The fight for Brexit is only just beginning

Nobody knows - not even top line analytical journalists like Andrew Neil and Laura Kuenssberg.

 

We definitely aren’t leaving now, you can take it to the bank.

 

Yes, the entire Brussels establishment is actively working against her, but she's only just beginning to realise it. Shame she didn't realise it 2 bloody years ago, and none of this would be happening.

 

If we don't, the Constitutional and social ramifications are too awful to contemplate.

 

I want to point out what does the UK get from the EU they can't from their friendship with the USA, their Commonwealth and deals they could make with China for things like food exports to China. Medicine the USA has a large medical supply and big pharmaceutical industry so not that. Trade of goods well they can cut their own deals with anyone they like and in some cases might get a good deal the USA would favor them a lot and China isn't evil they might be a good option and bring the Commonwealth with them to some degree. They get the brunt end of being assigned immigrants many not particularly beneficial to the UK.

My take work on a treaty with the Chinese and the USA to form a replacement for the EU if they leave the EU then go to the EU this known that if forced to go no deal the UK can and will using this replacement option to fill in gaps where they can. The EU is scared the no deal will happen if forced they will give some deal over nothing and having the UK a major rival in Europe and an example one can go. I would even add in a Treaty framework I propose any nation leaving the EU can join it with a simple vote and simple terms to leave and add that big carrot if say France or another nation vote to leave.

 

Far worse than the false narrative of economic end times.

 

What?

 

It's worse for the UK for remain than it is for us to leave with no deal. The political fallout will be worse than any economic ramifications of a no deal.

 

Well, just postpone Brexit, vote in the EU elections (aka kick some German and Brussels butt), and then leave.

 

Ah I see, and agree with you - thanks for clarifying.

 

It's such a nightmare I keep thinking I'm gonna wake up.

 

Also, it's a Russian collusion/conspiracy, which makes things even worse.

 

Oh I forgot to mention again. The Referendum far from telling people they were going to have a No Deal and suffer even worse austerity told voters that the deal would be a piece of cake. It is a very small number of the population who are in the extreme right and the Government is obviously well aware due to the death threats it gets so the police will be keeping an eye on them.

Looking forward to Independence or a Corbyn Government when the **** hits the fan. Why do you think no Tory will take on the job of PM now?

 

Say something often enough and suckers will believe it!

 

that certainly is what you try to do. Hard luck. What I said however was the truth.

 

What you have the power of foresight, do you? There is no precedent for this, so how can anybody predict what the outcome will be? Looks like you've fallen for Project Fear hook,line and sinker.

 

No as you know unlike you a read and study things,. You just go by your feelings. This you have told me and refused to look at links. What I wrote was the truth. I am not interested in post after post which say nothing and are really, as your last one, for personal attack rather than discussing the issues because you, having never read anything, know nothing yourself and as so leave yourself like a pawn to be manipulated by anyone who wants who in this instance has a hatred of Muslims.

 

I'm aware of that Alexa. But there were actually more who voted to leave. And under our democratic system it has always been first past the post. I voted in favour of Brexit, but with the expectation that Remain would win. I was astonished to wake up to discover Brexit had, in fact, won. Had it lost as per my expectations, I would've accepted that in the same way that we all accept the result of a General Election whether or not it accords with our personal wishes.

As we've discussed before I am not agin a trading relationship with the EU. My reservations have always been centred on sovereignty. I am strongly in favour of the UK retaining its own sovereignty - no matter what - and will never forgive our elected politicians for having turned this fundamental right over to completely unelected (but appointed) bureaucrats in Brussels.

My sense is that Corbyn had been out-thought and outsmarted in regard to his historic distrust of the EU. The straw that broke his back clearly was the resignations of the remainer and inflammatory fabricators (anti-semtic meme' ers), the TIGgers, led by the abominable Chuka Umanna. I think this revealed a real weakness in Corbyn.

Both he and May are fighting to stop their respective party's from tearing themselves apart and they now work solely to try to put Humpty Dumpty together again. But both parties are now irreversibly fractured and both will, I suspect, get badly bruised in the general election that is almost certainly going to take place this year.

I really now fear for democracy in the UK. My sense is that we are moving away from it at quite a fast rate of knots. What will replace it, I wonder?

 

I accuse you on this forum of lying through your teeth because I have never expressed any hatred of Muslims and you know it; only of their faith, and even then only the extreme version of their faith. I request an apology before this day is out, or I will raise a formal complaint, because this isn't the first time you've accused me of it.

 

A Referendum has nothing to do with any political regime. The Referendum won the vote to leave and that is all it won. On something which is going to dramatically change the situation in the UK and with such a tiny margin of win which with the number of leavers who have died and the number of remainers who have reached the age of the vote, counts for little except being PC in sticking to Brexit. This is about totally changing the way the UK is and that cannot be done on the whim of about 10% of the population, the No Deal people. A Democracy takes another vote if the Government has failed. A No Deal is the biggest fail there could be. (I am now by the way against a second Referendum)

Leave is accepted. The way to leave is not and that did not work out as the Leaver elite said in the Referendum. It was not a piece of cake. I find the way leavers try to suggest because they won they have every right to put in No Deal regardless of the wishes of the rest of the UK suggestive of those who do not believe in Democracy and intend on putting the UK on an Authoritarian Regime. That Mogg has made it public he wants to support a branch of the hard right from the US going into our Colleges and Universities with the express intent of making extreme right rhetoric mainstream, something they have no concern about making public shows the desire for an authoritarian Britain more clearly.

As things stand going for a hard Brexit we will have much less sovereignty due to the grovelling we will need to do to survive. There are posts on this in the Europe section. Things the US was wanting from us was that the UK public would be sold meat with chlorine and hormones it and not given this information and that the US would be free to give information on any Brits to anyone else it wanted. That our right to information would be removed. There is more but my memory is not the best.

As I said a soft Brexit where we keep our economic relationship with the EU while being able to choose our Trade Deals with the rest of the world which is what EEA does, even if we ourselves do not join EEA, while having no political affiliation would be the compromise which likely, but not necessarily would be accepted by all Parliament and I think almost definitely the vast majority of the public apart from the extremists on both sides. Corbyn's deal is pretty much that. Now Tusk has said we can have a long delay on article 50 some people are wondering whether that is to encourage the hard Brexiters to vote for May's deal which she still has not given up, on fearing if they allow a long gap their will be No Brexit..

 

You know what Jesus once said? Treat others like you want to be treated yourself.
Well, the hatred of Muslims is of their own making. You can't exploit the trust of others forever. Someday the chickens come home to roost.

 

How can you say so much, but not have enough basic intelligence to realise you're merely parroting a load of anti-Brexit Establishment-invented fear-mongering?

 

That's where we fundamentally disagree. A referendum is the ultimate expression of democracy. The Brexit referendum was the largest referendum ever, bar none.

Ignoring, or distorting it is the ultimate betrayal of democracy.

To repeat in the British first past the post system, winning by one seat is considered to be a win and a government is given the opportunity to govern on that basis. Hitherto, referendums have operated on this basis too ----- first past the post. And, in fact, this is what happened in 2016. Leave won and this fact was accepted by everyone at the time - including the remainers.

On the basis of deaths and new voters coming on the rolls, this argument could be deployed every year of every general election, and only chaos would result. Governance cannot possibly operate on this basis.

And I note it is an argument particularly deployed by the dreadful Blair and the so called "People's Vote". I give it no credence at all.

But I rather suspect that should a delay/extension be asked for and granted by Tusk (he's already said this morning he favours a long delay 2 years or so --- I bet he giggling at the prospect too), then this argument is going to eventually win the day. The UK will remain in the EU in some artificial form or other and will increasingly face ever greater losses of what little sovereignty remains over time.

 

And the UK keeps having referendums until they get a vote that pleases the EU.

 

This certainly is how the EU has dealt with prior problems. I think also that we should all be aware of the vile way the EU treated Greece too.

Besides these considerations the political class in the UK have shown themselves to be incapable of delivering on a democratic vote. I suspect this is because an elite decision has been reached to de facto remain in the EU.

As I understand it Article 50 will shortly be revoked by May. That will be the end of Brexit and the can will simply be kicked down the road for a year - or two - and then eventually get lost and forgotten in the thickets of endless political waffle.

Quite how the British electorate will respond will become known at the next election (if not sooner). I know there is anger, a lot of it, out there. But as we saw with Greece, ignoring the people and their anger was the way the government choose to proceed.

Will that be the underlying template for the UK?