And now, throw in the twist that you can simply throw out what you don't like...that just nails it for me.

 

Julius Caesar’s history of the Gaulic Wars does not make extreme claims about the nature of reality. Also, Julius Caesar was all about gaining control of the empire so yes, his history is certainly portrayed in ways that make him look great. Since history is written by the victor I am sure that if we sat Vercingetorix down and asked him, he would probably disagree with some part of Ceaser’s account.

Also, Ceaser’s history of the Gaulic wars is not a hotly debated document on which the organization of a huge religious organization is founded. There were not numerous councils to decide what to include in Ceaser’s diary nor were there numerous factions trying to get their interpretation of Caesar accepted as being more true than others.

To be clear, I don’t think that Christianity is not real, just that the mythology on which they have based their doctrine was embellished over time and was created to mesh with a much older religious tradition. To try to argue that this position is analogous with claiming the Roman Empire was not real is a fallacy at best.

 

That's because people are inherently flawed and weak.

The vast majority of people live crappy lives -- usually self-inflicted -- and they wanna believe when they leave here they'll get something special.

I would like to tell them they're in for a big surprise, but few people actually know they died. They just cease to think and that's the end of that and even worse, they don't even know they stopped thinking, so they don't even know they're dead.

The world would be a better place if people just accepted the truth and reality that this is it. This is the only chance you get and regardless of the circumstances people need to do whatever they need to do to make the best of it, so long as they ain't harming others.

No doubt. In some societies, it was Turtle who created Heaven & Earth.

Dude, you owe me a new keyboard. I just spewed coffee everywhere. Excuse me while I change my shirt.

 

Hereby and thereby I meant
the New Testament.

However wrote that Revelation-rubbish must have been a revoltingly perverse idiotic sadist.

 

Or a cow.
Or green ants

 

I am sure there are liberal factions that would like to throw it out as well as several passages. After all, Hitler did it!