The Woolworths ANZAC Scandal and Populist Restrictions on Liberty

Leo2
Like all Australians, I really enjoy the criticism of the country you are visiting.

 

I am Australian and I don't mind *positive* criticism, which is needed in order to progress.
If someone is unable to accept criticism on a political forum, he/she should leave....
Regards

 

I agree... the only one who seems to have taken criticism at anything is Leo2. I'm just trying to ascertain what his point is still.... does he still support the belief that ANZAC day is an event where people get drunk and disordely and conduct triumphalism or not!? Perhaps he has accepted the difference and changed his view, I dunno, all I can tell is he is avoiding the question and softening his stance to "given the events it commemorates, I did not really understand the significance of ANZAC day, and the manner in which it is seemingly celebrated". Still clinging to 'celebrated' I see, but I'm hope his point is not one of semantics alone.

You keep asking the same questions (albeit softened) even after people have responded, don't by shy, spit it out!? So your waiting for an answer you agree with and ignoring the answers for some unkown reason (troll'ng), or waiting for an answer you don't disagree with (biased), or just not paying attention enough to communicate your actual position in your replies? It's probably one of those, but it does not matter to me.

I've explained the 'why' of the manner IMO, I agree with Panzer about a loss being an even better signal that it is NOT triumphalism (as you stated it appeared for some yet unknown reason). If your going to make a point at least back it up, dont go crying about people pulling you up on it. I'll reiterate for you, perhaps you can explain why you disagree?
1. its the first war effort as a nation
2. it was a tough experience
3. it was a loss
4. people died and got injured
5. WW1 really represented the first world war (duh), and this underlined a change in globalism and global responsibility.

There are other things too, but all those things are unique to one event, hence why Gallipoli tends to headline publicity about it. All I've been doing is answer your questions.... if you don't like the heat, then don't turn on the oven.

Was that your answer to me asking if you'd ever been to an ANZAC event/s? Again, you've sort of slipped past the point... avoidance is often seen as a negative response so in the absence of your reply I'll assume you have not. It's not a requirement so please dont get upset again that I'm having to put words in your mouth.... genuine curiousity is usually addressed by someone asking a question and the other person answering (if they want).

Its not a personal discussion, its a discussion forum... I don't mind if you reply or not.

 

It was not a criticism of any sort, and I regret that it should have been interpreted as such. If you have read any of my posts concerning Australia over the past many years, you will have seen the high regard in which I hold Australia and Australians.

Who is crying about people pulling him up? I merely got the impression, from your various accusations, that you had taken offence at my queries, and decided it was prudent not to pursue the matter further with you - I am still of that opinion. I am not here to be right, and I prefer not to nationally offend people, even if inadvertently, but if you wish to continue this discussion I will oblige to the extent of answering your questions.

No, I misinterpreted your remarks as asking whether I had served in the military, and in answer to your more direct question - yes I have attended more than one ANZAC day march, and seen spectators cheering, waving flags, and sometimes drunkenly draping themselves in the national flag (against flag protocol).

I do not consider there to be a competitive element between the country of my birth - Great Britain - and any other, let alone Australia - which most Brits consider our closest friend and relative. I am not a nationalist, and generally despise nationalism, so I find it doubly regrettable that any Australian should find my questions representative of critcism. I sincerely apologise to all the Aussies on this board if I have inadvertently given that impression.

Certain of your remarks, such as -

"basically fighting the Japanese off our coastline while the Brit's ignored us..."

"but I think your shifting your position quietly in the hope you don't get noticed so you don't get held to your initial definition of ANZAC celebrations;"

"Don't be so quick to attack and insult something if you've never experienced.... ask questions yes, but no need to be a richard about it, especially about this particular topic where people have lost loved ones."

"BS, don't squirrel out of your words."

can hardly be taken as anything other than personal.

It is for this reason that I prefer not to continue the discussion upon the present basis. I am sure the membership is bored witless with 'discussion' of that calibre, so I respectfully suggest we leave it there, and I am happy to concede 'victory' to you if that is what you seek.

 

I dont cop criticism from a uni student who has only been here five years.....a uni student......
a know it all uni student....

 

LOL, and what were you doing when you were 19 or 20 - enjoying a professional career with a couple of Masters, and a PhD under your belt? There are worse things than being a uni student - being a pompous old git might be one of those.

 

What are you doing? Mate, you make yourself a laughing stock....
I think you should apologize to Leo, and better think again before you post such a rubbish.....
Regards

 

Throughout your posts you display a condescending attitude, as if you are an expert on the subject.
If you changed your attitude, then maybe Id change mine

 

Look, I honestly don't know how to deal with your statement. I could be as dismissive as you appear to be, but I cannot see what that will achieve, so I will attempt explanation.

I am not aware of ever having claimed expertise on any subject under discussion. But I am aware that the written word, in an adversarial arena such as this, is a very imperfect tool. Facial expression, body language, tone of voice, etc. - all important aspects of communication, are not available, and so misinterpretation of words and intent are not only likely, but almost inevitable. Perhaps that is what has happened, and perhaps I have contributed inadvertently to the misunderstanding.

I am reading for a double degree in Laws, Jurisprudence, and International Affairs, in the course of which I do quite a bit of research, and writing up. It is fairly dry and precise subject matter, and perhaps I have fallen into didactic habits when attempting to communicate - if that be the case, I apologise for giving the impression of lecturing - it is not my intention. I am also given to understand that my language in written form is sometimes similarly dry and precise, which can give the above impression.

I don't think there is much else I can say - your attitude is not something over which I have control, but I consider a degree of understanding to be important in these situations.

 

Some people prefer to manufacture a position of 'victim' and then derail the thread by defending it LOL, seriously.... I cant tell if he still views ANZAC day as "triumphalism" or not. Peeps shouldnt be frightened off by people responding. I 'get' that reaction, a lot of people are not used to being engaged in actual discussion and instead prefer to hang with people who agree with them - so they freak out when someone might disagree with them or have a more informed opinion. I'd refer you to the "like this post" crowd for the biggest offenders in this regard. I don't think posters should take offence to people responding to things they say, I think its more like taking responsibility for it. Some people view questions as attacks for some reason. One of the problems of the internet is people align their self identity with their opinions - which is a recipe for disaster IMO.

 

Simple answer,

Anzac Day has become a mix of triumphalism and celebration, away from commemoration.

Not to difficult to understand, is it? No need to twist or bend the truth, is there?

I, next to many people I know, stay away, and commemorate this special day in private, in my own way.

Regards

 

Kewl, then you'll have some examples then? I'm most interested in this triumphalism, especially since the headline symbol (Gallipoli) is an outright defeat.

 

AT,
it is all there for everyone to watch, so many people so ecstatically exited, even children....

A far cry from the commemoration of the old days, and I have attended some.....

But I guess, everyone to his/her own.....
Regards

 

Wow, ok by your own admission you don't go anymore so I guess your going off popular media, something which only covers the unusual for sensationalism/profit - probably not a good idea to use as a real representation. Ecstatic excitement hey, riiiighhttt, sure....

... that said some diggerz don't go because it does not represent their experience of conflict and they don't want it recognized in the slightest - they are allowed to try and forget because they often cannot - but for some it helps, its about national identity... and most important is the remembrance for in those days it was a big deal, and I get these days many people don't give a toss about the past so much unless they can complain about it and project some of their inner hatred out

 

Oh my God,
I hope its not about our identity. There are a million more things I would identify us with.
But we certainly should never forget the ultimate price many diggers had to pay.
It is only the celebration/glorification of modern times, that's odd........
Regards

 

You are right - doesn't matter if it is Australia, or the UK, or Germany - how our dads, brothers, and sons were sent to be slaughtered does not give us our identity. Australia, like every other society, has an unique identity, but not necessarily like every other - has a very likeable persona. Aussies are generally unaffected, self-deprecating, and unpretentious people, who do not strike me as the nationalistic flag-waving types - which is why certain aspects of ANZAC day observances puzzle me.

And for people who imply some of us are adopting the mantle of victim in this discussion, might I suggest that is far from the case. My rejection of the glorification of war comes not out of a desire for victim-hood, but despite my years - a slight knowledge of the price of war. My mother was created a widow in her late twenties, and I had to grow up without a father from the age of not quite eight. Our attendance of the ceremony at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday, it is not a perfunctory gesture - we remember an officer who lost his life due to selfless acts of bravery which won him a DSO in the Gulf.

I recall inconsequential, (but nonetheless important) things like feeling strangely left out during my school years when other boys were discussing what they did with their respective dads during the school holidays, and the memories of this gentle man in uniform for whom nothing was too much trouble if it was for his family.

Small things, to be sure, but a loss which dwarfs the skirl of the pipes, the shiver of the drums, and rippling of the flags. So I would prefer people do not imply that I have no concept of the meaning of ANZAC Day. To my mind, these events should be commemorated by the sombre measured tread and the muffled drum.

 

Very well said.
Some however (not only on this forum) do have an identity complex, and Anzac is their stronghold.
It is also clear that some of us have gained experiences through the affects of war, in one way or another (that is me inclusive), while others nightly bible stories are reduced to lancer stories in more then 50 shades of heroism.....The reality behind those tragic events are hardly understood, how else would some celebrate those events?
And why, for Christ Sake, would a society employ young children? My daughter is involved in a child care center, and even there are kids drilled for Anzac. Plain disgusting....
Regards

 

What an absolute load of verbal diarrhoea. They want & expect people to forgive and move on with their lives, but every bloody year, they hold a ANZAC march and parade to keep reminding everyone what happened during the war/s.

Where is the bloody logic in that?

1) No Australian died during WW1 protecting Australia form invasion
2) No Australian died during WW2 with Germany protecting Australia from invasion.
3) 17,501 killed against Japan.
4) No Australian died during the Korean war protecting Australia from invasion
5) No Australian died in the Vietnam war protecting Australia from invasion
6) No Australian died in the Iraq war protecting Australia from invasion
7) No Australian died in the Afghanistan war protecting Australia from invasion


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_casualties_of_World_War_II


Australians have the macabre romantic notion about their military dying in wars and conflicts that are none of our business. Every war and military conflict that the Australian military has been involved with, has been initiated or created by another country, and the Australian military is forced to tag along like an unwanted fart, who then tries to pretend they are something special.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see anything special or heroic about an individual willing to kill another individual like a mindless automaton, on the say-so of another person.

If you don't want Australian military personnel being killed, or family members in the military being killed or wounded; then stop sticking your nose into other peoples business, because a bunch of girly politicians tell you too.

 

A Brit complaining about a bit of military marching and flag waving, that's hilarious for starters.

For heaven's sake, ANZAC day has been a thing for about 100 years itself, and yes it's evolved from just a somber dawn service to celebrate positive qualities of the young men who died in war.

I suppose conservatives who think things have gotten too "celebratory" would have a fit if they went to Mexico for the Day of the Dead.

There's no rule that says Australia must only remember veterans once a year, or the manner in which they must do it. Clearly ANZAC day is more popular because it's considered more uniquely ANZAC while armistice day is focused on Europe.

The reason that Gallipoli is the focus is simply because it was the first major campaign that the ANZAC's took part in.

The point is certainly not to celebrate the fact that thousands of Australian's died far from home in a futile conflict, nor is it to apportion blame or play politics. It's simply to remember and acknowledge the people who've gone to war. If you want to wave a flag, go ahead, it's not something to be ashamed about.

 

Gone to war for what purpose? Surely, none of the wars or military campaigns Australia has been involved with, has resulted in Australian troops actually helping to protect Australia/Australians from invasion.

The Brits would have allowed Japan to invade and conquer Australia during WW2 without one of their troops dying to help defend us, and yet 10,000 of our troops died helping the Brits defend against Germany. Whats wrong with that picture?

 

What a load of nonsense.... you can pull one part of a sentence and pretend its a point but its ignorant to the reality it was part of a larger point.... and no-one can deny it is part of our national identity. More so for those involved directly or indirectly and less so for those not involved, but denying it in part defines out national identity just makes you seem like you've got your heads up da Nile. But if you two like to huddle together in misrepresentation because you cannot make up a solid point of your own, go ahead enjoy the warmth on these cold nights fellas

ANZAC their stronghold? Seriously LOL, who and how do you come to that conclusion?
Celebrate those events? The correct term is commemorate but I get how using the wrong term fights your distorted view better hence why you keep it up. If it was triumphalistic ecstatically exciting then I'd agree with you, but it ain't, and you haven't justified your bizarre view on it.
Why is it 'drilled' into kids, because its part of our national identity.

 

Wow, ever heard about strategic planning and operations, and the industrialization of war power in modern times? It seems not based on your view. Do you really think that sitting on our arses waiting for the baddest enemy in the world to finish off everyone else before turning up to face us down on our coastlines is the best solution to defending Australia? We are TINY.... the USMC is probably about 4 times bigger then our entire defence force with more capabilities then us, and then they also have the Army, Navy and Air Force. We are not a player here or anywhere on our own, so your idea is basically having no defence force, really?

 

There are a lot of things wrong with war. But ANZAC day, is about remembering the dead and celebrating their "spirit". Political debates and whatnot are for some other time.

 

Ziggy,
you make me speechless. If a Brit living in Australia can't say what he/she thinks on this forum then it might be the right time to leave. Has Abbott pocketed you all?
Regards

 

But is it also not a time to remember what they died for? What exactly have Australian military personnel been dying in wars and conflicts for? Some distorted 1940's romantic notion of a sailor kissing his gildfriend goodbye, and going off to courageously die in defence of his country?

Oh, but wait, we are constantly being told to forget about past grudges, and let by-gones be by-gones, but every year we hold parades to keep remembering why & how Australian military personnel were killed.

Well, how do you try to forget and move past the hate and grudges of previous wars and conflicts, when every year its chucked up in your face.

The only way a scab heals, is if you stop picking it.