Vikings In The East, The Normans

wyly · Mar 12, 2013

gabriel1 said: ↑

it ends when the deals that were made are honoured. breach of contract is a horrible sin to the establishment until its their breach!
Click to expand...

I suppose that's right, I just fear there isn't the money to honor the deal...

I hear Saskatoon is a real nice town.
Click to expand...

pretty yes, good Uni town, but the crime rate has risen dramatically since I left over a decade ago....

gabriel1 · Mar 12, 2013

wyly said: ↑

I suppose that's right, I just fear there isn't the money to honor the deal...

pretty yes, good Uni town, but the crime rate has risen dramatically since I left over a decade ago....
Click to expand...

of course theres enough money. the beneficiaries of the broken contracts have it all. and its up to the courts to pry it loose. you cant sign a contract promising certain things in return for millions of acres of prime land and then go back on the deal once you have the land.

and of course the crime rate has risen. its the price we are beginning to pay for the contract breaches of our forefathers.

Margot2 · Sep 30, 2013

Margot said: ↑

http://www.nordicway.com/search/Vikings in the East.htm

A bit of history for those who are interested......

VIKINGS IN THE EAST_Remarkable Eyewitness Accounts

More than a millennium ago, as fleets of Viking raiders were striking fear into the hearts of coast and river-dwellers throughout western Europe, other Norsemen of more mercantile inclination were making their way east. With no less boldness and stamina, bearing luxurious furs and enticing nodules of amber, they penetrated the vast steppes of what is today Ukraine, Belarus and Russia and entered Central Asia. There they met Muslim traders who paid for Norse wares with silver coins, which the Viking themselves did not mint, and which they coveted.

Their routes were various, and by the ninth and 10th centuries, a regular trade network had grown up. Some Norsemen traveled overland and by river, while others sailed over both the Black and Caspian Seas, joined caravans and rode camelback as far as Baghdad, which was then under Abbasid rule and populated by nearly a million souls. There, the Scandinavian traders found an emporium beyond their wildest dreams, for their fjord-rimmed homelands had only recently seen the emergence of a few rudimentary towns.

To the Arabs of Baghdad, the presence of the Norsemen probably didn't come as much of a surprise, for the Arabs were long accustomed to meeting people from different cultures and civilizations. They were also keen and literate observers. Abbasid historians and caliphal envoys put to paper eyewitness accounts of the roving Scandinavians, leaving a historical legacy that is shedding new light both on Viking history and on a little-known chapter of early Islamic history.
From the time of the first Viking attacks on England in the late eighth century, the 300 year epoch known as the Viking Age found the Scandinavians venturing farther afield than any other Europeans. They colonized nearly the entire North Atlantic, even establishing a shortlived settlement in North America about the turn of the millennium. It was largely Vikings Øm Norway and Denmark who made these western voyages, but waves of "Eastern Vikings," predominantly Swedes, headed southeast to establish trading centers in Kiev and Novgorod, where the elite among them became princes and rulers. It was in these lands that they were observed by several Muslim historians.

The Arab writers did call the tall, blond traders "Vikings," but by the ethnonym Rus (pronounced "Roos'). The origin of this term is obscure, and though some claim it stems from the West Finnic name for Sweden, Ruotsi, there is. little agreement. Yet consistently, Byzantine and Arab writers referred to the Swedish traders and settlers, as well as the local population among whom they settled and intermarried, as Rus, and this is the source of the modern name of Russia.

The name was applied only in the East. In France and Sicily, the Vikings were known as Normans. An elite guard of the Byzantine emperors, composed of eastern Scandinavians, was known as Varangians, but that term never came into widespread use outside the region. In al-Andalus, or Islamic Spain, they were known as al-majus, or "fire-worshippers," a pejorative reference to their paganism.

Besides the Scandinavians themselves, only the British called the marauders "Vikings," and this word may come from vik; or bay, and Viken, as the Oslo Fjord was called, from which the earliest Viking ships emerged. Other authorities maintain that the name 'came from the Old Norse term i viking, which is the equivalent of "a-raiding," as in "they went a-raiding down the Atlantic coast." But "Viking" was never a blanket term for the whole people of the region until it became a popular, modem misuse. "We can refer to Viking Age society, but not all Scandinavians were Vikings," says Jesse Byock, who is professor of Old Norse literature at the University of California at Los Angeles. "They themselves used the term to refer to raiders from the region, but it certainly didn't describe the local farmers who were back on the land."

In western Europe, journal entries about Viking raids were often penned by monks and priests whose interests lay in painting them in the darkest, most savage colors. But in the East, the story was different. There the Rus were primarily explorers, colonizers and tradesmen, and although they were well-armed, Muslim accounts describe them as merchant-warriors whose primary business was trade. The Rus were after the Abbasid-issued dirhams flooding the region, and although at times, in the more remote regions, they procured these by exacting tribute, they largely traded with Muslims who had themselves ventured north and west to find opportunities for commerce.

We would in fact know little about these Rus, these Norsemen in the East, were it not for Muslim chroniclers. Ibn Fadman, whose 10th-century Risala (Letter) is the richest account of all, kept a journal that details his encounters with the Rus along the Volga, as well as with many other peoples. A few decades later, al-Tartushi, a merchant from Cordoba, described a Danish market town, passing down to us a rare glimpse of the Norsemen in their domestic setting. Other accounts, such as al Mas'udi's Meadows of Gold, written in 943, and al Mukaddasi's The Best Organization of Knowledge of the Regions, composed after 985, were briefer in their mentions of the Rus, but collectively they were all trailblazers in what was then the flourishing field of Islamic geography, a response to the thirst for knowledge about the vast Islamic Empire and the regions beyond it.

Unlike Europeans, Arab chroniclers bore no grudge against the Rus, and thus the Arab reports are more detached and, in the eyes of many scholars today, more credible. Most experts acknowledge that the Vikings were, in general, victims of a medieval "bad press," for the military excursions of Charlemagne and other Europeans of the times were no less ruthless than theirs. Yet the Norsemen had only a runic alphabet, suited for no more than inscribing grave-stones and place-markers, and were hardly in a position to set the record straight themselves. Their oral sagas of heroes and gods would not be written down until the 12th century.

Many of the Muslim accounts have been translated into European languages over the past two centuries, and they are proving valuable in interpreting archeological evidence that continues to emerge. Hundreds of Viking Age graves and buried hoards, it turns out, contain caches of still-gleaming Arab dirhams, "the coin that helped fuel the Viking Age," according to Thomas S. Noonan of the University of Minnesota. Noonan is one of the world's leading experts on medieval Scandinavian ties with the Muslim world, and a specialist in Viking numismatic history.

It was largely the dirham that had lured the Scandinavians eastward in the first place, says Noonan. Silver had become their favored medium of exchange, but, with no indigenous sources of the precious metal in the northern forests, they went in pursuit of it far and wide. Arab merchants had started circulating silver coins in the Volga region in the late eighth century, and Scandinavian traders, intent on finding the source of the lucre, set a course across the Baltic in their shallow-draft longboats.

In Russia, they braved the uncharted river systems, portaging of one tributary to another, shooting rapids and fending off hostile nomads until they reached the first eastern trade centers, those of the Turkic Khazars. The Khazars had become the dominant power in the Caucasian steppe by the middle of the seventh century, and they played a major role in trade between the region and the Islamic world for the next 300 years. Here, in the network of trading stations along the mighty rivers, the Swedes would have carried on active commerce with Arabs, Persians and Greeks.

continued.
Click to expand...

.............................

Margot2 · Oct 17, 2013

FYI..........................

Margot2 · Nov 5, 2013

FYI.......................

Margot2 · Feb 1, 2015

Margot said: ↑

From there, some of the Scandinavians sailed down to the Black Sea, toward the regions they called "Sarkland," a name which may refer either to the lands of the Saracens (today Azerbaijan and northem Iran); to the Khazar fortress of Sarkel, at the mouth of the Don on the Black Sea coast; or to serk, the Norse word for silk, which was widely traded in the region at the time.

The earliest reference by Muslim writers to the roving Norsemen was made at the beginning of the ninth century by Ibn Khurradadhbih, a Khurasani bon-vivant who headed Caliph al-Mu'tamid's postal and intelligence gathering service. In 844 he wrote about the travels of the sagalibaha -- term generally used for fair-haired, ruddy-complexioned Europeans. They came in their boats, he wrote, "bringing beaver skins, and skins of black foxes, and swords, from the furthest part of the Slav lands down to the Black Sea." Rus traders, he wrote, transported their wares by camel from Jurjan, a town at the southeastern end of the Caspian Sea, to Baghdad, where sagalibah servants, who had learned Arabic, acted as interpreters.

Baghdad, then a circular city about 19 kilometers (12 mi) in diameter, was lavishly embellished with parks, marble palaces, gardens, promenades and finely built mosques. The Arabian Gulf trader, geographer and encyclopedist Yakut al-Rumi describes how both sides of the river were fronted by the palaces, kiosks, gardens and parks of the nobles, with marble steps leading down to the water's edge, where thousands of gondolas festooned with little flags sailed by.

This was a far cry from the rudimentary settlements occupied by the Rus. Astronomer and geographer Ibn Rustah, writing between 903 and 913, noted that "they have no villages, no cultivated fields." Ibn Rustah described the Rus as sporting excellent swords, and wearing baggy trousers that were tight below the knee -- a style which reflected the Eastern influence in their wardrobes. They were, in his estimation, heroic men who displayed great loyalty to each other. But their primary interest in the region was acquisitive. 'I'heir only occupation is trading in sable and squirrel and other kinds of skins, which they sell to those who will buy from them," he observed. "In payment, they take coins which they keep in their belts."

The Vikings paid little attention to the face value of the coins; rather, they used an Arab system of weights to measure the silver on portable balance scales. When it suited them, the coins were hewn into smaller pieces, melted down into ingots or fashioned into arm-rings for subsequent "hacksilver" transactions. The amount of Islamic silver reaching the region increased dramatically in the 10th century, when vast silver deposits were discovered in the Hindu Kush. This enabled the Khurasanbased Samanid dynasty to mint large numbers of coins and to become, numismatic evidence shows, the main supplier of dirhams.

The Arabs, for their part, were eager to have caps and coats made of black fox, the most valued of all the furs, according to alMas'udi. And al-Mukaddasi noted that from the Rus one could obtain furs of sable, Siberian squirrel, ermine, marten, weasel, mink, fox and colored hare.

Other wares traded by the Rus, as inventoried by several Muslim observers, included wax and birch bark, fish teeth, honey, goat skins and horse hides, falcons, acorns, hazelnuts, cattle, swords and armor.

Amber, the reddish gold fossilized tree resin found along the Baltic shoreline, was highly prized in the East and became a mainstay of Scandinavian trade.

Also valued in the East were the slaves that the Rus captured from among the Eastern European peoples - Slavs, from which English has derived the word slave. According to the itinerant geographer Ibn Hawkal, writing in 977, the Rus ran a slave trade that flourished "from Spain to Egypt."

But the most important eyewitness account of the Rus is that of Ahmed ibn Fadlan, a writer about whom little is known, but whose Risala has been translated into several languages.

\CONTINUED http://www.nordicway.com/search/Vikings in the East.htm
Click to expand...

Interesting read......................

Margot2 · Feb 15, 2015

Vikings LOVED Arab gold and the Arabs loved Viking furs.. Muslims also served as navigators.

Aleksander Ulyanov · Feb 16, 2015

Could anyone explain to me why the Vikings in Newfoundland did not start the great plagues that are credited to Columbus? I am not disputing the Vikings were there, archaeology seems clear that they were, but that being the case why didn't they leave their diseases? Columbus' diseases. were so devastating that most historians now credit the horrific smallpox plague that had decimated the Inca just before Pizarro's arrival with largely facilitating his victory over them, yet Columbus had landed only a few people less than 20 years before and some thousands of miles away.

Why didn't the early colonists find a resistant grouping of American natives with a legend of a great plague 500 years before? instead of the people they did, who had apparently never faced European plagues at any time

Aleksander Ulyanov · Feb 17, 2015

Aleksander Ulyanov said: ↑

Could anyone explain to me why the Vikings in Newfoundland did not start the great plagues that are credited to Columbus? I am not disputing the Vikings were there, archaeology seems clear that they were, but that being the case why didn't they leave their diseases? Columbus' diseases. were so devastating that most historians now credit the horrific smallpox plague that had decimated the Inca just before Pizarro's arrival with largely facilitating his victory over them, yet Columbus had landed only a few people less than 20 years before and some thousands of miles away.

Why didn't the early colonists find a resistant grouping of American natives with a legend of a great plague 500 years before? instead of the people they did, who had apparently never faced European plagues at any time
Click to expand...

Nobody knows ?

Don't be afraid of embarrassing me if it seems blindingly obvious. I am beyond shame or wouldn't be on this board in the first place.

DarkDaimon · Feb 17, 2015

Aleksander Ulyanov said: ↑

Could anyone explain to me why the Vikings in Newfoundland did not start the great plagues that are credited to Columbus? I am not disputing the Vikings were there, archaeology seems clear that they were, but that being the case why didn't they leave their diseases? Columbus' diseases. were so devastating that most historians now credit the horrific smallpox plague that had decimated the Inca just before Pizarro's arrival with largely facilitating his victory over them, yet Columbus had landed only a few people less than 20 years before and some thousands of miles away.

Why didn't the early colonists find a resistant grouping of American natives with a legend of a great plague 500 years before? instead of the people they did, who had apparently never faced European plagues at any time
Click to expand...

I'm not sure, but if I was to hazard a guess, the Vikings were just healthier. The Vikings that came to America were from Greenland and Iceland and were fairly isolated. Columbus' men on the other hand were living at a time where international trade was common place and disease was rampant. Also, except for some skirmishes, the Vikings didn't interact much with the natives while Columbus and his men set up trade, captured slaves and started colonies.

upside-down cake · Mar 15, 2015

Margot2 said: ↑

Interesting read......................
Click to expand...

It definitely was. It really does make you rethink the medieval world, that the Vikings and the Arab's were known to each other and were trade partners. I tended to think of the past civilizations as geographically anchored groups in continuous cultural zones, but the travel, trade, and communication between them spanned across the entire continents of Asia and Europe.

Sad though, that the Arab contribution to history is so understated. I always found it odd how they could go on and on about Greece when Persia was an older, larger, far more impressive civilization right next to them.

Albert Di Salvo · Mar 17, 2015

Aleksander Ulyanov said: ↑

Could anyone explain to me why the Vikings in Newfoundland did not start the great plagues that are credited to Columbus? I am not disputing the Vikings were there, archaeology seems clear that they were, but that being the case why didn't they leave their diseases? Columbus' diseases. were so devastating that most historians now credit the horrific smallpox plague that had decimated the Inca just before Pizarro's arrival with largely facilitating his victory over them, yet Columbus had landed only a few people less than 20 years before and some thousands of miles away.

Why didn't the early colonists find a resistant grouping of American natives with a legend of a great plague 500 years before? instead of the people they did, who had apparently never faced European plagues at any time
Click to expand...

Interesting question. In responding I'm going to speculate. The Vikings did not seek contact with the natives they called Skraelings. They avoided them. The Iberians, on the other hand, sought intimate contact with the aboriginal peoples of the lands they conquered. Intimate contact facilitates incubation and communication of diseases.

Anders Hoveland · Mar 17, 2015

upside-down cake said: ↑

I always found it odd how they could go on and on about Greece when Persia was an older, larger, far more impressive civilization right next to them.
Click to expand...

In antiquity Greek civilization was the original portal of culture into Europe and the Western world, just as Chinese civilization was the portal of culture into Korea and Japan. Actually Greek civilization goes back before the unification of Persia.

upside-down cake · Mar 17, 2015

Anders Hoveland said: ↑

In antiquity Greek civilization was the original portal of culture into Europe and the Western world, just as Chinese civilization was the portal of culture into Korea and Japan. Actually Greek civilization goes back before the unification of Persia.
Click to expand...

I doubt Greek culture goes back farther than Perisa considering Persia is a mature empire at this time, and it's location was the site of older empires and older cultures. Perhaps it Greek culture is the one we are more familiar with and so we see it as older, nobler, and such.

And to add, there are also the more eastern civilizations that have existed at this time- like the civilizations of the Indian sub-continent...or, as you say, China. Far more impressive. But little known because we focus on the Greeks, the Romans, and then the various European super-states and empires. Rome certainly was a civilization that could hold weight against anyone, but Greece...I don't see it so.

Anders Hoveland · Mar 18, 2015

upside-down cake said: ↑

And to add, there are also the more eastern civilizations that have existed at this time- like the civilizations of the Indian sub-continent...or, as you say, China. Far more impressive.
Click to expand...

The "civilization" in China and India existed mostly amongst the upper class. The masses of people, just like they are today, are pretty uncivilized.

upside-down cake · Mar 18, 2015

Anders Hoveland said: ↑

The "civilization" in China and India existed mostly amongst the upper class. The masses of people, just like they are today, are pretty uncivilized.
Click to expand...

That is pretty much the same...everywhere.

Anders Hoveland · Mar 18, 2015

upside-down cake said: ↑

That is pretty much the same...everywhere.
Click to expand...

Maybe that explains why countries such as Switzerland and Sweden never really had a cultural "Renaissance", because there was never really much of an aristocracy.

upside-down cake · Mar 18, 2015

Anders Hoveland said: ↑

Maybe that explains why countries such as Switzerland and Sweden never really had a cultural "Renaissance", because there was never really much of an aristocracy.
Click to expand...

Well...I think they did have an aristocracy or a cultural hierarchy. It may be that their version of aristocracy was not the same was the rest of western Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nobility#Medieval_nobility:_Fr.C3.A4lse

This is just me googling the subject for a second so I really can't put it into context so I guess you may be right. I know Vikings didn't have as strong a division of classes among them, but it existed and that's probably the most I know about the situation.

Margot2 · Mar 18, 2015

upside-down cake said: ↑

It definitely was. It really does make you rethink the medieval world, that the Vikings and the Arab's were known to each other and were trade partners. I tended to think of the past civilizations as geographically anchored groups in continuous cultural zones, but the travel, trade, and communication between them spanned across the entire continents of Asia and Europe.

Sad though, that the Arab contribution to history is so understated. I always found it odd how they could go on and on about Greece when Persia was an older, larger, far more impressive civilization right next to them.
Click to expand...

No question that Persia contributed so much and had a long, rich heritage.

Anders Hoveland · Mar 18, 2015

Margot2 said: ↑

No question that Persia contributed so much and had a long, rich heritage.
Click to expand...

Well yes, I agree that the history is Persia has been greatly underrated in the West, but at the same time, to try to compare Greek civilization to Persian civilization and say the Persians were far more ancient and advanced, I really do not think that is true either.

One of the elements of Persian culture that often gets lost on scholars is the far reaching influence of Zoroastrianism, even though that religion has almost disappeared today.
The Romans were never able to advance as far as Persia, or rather Persia was just a little too far beyond their reach, and they were more preoccupied with Western Europe.

Greataxe · Mar 19, 2015

upside-down cake said: ↑

It definitely was. It really does make you rethink the medieval world, that the Vikings and the Arab's were known to each other and were trade partners. I tended to think of the past civilizations as geographically anchored groups in continuous cultural zones, but the travel, trade, and communication between them spanned across the entire continents of Asia and Europe.

Sad though, that the Arab contribution to history is so understated. I always found it odd how they could go on and on about Greece when Persia was an older, larger, far more impressive civilization right next to them.
Click to expand...

The Arab world stopped contributing worthwhile things once Islam began. I think the ancient Persians did help with some math, stargazing and the alphabet---but for the last 1000+ years----there has been nothing significant to make the world a better place coming out of there.

I don't include: terrorism, suicide bombings, illiteracy, slavery, wife beating, and especially, the Koran.

Margot2 · Mar 19, 2015

Greataxe said: ↑

The Arab world stopped contributing worthwhile things once Islam began. I think the ancient Persians did help with some math, stargazing and the alphabet---but for the last 1000+ years----there has been nothing significant to make the world a better place coming out of there.

I don't include: terrorism, suicide bombings, illiteracy, slavery, wife beating, and especially, the Koran.
Click to expand...

You have overlooked Muslim Spain..........

And, the Kemal......... Oh well.

Hoosier8 · Mar 19, 2015

lizarddust said: ↑

Actually,, the Vikings didn't wear horned helmets, the Saxons did.
Click to expand...

Pictures or it didn't happen.

- - - Updated - - -

Greataxe said: ↑

The Arab world stopped contributing worthwhile things once Islam began. I think the ancient Persians did help with some math, stargazing and the alphabet---but for the last 1000+ years----there has been nothing significant to make the world a better place coming out of there.

I don't include: terrorism, suicide bombings, illiteracy, slavery, wife beating, and especially, the Koran.
Click to expand...

Actually, the contributions attributed to Muslims came from the conquered land inhabitants under Islamic rule.

Greataxe · Mar 19, 2015

Margot2 said: ↑

You have overlooked Muslim Spain..........

And, the Kemal......... Oh well.
Click to expand...

That --- all?

I was hoping for something like: the steam engine....the printing press....the light bulb....air conditioning.....modern medicines (any).....democracy.

Oh well.

Anders Hoveland · Mar 20, 2015

Most of the contributions from other parts of the world have been botanical. Take away all those exotic and useful plants and creatures, and there is really not much left of any real tangible value.

Log in or Sign up

Vikings In The East, The Normans

wyly Well-Known Member

gabriel1 New Member

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Albert Di Salvo New Member

Anders Hoveland Banned

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Anders Hoveland Banned

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Anders Hoveland Banned

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Margot2 Banned

Anders Hoveland Banned

Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

Margot2 Banned

Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

Anders Hoveland Banned

Share This Page

Log in or Sign up

Vikings In The East, The Normans

wyly Well-Known Member

gabriel1 New Member

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Margot2 Banned

Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

DarkDaimon Well-Known Member

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Albert Di Salvo New Member

Anders Hoveland Banned

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Anders Hoveland Banned

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Anders Hoveland Banned

upside-down cake Well-Known Member

Margot2 Banned

Anders Hoveland Banned

Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

Margot2 Banned

Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

Anders Hoveland Banned

Share This Page

Useful Searches