The "Hero" Problem

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Battle3, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    https://ericpetersautos.com/2017/04/16/the-hero-problem/

    When the state and its media bullhorns refer to armed government workers – law enforcers – as “heroes,” it’s a sign the hour is getting late.......

    How did it become “heroic” to enforce laws?

    And if it is “heroic” to enforce laws then – ipso facto – the East German Stasi, the Soviet GRU and NKVD were “heroic” also. Right?

    Good question. Any answers?

    On to the real issue.

    Meanwhile, the populace in general still regards them as being there to “protect and serve,” the “thin blue line.” Both are false – and ridiculous – notions. First, they are not there to to protect. This is not their job. The Supreme Court has very explicitly stated this. The job of law enforcement is (wait for it) to enforce laws.

    A hero puts his own self at risk for the sake of others. Law enforcers go to great pains to not do this. The state they work for esteems their lives – their safety (whether a threat is real or imagined) far more than our lives and safety........

    We are not allowed – legally forbidden – to defend ourselves against a law enforcer; we are required to go limp, submit and obey. To “let the courts” sort it out. Even if we end up in the hospital (or worse) first.

    They, on the other hand, my do as they like with us – and largely without repercussions, even when there is video of them en flagrante, committing an act that would land any of us in jail for the same, as in the Georgia incident.

    LE acts with impunity - they are extremely armed and protected both legally and physically from any repercussions to their actions and abuses, even when they kill innocent children (Ayana Jones, 7 years old, cop shot her in the head while she was sleeping). They have no obligation to protect you - we see that in the videos of cops standing around during riots. We also see LE failure to protect people in the gun control meccas such as Chicago and DC in which disarmed people are supposed to be protected by the LE, but clearly are not protected.

    Why do people consider law enforcement officers to be "heroes"?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  2. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Problem with this thread is it a reflection of Trump FanBoy Disease. A condition where 1 = All.
    Today, hundreds of thousands of American cops went about their business in a professional manner. They assisted people in need. They dealt with domestic disputes. They talked to kids. They did stuff normal everyday people do. The vast majority of police do that day in and day out their whole career.
    You have taken a handful of incidents and extrapolated that to ALL law enforcement. It's kind of a f**ked up way to look at life.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  3. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    First, I have been posting in this forum about LE abuses for years. It has zero to do with Trump - but that's a convenient excuse for you to ignore the issue.

    Second, its far more than a handful. Roughly 1,000 innocent people are killed in the USA by cops every year, and the cops almost always go free even when the entire event is on video - for example, John Chapman murdered by cop and all caught on WalMart video; Ayana Jones, videoed by the tv crew of "The First 48". Many more videos of cops abusing and killing if you google it.

    Third, anyone given extreme power including the power of life and death should be held to extreme standards. With power comes responsibility and accountability. When a cop abuses his power, cops should be the first to punish the abuser, its in the best interest of the police community to police themselves to a higher standard. But they do not, cops circle the wagons and protect the abuser.
     
  4. Just_a_Citizen

    Just_a_Citizen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    While I digest this a bit, I'll start with,

    Enforcing laws, in areas where law means little, can be heroic.

    Depending on what side the scales of Justics tip.
     
  5. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

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    I DON'T consider LE to be "heroes".

    Besides, A Hero Ain't Nuthin' But a Sandwich.
     
  6. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who considered all law enforcement officers automatically heroes? I challenge you to identify anyone asserting that simply enforcing the law is heroic. Individual officers are often recognised as heroes when they act in a heroic manner in the course of their duty, often beyond the call of duty (especially if you believe the purported “law enforcement only” remit). Other people are recognised as heroes in the same kind of circumstances but police officers will more often find themselves in the kind of situations and environments where it happens.

    I don’t know America but the depiction of policing presented here doesn’t fit the general impression I get from America. There certainly seem to be significant problems in some places, of which the nature of policing and law enforcement will only be one aspect, but I’m sure it’s a gross exaggeration to suggest the US is some kind of evil police state where poor little citizens are dominated by violent law enforcement immune to any question or challenge.

    And, as is all too common with this kind of rant, there are absolutely no practical proposals or even higher principles offered as an alternative to the status quo. This isn't any kind f attempt to improve matters, just a generic moan. I guess they got some extra hits for that advertising revenue though so it’s all good.
     
  7. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    For one, cops consider themselves to be heroes.
    https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/1768795-What-Makes-a-Hero/

    In fact, cops consider themselves to be warriors in the same sense as a Navy SEAL is a warrior.
    https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ns-why-American-police-officers-are-warriors/

    Or this video (and its about the UK cops):A Tribute To Our Real Life Heroes - The Police Force


    Just google it. There is starting to be a lot of pushback on the "cops are heroes" theme, because cops are not heroes. Some cops do heroic deeds, but a person is not a hero just because he/she is a cop.

    Try resisting a cop in the USA. Roughly 1,000 innocent Americans are killed by cops annually.

    How about these cases:
    Ayana Jones, 7 years old sleeping on the sofa when killed by a cop in a SWAT raid, the cop first blamed Ayana's grandmother for killing Ayana (can you imagine that?) but when that lie very quickly fell apart the cop said the rifle misfired. The producer of "The First 48" who exposed the cop's lie was charged with various crimes and finally plead to obstruction. The cop was not punished. And the raid was to the wrong house. What would happen if you shot a sleeping 7 year old in the head?

    In another SWAT raid - 18 month old Bou Bou Phonesavanh, sleeping in his crib when a cop threw a stun grenade in the bedroom (full of sleeping family members), the grenade landed in the crib and severely injured the baby (over $1million in medical bills). When the parents jumped up to check the baby the cops beat them down, injuring and hospitalizing the father. When sued by the family, the cops claimed the baby and the parents were at fault for the baby's injuries. And the raid was to wrong house. No cop was punished. What would happen if you dropped a stun grenade on a baby?

    Or John Crawford, killed on site by a cop. Crawford was shopping in WalMart when another shopper called 911 and falsely accused Crawford of pointing a gun at people. It was all caught on video, its on the web. The state attorney who investigated said Crawford did absolutely nothing wrong, and then exonerated the cop. So a cop can kill a completely innocent man, and go free. What would happen if you just walked up to a man and shot him dead?



    In Albuquerque, the Albuqerque Police Dept (APD) is so quick to kill that the residents and media say "APD" stands for "another person dead". Google it.



    Of course there are practical solutions, and I mentioned them.

    Hold cops accountable. Don't let cops be above the law. See how simple that is?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  8. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fair enough. I underestimated the rhetoric.

    I would suggest there's a massive distinction between the "law enforcement" you're presenting and the "cops" she is. She doesn't really talk about law enforcement at all but attributes heroism to many of the acts the article you linked claimed police officers can't and don't do.

    I agree. Just because some cops do bad things (or, much ore common, make human errors) doesn't mean a person is an evil and heartless just because they're a cop. I think you're just pushing the rhetoric far to far in the opposite direction, one that is arguably much more dangerous only serves to feed itself.

    Why would I resist a cop?

    They're each and individually bad. Do you think they reflect in any way on any of the police officers who weren't involved in them or anything like them. If I killed someone, I'd be held responsible but nobody else would (should!) just because they're somehow like me in one way or another.

    That's not a solution, that's a wish (a wish you've not demonstrated isn't happening in general terms - it's easy to pick out some worst-case scenarios). You've not really defined the specifics of the problem (or problems), let alone actual individual steps that could be taken to address them. Don't waste your time telling me though, get out there and put in some of the leg work in your own community.
     
  9. Xtremenerd

    Xtremenerd Well-Known Member

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    That's the problem right there, nobody should try to resist a cop, if the cop is in error, you can take legal measures after the encounter to make sure you weren't taken advantage of.
     
  10. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Its a question asked by people who have never been on the receiving end of a cop with a bad attitude.

    What if a cop were clearly violating your rights, clearly abusing his authority, physically and unnecessarily pushing you? Most people in this forum say that you should just "submit", let the cop do what he will and fight it in court, in fact they go even further and say if you don't "submit" to the abuse then you get what you deserve. The facts are that the cop has all the advantages in court - the judge, a jury, will believe the cop over you.

    Go another step, the cop is punching and hurting you, and you raise your arm to defend yourself by blocking his punch - you just assaulted the cop and resisted arrest. And the cop will respond accordingly - you just greatly escalated the situation, in the cops use of force continuum the cop can beat and tase and spray you at will, and will likely call for backup if none are there already (and already beating you).

    Google something like "cops beat helpless man". Cops abuse their power more often than you realize.


    Yet the officers who did those acts (killed innocent people) received the full support of their police departments, the police union, and the state attorneys. Including PR campaigns designed to exonerate the cop and blame the innocent and dead victim. Read about those 3 cases, they are each gross miscarriages of justice and demonstrate the "cops above the law" syndrome is systemic. In each case, one cop pulled the trigger, but all the cops (and the local state attorneys) conspired to cover up the deed, shield the killer, further abuse the victims and their families, and eventually let the killer go free.

    All the cops are guilty not because they are cops, but because of their explicit or tacit approval and support of the killer cop.

    And those are 3 examples. Do your own research, its not hard to find many cases.

    I was very clear. Cops should not be above the law. The cop should receive the exact same treatment as a regular person. The cop mentality of being a "warrior" and a "hero" and the "thin blue line between civilization and chaos", should be abolished, and cops with that attitude should be fired.
     
  11. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    That's total BS. The cop has all of the advantage in court. A judge will believe the cop over you, a jury will believe a cop over you. Unless you are lucky enough to have good video or highly credible witnesses (and not just the people in your car), you are screwed in court.

    Lets walk through the process and see if you like it. The cop decides to - falsely - arrest you. You get handcuffed, driven to the jail, you get processed in (meaning you get searched, your possessions taken, you get to wear a nice orange jumpsuit), you go in a cell with a lot of other "nice" people, you stay there until you get a first hearing in front of a judge - probably the next day. You get bail set, you want out of jail you better come up with the money or get a bail bond. You get a court date, you have to get a lawyer, the state attorney puts pressure on you by adding additional charges. The case drags on, your mental state deteriorates. You are in the paper, in the police blotter section. You boss finds out. One day you go to court. You might win, you might not. It takes months. You might go to jail for a long time.

    Happy?
     
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  12. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    The "public servant doing their job as fake hero" lie narrative is just another indicator of the degree to which public union PR departments, thousands of paid liars at taxpayer expense, have infiltrated and corrupted media channels in every medium. These narratives ooze into movies, tv shows, commercials, Op-eds, straight news, every medium.

    Reminds me of a scene from the Godfather "We have newspaper people on the payroll, don't we Tom?"

    Yeah, they do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  13. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Law enforcement has become a 'heroic' endeavor because racist scum like BLM seeks to actively target and assassinate the police for doing their jobs...
     
  14. Xtremenerd

    Xtremenerd Well-Known Member

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    or....the case is dismissed because of lack of evidence
     
  15. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    That's not a happy ending, you still get arrested, go to jail, deal with bond, hire a lawyer, and go through months languishing in the system while lawyers play games. Even if the end result is a dismissal, you are out $1,000's (maybe many $10,000's), suffer a lot of stress, have to miss days of work, and it is still on your record. Every time an employer checks you out, they will find that you were arrested.

    You live in dreamland if you think you can fight an abusive system by taking your case through the abusive system.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  16. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Arrests don't go on your record. Convictions do.
     
  17. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :roflol:


    Obama said the same thing about submarines.
     
  18. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    Or even worse, the cop lies about why they pulled you over, has portions of the car video spliced out so that it appears they detained you less time than they did, demands the state's right to a blood test despite knowing full well you are sober, plants drugs on you, plants a gun on you, waits for the tow truck to come and move your car out of camera range so they can perform an illegal search, holds a lighter under the blood after it's drawn creating a false positive for alcohol, runs the breathalyzer without resetting it, falsifies evidence room records and chain of custody, replaces your pee with a "hot" sample from a probationer, sits at the DA's table at trial, perjures wildly on the stand making up the most atrocious things, falsifies police reports and edits them after they are filed so you don't know to get the edited version, claims to remember only things detrimental to your case with crystal clarity and forgets literally everything else... have seen all these done.

    but mainly, they lie their asses off. Cops are the most frequent, facile perjurers I've ever seen. The old Law & Order used to hint at that some, but not nearly to the same degree. Cop on the stand? Flip a coin as to whether they are going to lie or not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  19. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    BS. In fact, total BS. Arrests, charges, and court results are all available. Even when a minor turns 18 and their record is "sealed", even when a judge rules that the charges will be expunged if you complete parole with no further violations, the charges are still there. Even when a person is successful in getting their records sealed or expunged (and it usually takes a lawyer - that means $$$ - to get it done even if a judge says it should be done) it can take years.

    And there is always google. You can't expunge your arrest and charges from the entire internet.
     
  20. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps some of those unscrupulous mugshot internet sites could remain or an article in the paper about an arrest etc, but officially, a dismissed case is wholly off the books. Legally, an employer can only verify and ask about convictions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  21. Xtremenerd

    Xtremenerd Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, the Bill of Rights exists for a reason
     
  22. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I expect most law abiding people have never "been on the receiving end of a cop with a bad attitude". If an entirely innocent person is just randomly attacked by a police officer, and resistance would be against a criminal, not a police officer. I believe that situation would be very rare though. The kind of thing you're talking about here is a suspect stopped by police who is aggressive and uncooperative, basically having a bad attitude themselves. Sometimes police officers will over react to that, which they shouldn't do and should be punished for, but I'm confident I'll never end up in that situation for a couple of obvious reasons.

    I'm calling bullhit on that. Can you quote any US legalisation that clearly establishing simply blocking a punch with your arm could ever be an offence?

    I'd suggest it happens about as much as I realise but not as much as you (like to) imagine.

    Officers accused of those acts (guilty or not) are also often unconditionally attacked by the media and the general public who work on the same principle as you do of presuming anyone in a uniform must be guilty and he two attitudes just feed each other. Your nation and states do have some systematic and social problems to address there though. Are you trying to fix them or are you just playing your part in them?

    What are you basing your accusation against every single police officer who has ever worked in the US of supporting "killer cops" in any way? Most of them will have never been close to any such incident and had zero opportunity to influence them.

    In your OP you attacked police officers for "standing around" during riots. If they should be getting the same treatment as the rest of us, should they be required or expected to do anything different?

    Before you start sacking anyone for their thoughts, maybe you need to establish exactly what you do expect from the police and see if anyone would be willing to do the job under your conditions. Consider whether you'd be will to do it. Don't just put yourself in the shoes of the people the police approach as suspects or criminals but also the people who are victims of those crimes. Basically, stop just reacting and actually take a moment to think about the bigger picture. It's much more complex and difficult that you're giving it credit for.
     
  23. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    There are 94 million interactions between cops and civilians every year less than 1 in 10000 end with somebody dead, of those less than 1 in 100 are even questionable.
     
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  24. Battle3

    Battle3 Well-Known Member

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    Please join the real world. Once on the internet, its always on the internet. And if you think that employers don't google an applicant, you are completely out of touch.
     
  25. Sanskrit

    Sanskrit Well-Known Member

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    It varies from state to state. In my state, the person arrested and charged has to take their own time and money to get arrests that didn't result in conviction expunged from the record. All arrests show on the criminal record. Employers get signed permission to pull credit and criminal history and see it all. We have an overaggressive... to the point of criminal... state patrol, a crooked, incompetent state police force, and local cops on the take from towing companies owned by local insiders charging $300 for a 1/4 mile tow, shaking down drug dealers and illegal immigrants, carrying out private vendettas against citizens who POd one of their redneck family. It's a gigantic racket, and one of the only truly bad things about living in my state. I pity the young and powerless that these *******s prey on when the sun goes down. It's so bad in my area that I, a practicing lawyer, don't drive at night unless absolutely necessary. Great place to live otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017

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