Why follow God and what makes it moral?

Note:
By God I refer to every and any God, but I would like the focus to be on Abrahamic faiths as they are the most dominant and thus most relevant in society.

Assuming God is real, and assuming then that he made everything, is lord of all etc, why should we do what he says we should and why should consider to what he says is moral to be so? There is seriously no basis that I can find within ANY religion to do what is ordained nor do I find any objective reason as to consider what they say is moral and immoral to be such.

Thus I have two questions;

Why, based on rational objective reasoning, should anyone do what God (as dictated by texts, prophets and religious folk) tell them to?

and

What makes God's code of ethics (as dictated by texts, prophets and religious folk) correct?

For the first question you may say, well if you don't do what God says you'll burn in the next life. But then what is proposed is merely that we are enslaved - forced to act in a certain way under the threat of future harm. This is not rational, merely the description of a prism of tyranny as our existence. If this is the true case of the matter, realistically there is still no reason to act - I can just disobey God because I consider myself doomed to be his subject no matter what - I can only be free by rebelling, and then I am damed.
This eventually leads to the next question - why should I be damed and why are God's demands acceptable or reasonable?

Acts cannot be good just because God says they are. They must be good independent of God's existence; there must be intrinsic value in the acts prescribed. If one argues they are good because God says so, then what they are actually saying is that nothing is good and nothing is bad, there is only what God says, which really is a state of moral relativism, something I cannot accept.

Can anyone offer a reasonable answer to these two questions?


PS. I realize I have been dubbed a reputation for a hotheaded style of debate on the religion section but I think it is safe for me to say that the last three months have seen me change my demeanor and so I a healthy landscape of discourse can develop here unlike the usual on the religion forum.

 

he said 'nothing'.

because each of the six commands (mark 10:19) can be understood by any conscious mind, equally.

first off, god didnt write them a human being did.

but of each, them rules are what anyone of us could expect from anyone else.

They enable the concept of 'do unto others as you would have other do unto you'........ fit but in a reverse fashion. ie.... YOU be responsible NOT to do what them commands suggest.


kind of like or purely just like the egyptian style; "i have not taken from the mouth of a baby" ...."i have not stolen'

"i have not lied"

killed

etc.....

they are a reverse methodology.


but i have come up with another set:

actions which a conscious life can 'cause' to exist; Good: support life to continue

bad; loss to the common

the reality: good lives and bad fades to extinction (so in one full scope; life or death based on what you do)

so note: to teach these in the scope that each of US are capable of causation (causing a wave upon existence) then each of use can measure what we do before doing it.


all based on 'reality'


ie.... are you capable? YES, you are!

 

I can only share what I have learned with my experience.

I don't ask myself "Why" should I follow God. When that day back in 1970 sitting in an unweds mothers home, age 14, abortion was illegal, Jiyuu was pregnant by rape.

My mother had turned her back on me (Japanese pride) and my father was deceased. I had no one to turn to hence my mother put me in the court system.

I began to wonder if there was any truth in what I had learned as a child about God/Jesus (the Trinity) because I was confused and scared. The only option I had was giving the baby up for adoption. I agreed to up until the 2nd day after giving birth.

I had gotten down on my knees and asked God to please guide me with my decision on whether I should tough it out with a baby or give him up to the Catholic adoption agency. I also asked Him to forgive me for my sins and to make Himself real in my heart. In a moments notice, I felt all that worry, fear and unrest leave me. There seemed to be a new voice living in my body which I won't try to explain right now.

We know if we ask anything in His Name and believe in our hearts that it will be done by our Father in heaven, he will answer our prayers. The part that I didn't understand is sometimes the answers come slowly, sometimes instantly. I knew the Bible asked me to "trust Him in all my ways".

It became clear to me that part of being a believer is that we don't always want to listen. Not everything is easy that He asks of us. He loves someone who is after His heart and that concept took me many years to understand. It became easier the more I worshipped Him and thanked Him everyday for giving me what I needed and opened doors to things I never thought possible.

I was a "Ward of the State" from age 14 to 17 when I asked to see a judge and was emancipated at 17. I asked God to help me with this and it happened. I was free to leave foster care with my son. I was in a bad situation so I was blessed to get out of that situation and move on with my life.

Another quick story. I shared my story and faith with my brother and mother. My mother decided I had lost my mind and had me voluntarily go to a mental institution for evaluation. I had been fasting and praying and asking God what I was to do with my life at that point. I had a vision which at the time made very little sense but it pertained to the last days.

I went to this old institution and wasn't about to lie about my vision. Not only had I just did a 72 hour sit, I saw a psychiatrist that was nuttier than a fruitcake. He evaluated me as being psychotic and the judge sentenced me to another 14 days of observation. I was disappointed because I felt being honest was the right thing to do. I prayed to God and asked Him to have me released because I had my child with my mother and wasn't comfortable with that and I wanted to get back to work. Upon the 9th day, I walked through the locked doors somehow and ended up at the doctor's door. He was sitting there and looked up at me not even realizing that I should not of been there without a staff escort of a court order. He asked me what he could do for me. I explained that I am a normal individual with a child who needed me and I was about to loose my job. He had me gather my things and my girlfriend picked me up and took me to my son. Now tell me how a Supreme Court's decision could have been overturned without being seen again? It was the first miracle that I had experienced. From that day forward I knew not to question God if I was to have the desires of my heart.

God asks us to follow him. It isn't something to dread. When you begin to know him, it becomes natural to want to obey Him. It takes discipline and I have failed him too many times to count. I know when I am in line with Him, I have peace within me. There have been too many instances to go into where He has proven to me and I have seen it in other's lives that being obedient is something we strive for and life is much more joyful even in tragic situations. You also know that when you love God, you are different and want to do things you may not have wanted to do beforehand. I found myself doing many things in the name of God to help others and to do what is moral pertaining to my walk with Him. It isn't anything a person can change within themselves, especially as an adult. All that self desire and lust and cares of the world just isn't attractive anymore. You begin to look at things in the spiritual world and know the difference between Gods definition of good and evil. You know that evil comes in many ways and none of it is really what God intented the world to be apart of. Yes, I believe God is the creator of everything, including evil. He is not an evil God as some point out from his actions. The way I see it is if we were created in His image, we have similiar characteristics as God. He is perfect because He knows the beginning and the end. He is merciful and patient and He wishes none to perish. We know not Gods thought. His thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are His ways our ways. That is why I wonder sometimes why He said His plan was perfect but he had to perfect it. We are not perfect but we strive towards perfection.

 

So you are essentially arguing for the golden-rule approach. This is ok, but it in no justifies any reason as to why most of God's orders should be carried out. Sure, dont steal, dont kill, each to his own religion for the sake of each other etc are justified by the Golden rule, but not 'be celibate until married', pray, and other general orders of living religiously.

 

Are you saying God did it? If so, why? Simply because you cant explain it? I truly do value and appreciate your sincerity, but still the questions remain.

But dont you think it is contradictory to attribute all the good and lucky stuff to happen to you in your life to God and all the bad and unlucky stuff not to God?

Again, I thank you for your candid and personal response, but for someone whose prayers are not answered, whose life is awfully, or the person who is generally fine, why should they believe in God if they do not have the experience you have had? Do you see my predicaments?

 

cool post in many respects.


ie... you made the 'good' choice (supporting your child (life) to continue)

you came to a realization that the child was more important than 'the norm' the parent, the world and in fact the life is YOU, living into the next generation.

You were humbled and even submitted yourself to the possibility of needing help (self imposed evaluation ), then came to the logical reality, that YOU and YOUR child needed your input (to work) to survive............


the doors opened...............

had nothing to do with magic, with god(s), with prayer, with anything but YOU.

you made a choice, it was good and you are in motion, for the life of you, your child and believe it or not, your whole lineage

do not hate the idiot who raped you. You cannot forget but remember and look into the childs eyes in thanks for being your next generation in which you can convey your lessons too.


god didnt make it happen, you did and simply be happy with fate.

I see it as, good comes to those that give to live. Even when some of them 'good' dont get what they deserve per se there is a lesson to be found in every loss.

seek the lessons in every action/event.

learn and share what you have learned, but DO NOT LIE that some god fixes everything as then no matter what, you will set yourself up to failures of preconceptions

 

i aint arguing for or against.

i pointed out the applicability within the reasoning of how each are capable and can be aware of it, personally. kind of like knowing YOU ARE CAPABLE versus applying the idea that someone else is responsible.

ie.... see the JF post, she believes someone else did it (a god) when to read the thread, she made quality choices and good luck just so happen to combine with HER choices.

kind of like waves on a pond; you can cause it and they can combine with other waves and rise together. (or even be cancelled out)

god dont order anything, so therein.... that ideology of 'orders' is moot

it makes it so each can apply themselves in awareness (remain conscious of capability/responsibility)

you now have pointed out what makes 'religion' so stupid. Each belief "SYSTEM" incorporates their own cultural requisites.

Kind of like, judaism sustains egyptian commands, although simplified but then added tailmudd (voted in meanings), then to christianity then to islam.... the evolution of the same 'commands' into belief systems.


god dont tell people not to have sex and procreate.

nature practically requires it to live (into the next generation; in the flesh)

sure i can live, like darwin and give unto existence (with knowledge) and them waves (actions) combine and i live, (ie... darwin WON)

but to convey my life (mass/energy (light)) to continue, procreation is required.......................

these are pure truths not hypotheticals.

the hypothetical is to suggest 'well god said so'

The best method of destroying the concept that 'god said so' is to identify the fact that not only did mankind create and write every word, but that mankind penned every law (commands) in one fashion or another

god didnt do it

mankind did

and mankind is whom the rules apply too as we are the life of 'consciousness' (aware of itself)

 

I seee. Ok, I get you, and yes I totally agree.

Yes, exactly.

Couldnt agree more.

 

Not so fast here... What other "general orders of living?"

Also,What is wrong with prayer to a God that is real ?

 

Any and everything else: church, abstaining from foods, acts, etc, condemning certain acts, beliefs and people etc.

Dont know, dont care. That's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in what makes religious folk think their act (in this case, prayer) is good or should be done? Why should they even care, let alone worship God?

 

I often wonder why these type of therads even exist. The premise is pretty simple:

#1 - All you Christians are wrong. (Who cares about an honest debate or exploration).

#2 - So, why don't you explain to us why you do things and we'll come up with any excuse at all to tell you that you are wrong and call you and idiot.

Because you see, I am a modern atheist, and I exist to simply crap on you.

I mean, it would be nice to have these so called experts on our faith actually begin with at least a base knowledge of our faith, but when we have dolts who think Jesus doesn't believe in God - or consider themselves agnostic Christians (even MORE illogical than agnostic atheism) ... well, we should treat their diatribes as legit?

Instead of once again debating the merits of God, why don't we take a stab at the constant flame baiting of a few atheists? Why ask someone about their faith, if all you are going to do is be a dick to them about their faith?

The problem there is not the other persons faith is it?

 

Because I have a question obviously. Did you read the OP?

I'm reporting you for being TOTALLY irrelevant and ENTIRELY inflammatory. If you have nothing to say that would contribute, then dont say anything.

 

Church is specific to the Christian faith and a desired fellowship for like-minded people. It is also for those that want to learn about Jesus and the Bible.

Abstaining from food as a ritual is not a part of the Christian faith so a Muslim would have to answer that one for you.

It's meditative. It is also a reminder of our cares for other people and ourselves.

 

Megadethfan, I got bumped off so I could not edit my last reply to include "Condemning certain acts."

Christianity isn't about the Christian condemning but rather forgiving.

The law is what condemns.

 

There is something known as an Ad Hoc argument, and trust me when I tell you the religious are the absolute best at it.

 

Oh, because you say so? Excellent!

MDF is a well know adherent to this tactic. He is indeed a self described agnostic Christian and has spent weeks lecturing Christians froma position of sheer bafoonery stating that Jesus's teaching are best understood by removing God from them entirely - the truth of Jesus no doubt - and then running to the mods with his super victim cape firmly attached because someone, lots of people actually, correctly point out that his opinions are not Christian in the slightest.

In the meantime, he also has a well known record for just this type of behavior. Asking questions about someone else's faith, and then finding any excuse imagieable to reject the clarification (including the above above fallacious appeal to expertise), and then just flames people.

Oh, but without knowing any of the facts, you can assure me that its actially the religious people doing it and that all of our conclusions are shaped by nonsense are you? Like I said, modern atheism is an emotional creature.

Let unaddressed in your assurances of fault in others?

#1 - why ask questions whenyou already think you know the answer? Why not just offer up YOUR opinion for debate?

#2 - why ask a question is the only reason for doing it is to reject the answer and flame the person actually attempting to engage in a discussion? That's pretty much just trolling right?

Oh well, anything flies for atheism I guess

 

How does a so called expert on the Christian faith have a 'question' about our faith?

Let me get this straight, YOU are allowed to repeatedly ask leading questions about someone else's faith - and then repeatedly flame people when they answer, but, after the upteeth time doing this - no one is allowed to question YOUR motives? The motives behind your questions?

Are ANY of the thread you start any different? How many times do you have to do it before people are allowed to ask you whether your intent is just to flame people again? Just to bait and report people again? As you ... report them.

Best get the mods involved right now! Someone questioned an atheist!!!!!

 

It's not up to Atheists to support the position of Theism. Also when your only argument is that Atheism is emotional, why don't we take a look at how you base your conclusion that theism is correct and falsifiable.

The foundation of Theism is based on Faith, faith in something that isn't observable, and that association with this object based on faith is purely emotional and not rational. To ask a theist to found their belief in ration invites them to argue that they simply know it in their heart.

Atheism for many is they tried to find a rational argument for a Theist viewpoint and have found it unsupportable.

It is not Falsifiable, if it isn't falsifiable it isn't justifiable.

I'm willing to debate this with you if you can submit a ration based falsifiable argument for Theism. If it is not rational I will give you a rational reason for it not being rational.
Or you can continue your circle of personal assault on all Atheists with no base.

 

"If it isn't falsifiable it isn't justifiable" ?

Who says? And 'justifiable' to who?

Quantrill

 

Neither is atheism. Yet you have a problem with falsifiability?

Obviously, being too lazy to look or acknowledge what the world already know, that science cannot support or eliminate God for you. So, best to think that your extraneous reasons are better than anyone elses?

Best to be a jerk about your unsupportable and unfalsifiable positions?

You have faith to slick, and unless you can prove that there is not God, the fact that you are utterly certain is nothing but faith.

 

You say a lot of good things here. There are a lot of equivalences between atheism and theism, but there are some real differences too.

The assumption of the truth of theism disallows the possibility of searching for truth and meaning. At least with atheism there exists the possibility of the attempt to search and understand.

Further, I don't understand the motivation for trying to equate atheism and theism. If theism and atheism are equally unsupportable, then it behooves the circumspect person to be doubtful of both. In other words if the case for atheism is weak, the case for theism is just as week. It seems awfully strange to support a side with an argument that weakens that side.

 

As to the OP. The problem of fiat morality is a real problem with respect to the God-question. I've never theistic argument that comes close to resolving the problem.

 

If you are convinced that your atheism is correct and reject all others, indeed spend all your time telling oters how they are wrong, how exactly are you searching for truth and meaning?

How many times have I said these two things?

Science leads straight to aganosticism, not atheism.

There are reasons beyond 'science' that drive the final leap of faith, many of which are deeply personal and will not be shared with those who seek to mock and deride?

Now, would you care to explain to me the 'truth' of telling others how screwed up they are because you have .... not found a God?

 

Yep, the wisdom of the Bible is undone

 

You have yet to answer my question. Say you are a Christian then, why should you go to church? Why even be a Christian? This is my problem - what is the reason why someone should be Christian, or Muslim or whatever and do that stuff?

So you dont actually have to do it. And yet the Bible says honor the Sabbath - so is God a hypocrite or have you just rejected the Bible?