Why I'm done convincing diehard Trump Supporters

Seems to me all this defeatist talk is from people who are glad there are increasing numbers of illegal aliens

It must be a good idea if my enemies oppose it.

 

Do they also pay for the welfare of the native born whose jobs they take?

 

Really? You have a drone that can see 40 feet underground? Have you considered contacting Captain Kirk with this information?

Almost half of all illegals COME HERE LEGALLY. Your wall is worthless.
The vast majority of drugs are imported via ship. Your wall is worthless.


You wall fails because the concept is flawed.

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man."

 

In paying taxes for benefits they never receive, yes.

 

There have been multiple threads debunking the myth that illegal immigrants do not receive benefits. They also receive child tax credits meaning they actually get a check from the government larger than their original tax liability. Also, "sensible" immigration reform sought by progressives would make them legally eligible for SS.

 

My state did legalize pot. WA hasn't had any significant issues with that. I hope it reduces funds for criminals, but I've seen no data on that.

I'm not opposed to border improvements. Obama focused more on the border. He didn't get whacked by Dems over that.

So far, I'm in favor of e-verify. The crash of 2008 demonstrated that drying up jobs stopped the growth of the undocumented population in America.

But, I'm totally against the idea of attempting to driver out 12M people from America. We have statutes of limitation on every crime except some forms of murder - and being here without documentation isn't even a crime. Those who have been here and have kept their nose clean for 5 or more years are part of us now.

Most problems would be solved by allowing all those here to work to support themselves and to compete on an even basis rather than having an underground market for cheap labor.

Also, this would allow full cooperation with policing, etc.

 

Hey - if you have a justification based on numbers and facts, go for it.

I'm just saying that so far, there isn't a justification.

But, yes, I can point to serious holes in the idea that a wall will make a difference.

 

What would be the affect on social services?

 

I know you are trying to be liberal, but do you realize that you are walking down the conservative path with this post?

Conservatives DO NOT object to LEGAL, VETTED immigration. We object to letting anybody just wander in. If you listen to just the main stream media, you are getting a biased, self-serving version of reality. Trump's travel ban DOES NOT stop travel from the countries specified nor does it ban Muslims. It INCREASES THE VETTING from a limited number of countries that are KNOWN TO EXPORT TERRORISM.

Your suggestion for vetting and an examination of those already here is rather Limbaughish. Don't tell your liberal friends.

 

I'm assuming you mean the affect of allowing people to work in order to pay their own way.

And, I'd propose that America was founded on that.

What's bad is what happens when people are prevented from working.

I'd far rather have American kids growing up in families where working is not just legal but is an expected part of human existence and a route to satisfying lives.

 

I have satellites that can detect the hole and a pile of dirt for a tunnel 40' underground.

It is not worthless for the 1/2 that come here illegally.

 

The East Germans put up a wall to prevent their residents from moving to the West. During one study period, less than 5% of those who attempted to cross the border illegally succeeded. And not many tried at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border

 

In current state, immigrants utilize subsidies at a higher rate than average citizens or at least, their children do. I would agree that some of this will go away by moving their income above the table, but can the system sustain an abrupt increase of 10 million recipients?

 

I'll take CNN over some random threads as a source.

And sensible immigration reform will also raise their wages meaning they'll pay even more in taxes. So...

 

According to the Dept. of Justice, most drug seizures are via land routes:

Most foreign-produced illicit drugs available in the United States are smuggled into the country overland across the borders with Mexico and, to a much lesser extent, Canada (see Table 1). Overland smuggling methods are relatively consistent (see text box); however, DTOs often shift routes in response to law enforcement pressure, intercartel conflicts or other external factors. Such shifts were observed in 2008 and 2009.

https://www.justice.gov/archive/ndic/pubs38/38661/movement.htm

 

Could you see this one?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/27/politics/border-series-california/

It was dug in a warehouse. Got Superman X-Ray vision in those sats?

Tunnel...Tunnel...Tunnel...Oh, and ladder.

 

Sure. We found it, right? According to the article we find them all the time.

 

Your source is old but I do stand corrected.

 

Because they dig the tunnels all the time. And neither wall, nor drone nor even superman x-ray vision will stop them.

 

I haven't seen numbers on exactly what is projected, especially considering the process that would probably spread the influx over time. I've seen some "white pride" type web sites that try to do this, but their assumptions and numbers don't satisfy me, as they focus on one side of the ledger. For example, they don't consider the jobs that would come from allowing these people to become employers, the affect of paying them fair wages for the work they do, etc.

If more money is infused, I would point out that it is going to people who MUST spend their full income. Thus the aid is essentially an economic stimulus. One could expect an increased demand for better housing, more products and services, etc.

 

Of course it won't stop them from digging. But it will slow them down considerably.

 

Nah, they'll just remit more money to Mexico.

 

Why? Is it harder to build a tunnel in Tecate than it is in Nogales? More customers = more money = more tunnels.

 

Give it up. You can't convince crypto fascist airhead zombies of anything. Not really. They hate reality, we know that.

 

Yes. I went through Checkpoint Charley about 40 years ago on a tour bus with an eastern side guide dressed in a totally red dress (lol!)

She pitched the wall as protection against western invasion.

On a serious note, I suspect an East Berlin style wall, complete with gun towers and a broad killing zone inside the concertina wire would reduce the number who would successfully cross that border illegally.

But,
- with the fact that the number of undocumented aliens is already not growing
- with all our other borders that are far easier to cross
- with the fact that half of those here came legally and stayed
- with the fact that we have other means of stopping people from arriving, including those who overstay
- with the fact that we allow people to come to America illegally to apply for asylum from some truly horrible places, something very American that I don't want to see ended
- with the political statement that such walls make

... I just do not see spending tens of billions on a wall as being a positive addition, let alone being cost effective.