UK Muslim Couple Sentenced to Life for Honor Murder of Daughter

I was talking about the country you said you have spent more than half your life in, and the country of origin of the couple convicted of the honour killings. I assumed you meant the problem was lack of education and your point later on about the poll being from the Tribal areas suggest that. What would you suggest is the solution with the education system to correct the problem?

It doesn’t work, since you can only tell by knowing something about how often it rains and snows. Same goes for honour killings, nobody knows how many but estimates can be made. The fact that you are ignorant of the scale of the problem despite spending more than half your life there suggests you simply don't care about the suffering.

No, I believe by secular, Stuart Wolfe meant people who are not Christian.

Religious authorities are quite capable of making use of religion for political purposes especially in Islamic cultures.

The two are not comparable and I did not say Muslims are sick for the practice of marrying cousins. Neither did I say or imply that homosexuality among Christians makes it progressive. What hypocrisy?

Yes. Muslims in general tend to be less well educated which could be due in part to Islamic cultures couldn't it? Yes, there are similar problems in the Hindu community in India however that is not necessarily evidence that it is not in part at least, a religious problem as it could be so in both cases. Religion is a part of culture so it makes no sense really to speak of the two as if they are seperate entities.

The same does apply as I've stated. You cannot escape the actions of individuals reflects on their community, their sex, their society etc. The actions of pedophile Catholic priests and the Catholic church in failing to deal with the problem effectively and covering up etc. all reflect badly on the Catholic Church. However the case of honour killngs is unlike this case with the Catholic Church on many counts and therefore I will talk now!

The sexual abuse was for personal sexual gratification unlike with honour killings it did not serve as an instrument of social control for the entire community. Therefore Amnesty could not make a valid statement about Catholics in general as it did with Pakistani women. For this reason alone your attempt to compare with number of incidents is nonsense. Every Pakistani women or man who is threatened by the examples of honour killings into taking actions which they would not otherwise do is a victim of the practice. The four children who witnessed their sister's murder are all victims. The priests sexual abuse was clandestine not intended to be discovered whereas honour killings are also to set an example. There is no evidence that the Catholic Church actually encouraged preists to commit sexual abuse whereas honour killings are not only encouraged by the community but often required.

 

What would prove a religion wrong?

This is not simply an unfortunate incident but one of a pattern which together dramatically reveal a very significant and growing HR problem facing many millions, predominantly Muslims.

Religious belief or lack of is part of what makes and comprises character. So we can agree that Do you agree that the influence of a religion can prove to be detrimental? The question is then how to determine what is right and what is wrong (detrimental) in a way that transcends religion?

 

I believe that would make you a bigot and yes bigots make for lots of problems but you are not one remember!

 

Technicality my American elbow! You Canadians are a lot of drunks. Anyone can comment on what they please, but be warned that colonial nits are usually talking drivel, since the redneck rightists among you are entirely ignorant of the world outside your nuthouse.

 

You are not a racist after all.
You hate everbody Indiscriminately.

 

A fatwa signed by thirty odd American imams, what does that mean? Why didn't the remaining few thousand imams in North America not sign it? What about the millions of imams in the rest of the world? In particular what about the imams who were and are responsible for the religious wellbeing of the honour based communities in which these people grew up in?

I guess you find the figure of 6% of the men approving of such killing as small. Well what percentage of girls would that make to be fearful of being killed if they are seen to behave inappropriately and what percentage of brothers may feel obliged to kill their sisters despite disagreeing with the act? What do you think the percentage is for the general population?

 

Given that there is no education at all, providing them with education would be a good first step. Or was it too obvious?

No I'm quite well aware that the rate of pedophilia in Christian priests is far higher than the rate of honor killing in Muslims. I know it is a problem with the culture where there is no education and the law of the jungle still rules. So you see I know the problem and there are many people who speak about how to solve the problem instead of sitting at home insulting and demeaning others.

Oh so every crime committed in US is by non Christians? Care to share where you came up with that from or did you just dig it out of your arse?

Its a problem in every religion. Remember the crusades? Should I remind you of how bloody the history of Christianity is?

You were implying there was something wrong with it. Otherwise what was your point in bringing it up?

No Muslims tend to belong to regions which unfortunately are not well developed at present. The same problems apply to neighboring countries within the region but I guess you don;t want to discuss about that.

A male dominated society where a male does exactly what his religion tells him not to do and yet religion is to blame. How exactly does that make sense?

Only because you wish to see it that way. There are as many Christians committing criminal acts today as there are Muslims. And as for the Jewish state of Israel and their atrocities, but oh I forget, we are not supposed to talk about that. Right?

I did say it all comes down to the religious teachings. If you had a teacher who kept telling you to be a good person yet you went ahead and committed a theft would the teacher be the one to blame or the individual?

Really? Try looking up the definition of a bigot. A bigot is someone who is intolerant of others religion as you have been trying to do in this thread. Any religious person believes his person to be the only right religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Jew or any other. All these religions have the concept of heaven and hell and that disbelievers would be punished on Judgment Day. No sane person who believes those religious beliefs would want their kin or relatives to be subject to that punishment. However, what others practice is their own concern. A normal person would be tolerant of their beliefs and let them practice them without criticism. A bigot would constantly try to call them wicked. Or are you saying that all religions promote bigoted beliefs?

 

Sharia discriminates in a number of ways against women which provides a rational basis for the practice. Women Muslims are not allowed to marry none Muslims unlike men. This is because in Islam's eyes men rule the family and decide the familie's religion so whether or not a man marries a Muslim the children will belong to the faith.

 

So, I'm guessing this means you got an elbow replacement from an American company, because the rest of you is from the UK.

I'm Canadian? Well, I can't wait to hear how you came to this conclusion.

 

Boring elision. Now would you care to reply to the question put?

 

And the Bible doesn't?

And let's not talk about the original sin.

 

Yet Islam gives women the choice to choose their husbands. In what fantasy land does one jump from not being allowed to marry non Muslims to killing women? Jews for instance are only supposed to eat kosher meat. Does that mean Judaism allows the killing of every person who does not eat kosher meat?

 

Really, that is your response?

"Why didn't every Imam on the planet sign it?"

And then a bunch of other rhetorical questions?

I don't speak for one Imam, let alone all of them. However I agree they should speak out against these acts.

Why don't they? Well it is not completely fair to say they don't. I doubt every time an Imam speaks it is reported. In the case of these Canadian Imams, it was Imams from a large organization. Our local Imam rarely gets any attention.

Are you assuming they are quiet because they think honour killings are Islamic?

You claimed thats polls show many Muslims support honour killings. That is a poll among taken in the UK showing otherwise.


Why do you think I can read the minds of every Muslim on earth?

 

Really? Such as....

Oh, and be sure to provide the Islamic texts (specifics) which support your examples, otherwise it has no legitimacy.

You may want to stay away from such a website like, oh, http://www.islamswomen.com as it likely will educate you.

As for why women cannot marry non-Muslim men, this does a pretty good job of explaining it: http://peopleofsunnah.com/fiqh/rulings/marriage/80-interfaithmarriage

It is not really because "men rule the family and decides the families religion" however it does involve the childrens faith.

 

So you expect that every time there is an issue, it should be agreed on and signed by thousands of imams across the world?

The power to issue a fatwa has very strict requirements and today, very few if any scholars have the knowledge to issue a fatwa. In the absence of such, fatwa is issued by groups of scholars (or the supreme religious council of the land) who are the best versed in the teachings of Islam and the issue at hand. So the fatwa will always be issued by a small group of the scholars merely because the rest of them do not have the knowledge and hence the power to do so. Moreover, the fatwa is not binding. The Quran and Hadith rule supreme over it and if it is against either of them, it is invalid.

As I said, tell me a quote from the Quran where it allows honor killing and I will concede that you have a point.

 

I have no means to consult /get the opinion of every muslim , but according to those muslims , Indian/Pakistani, Arab , I've over the years spoken to, all seem to agree that's it not sanctioned in the Quran . It seem to be similar to the honour killing which was prevalent amongst rural, Italians /Spanish , not so long ago.

A few years ago while holidays in Sardinia there was two cases of "honor killings " family vendettas.

"As one example, you could read "Feuding, Conflict and Banditry in 19th/early 20ths Century Corsica "by Stephen Wilson where it it states quite clearly that sexual misconduct against a family's womenfolk would frequently lead to the murder of the perp, rsulting in a perpetual vendetta between the two families. Dishonour (vergogna) was the worst disgrace within a Corsican family and the term "honour killing" is used in this context within the book. In a few cases, to redeem a dishonour, a family would even deliver the perp to the wronged family. As the girls, by virtue of their pregnancy, were no longer marriageable, they were often sent to a convent or killed..

This notion of killing the deflowerer of a daughter or a sister as a matter of honour probably exists to this day in some remote rural areas of Europe. The term "shotgun wedding" is a slang expression to denote the forcing of a perp to redeem the family's honour by marrying the pregnant daughter, or be killed. Although their religion forbids killing, Anabaptists often achieve the same end by shunning he who dishonourably gets a girl in the family way.

Sorry, but this is a very old European tradition. I agree that if you Google "honour killing", most of the responses today will centre on Islamic cases, but this is only because it is symptomatic of the current anti-Islamic paranoia in the western world.

I'm not asking this to be provocative but out of curiosity, especially with regard to the unique notion of matrilineal descent, but what would the traditional reaction be in a Jewish family if the daughter were "unexpectedly" preggers a) by a Jew and b) by a Goy? or "white " Jeishs family if a daughter "unexpectedly" got preggers by a Black man. ?

Could that be one of the reasons why Israel have such a disproportionately/excessively high abortion rate. ?

 

Isn't it just the sort of culture promoted by the Godfather? It has existed in every culture since time immemorial. Only difference is that those European and north American nations have advanced inclduing access to good educations while Muslims countries today are mostly lacking in education and following the rules of 100 years old.

 

No education at all! Let me see, some time ago we were being told that madrassa means school and nothing other than that and everything else was a simple misunderstanding of those ignorant of the Arabic language. So what are all those hundreds of madrassas doing if they are not providing an education as schools normally do? I don’t believe education is required to understand that killing ones family members is a very bad idea. Rather I believe what is required is simply a lack of a cultural conditioning which makes people do such unnatural acts quite contrary to natural human empathy. There are plenty of other people with the same lack of education yet who would never dream of killing their loved ones. Maybe they could learn from them?

If you really want to make such an illogical comparison then it would be slightly more meaningful to compare Muslim men who approve of honour killings with pedophile Catholic priests. I think you will find you are quite mistaken about the law of the jungle and honour killings. Read up about jungle tribes. By making the comparison you do you demonstrate clearly that you don’t know the problem at all.

He specified secular, not every criminal. I won’t answer that as I wouldn’t want to encourage you sitting at home insulting and demeaning others!

You have to realise that religion doesn’t play the same role in the West as Islam does in Islamic cultures. Maybe then you will be able to see further than the false Islam/Christian dichotomy you are trapped in.

Even if I was implying there was something wrong about it, it is not the same as saying Muslims are sick. I didn’t bring it up, it was mentioned in the case and here there certainly is something wrong with it.

According to the quite extensive research done development has much to do with the emancipation of women. That being the case then this would go some way to explaining why it is not simply an accident of circumstances that Muslims tend to belong to regions which are not well developed at present. Maybe neighbouring countries within the region share that same problem, so what?

That’s not quite the case though. The males do what the religion instructs to, in making the society male dominated. Knowing the nature of males the religion should have taken into account that males otherwise would act as they do. If religion doesn’t make for a good society then it isn’t doing its job.

Well I wish to see it that way because that’s the way to see it to get it changed! Clearly you are not really interested in seeing it change and therefore choose to see it the way you do. Again, you are in a rut! Its not about Christian or Muslim criminals, Israel etc. but about societal pressures in Islamic honour cultures.

Being a good person is not something which is taught but shown by example. If you have a teacher whose teachings are ignored by almost everyone then I would blame the teacher. If the teacher claimed to perfect then I would blame them no matter what!

I would say believing that anyone not sharing your belief ends up in hell fits the bill for being intolerant of others religions. I don’t think you know enough about non Abrahamic belief systems. In the modern world I live in no sane person really believes about disbelievers being punished on Judgement day.

 

You so clearly illustrate that it is a problem in Islam by your complete lack of awareness as to how repugnant this crime is in the eyes of non Muslims. If 6% of British men thought it was acceptable to rip the clothes off any Muslim women walking the streets would you think that was many? If 30 priests made a statement that it was unchristian to do so would you clap your hands in delight at the actions of the church?

 

Actually, I think that is interesting.

I had heard that there are a lot of abortions in israel, no idea how in % terms in may compare to European nations, or the US, but I am sure the info is out there.

For one thing there, I read a LOT of pious sounding Americans, usually Neo Cons, usually lovers of Israel, RAGING about abortions, in the US.

It would appear an anamoly to me that they apparently object on religous grounds, yet lend support to a state that routinely supports mass abortion......on the holiest of lands?

How do they square that, with themselves, I wonder, unless, as usual, they are just hypocrites.

It doesn't matter what you or I think of abortion, the bottom line is that on the supposed most holy of lands, it goes on, and the state there permit it.

If abortion is a sin to the right, in the US, then by extension of support to the Israeli state, they are hypocrties, no?

Esp since it not any old state they are supporting.

But one established on, as I say, what is meant to be the holiest of lands.

Did you know that in practice, a lot of US $ pays for these abortions, in Israel, so there is that, on top.

All those that stand outside abortion clinics, in the US, while supporting the state in that region, are, hypocrites.

If it was THAT key an issue for them, then there is NO WAY they could support any israeli state that allowed abortion, in the holy land.

That would be to hold two contrary thoughts, at the same time.

Anyhoo, I think one of the reasons for it there, is down to the overwhelming number of women, who, each year, are smuggled in, it is around 5000 a year, and basically sold.

Anyone can go check this out for themselves.

They are sold to, well, obviously Jews eh?

They brought over on the pretext of a job promise, or some such.

When they arrive, they are literally sold, their passport taken away, etc.

They face terrible crimes against humanity, and once there, they cannot escape it.

Truly awful that this exists, to such an extent, in such a tiny state.

I also thought passport control and general security in Israel would be tight as a drum.

So, it seems odd to me that so many women can be smuggled in.

Anyway, dont be surprised how many of them may get pregnant, and be sent for abortion.

Lastly, I also seem to hear Jews go on about their Jewishness a lot, and take special pride in genetics, and some idea of Jewish genetic purity.

We have become so used to it, that we almost do not notice, that if white people began speaking that way, they would be classed as demented racists, who were OCD about such things, to 'prove' something or other.

When Jews talk that way, I see it as racist, in a sense, just as much as the above would be.

Jack

 

Its obviously no illusion since the same theme runs through many different Islamic cultures.

No I would not care to since doing so is would be allowing myself to be drawn into the illusion of defining Islam on the basis of religious texts which can be interpreted in almost anyway one finds agreeable to one's wishes. In reality Islam is of course defined by the practices of its community.

 

Nonsense! Islamic practice does not allow a women to choose her husband. Do you really believe that of all the men to choose between so many women in the Islamic heartland of Arabia choose a cousin and have done so pretty much since the time of Mohammed! Calling it a fantasy land is offensive to the many victims. In Islamic cultures women are treated as possessions and possessions can be disposed of as one sees fit. There are countless examples which demonstrate this along with different national laws and legal practice. The jump is really not so big.

What you claim Jews are allowed to do does not define Jewish culture, what Jews do does.

 

In 'democratic and free' israel, a Jew cannot marry a non Jew.

It is illegal.

There have been some exceptions, but not many.

It would not be a recongised marriage.

And it is not a religous thing, it is 100% OCD with bloodline, and maintaining what they see as some sort of distinct racial purity.

That is why an atheist Jew can marry a religous Jew.

 

Nonsense. You claimed a good portion of Muslims support "honour killings" and that there were polls to prove this. Well, this poll taken by British Asians seems to say otherwise.

I leave you with this: Provide the Islamic texts/sources which justify or legitimize "honour killings" and prove it is an Islamic practice.

Good luck

Not at all. 6% of British men or Asian men is an irrelevant minority.

Unchristian to do what?


Is your entire counter-argument based on asking rhetorical questions? "What if's" are quite weak. No offence.

 

No, the community is defined by the practices of the community.

Islam is defined by what is in the Quran and Sunnah.

And since you responded to my initial post asking for Islamic sources which allows for "honour killings", I would expect you be up to actually providing something. Anything.

Instead you put more effort thinking of a clever way to say "I can't" using a... Weak excuse.