A couple of questions for (Christian) Theists!

would you stop criticizing everything? I have to read two books every week usually due to my profession, but they are scientific books and have a totally different approach on the matter. Also my field within history is focused on more contemporary events, hence my lack of knowledge within religious beliefs.

It might be hard for you to understand, but not everything is in books. It's harder to understand people's beliefs by reading the bible, than asking them. I'm an Atheist so I do not believe in a (or the) God. That doesn't mean that I dislike faithful people. I wish to explore their beliefs by getting their views. That's important! I don't care if people quote the bible as long as it explains their personal belief and their personal view. That's the fascinating part. I could read up on the Christian belief on wikipedia if I really wanted to, but I would not get my questions answered nor would I get closer to understanding the people who do believe very deeply in Christian teachings.

Where I live the bigger part of the population are moderate Christians - if they are Christians at all. They might go to church on Sundays and they do belief in God, but they doubt much of the content of the bible. I think it's rather hard to find "Creationists" around here, hence the approach to the questions of mine is totally different here. Whenever I ask people I get "you don't have to take it literally" or "I don't really believe in that part". While Atheists make up 15% in the US, the number here is at 40% and the number is rising. Christians who really follow the bible deeply are in a very small minority here, and I don't happen to know any of them. But this may be to the fact that I spend most of my time at the University. Every theist I know would be too moderate to answer any of these questions from a true theistic point of view.

 

You point of view is myopic.

It is equivalent to saying that alzheimer's disease is beneficial to the extent that you at least do not remember the pain and suffering of this life.
You have the advantage with such a disease of continually making new friends you forgot and forgetting all past relationships which were emotional for you.

A more insightful observation would be that you finally have access to the Truth, concerning what goes on in our lives, simply because you have the evidence of the past experiences available to you.
Yoi have been there, done that.

You actually KNOW things in the way Christians so often insist they just know this or that is true.

But when the time comes, after our species begins birthing us who will have access into the Unconscious mind,...
..."then shall you know (in hindsight), even as also people now are known (tangibly to you)."



1Cor. 13:12 For now we see through a glass (of our times), darkly, (for instance, we are at the disadvantage, that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled and history is yet occur that makes some things more clear); but then, (in that promised day, when knowledge abounds: [Dan 12:4]), face to face, (with insight into our own past that has been phylogenetically stored in our Unconscious mind):
now I know (only) in part; but then shall I know (in hindsight), even as also I am known (tangibly to you, now).

 

Oh, good.

Answers are good, because the powers and principalities that have been set in place long before you were born are institutionalized and act as social forces that detour you away from the Truth, as you will see as one of the benefits of resurrecting the sleeping Unconscious mind that is now already inside you, but closed off from your Conscious mind.

Let me go back to question 1, since question 2 is out of the way.
The Bible explains what I am saying and lists some of the immediate benefits that will accompany this next step of evolution that broadens your awareness of life beyond the short range of this single experience and gives you meaning and purpose in the largest sense as a member of our species which joins the living after long interludes of sleep, returning to us mentally with a totally new and reconditioned physical body:

Revelation 21:4-5
And God, (blessing them with Total Phylogenetic Consciousness: [Carl Jung]), shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind: [Freudian Hypothesis]), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a genetically remember able, a continuum, we shall remember from one generation to the next living generation); and,
(in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death... (For we shall not all "sleep:" [1Co15:51], but total phylogenetic Consciousness will have evolved), neither sorrow... (For we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own past, flowers upon our genetic vine), nor crying,.. (for we are happy in these revelations of reconstitution from our human gene pool), neither shall there be any more pain, (as men will have neurological control, a self-hypnotic ability to stop the nerve signals to the brain),... for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens paradigm of the life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the Christ, the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind in their own Kingdom within), that sat upon the throne (within the kingdom of the evolving Homoiousian sapiens' brain: [Luke 17:21]) said, Behold, (in this way, through evolution: [Gen 9:11-18]), I make all things (in human experience) new.
And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true, (i.e.; words of Christ himself, who is the experiential presence of Truth in us, rational, the Unconscious mind), and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

 

1) It is the Old Testament, the Jewish Bible which tells us that the Father is a jealous god, and gets angry when we by pass "him" in order to wroship otherwise.

2) The Lord of the New Testament is the son-of-God, which is the ideal or concept called Truth.

3) Truth is the image of the reality we are trapped within.
When men ignore the Truth, and hence fail to live or worship in Reality, the father of the creation we are trapped within does get jealous.

Man is supposed to live in reality.
That is sane.

Reality will burn your hands in the fire right here on earth if you ignore it.

 

Ok, you seem to be genuine, so I'll answer the first as best I know how. I can answer all, but I believe after the first question, there will just be more questions to follow on the topic. It would actually be best to maybe inbox me (to prevent further interference by others), or present each question in a different thread on each subject.
The first thing you should know is that I come from a "calvinistic" or "reformed" theological background, so my worldview will be seen through that lens.
1. The immortal life after death is good because I get to see my savior and Lord, Jesus Christ. I actually get to praise Him, serve Him, and glorify Him face to face. So for me thats a joyous triumphal feeling. As far as judgement goes, Romans 8:1 says "there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus", so I'll not be judged on my iniquities, only on those deeds that I've done to Glorify Jesus. I think people follow the Bible to the best of their abilities, due to the fallen nature of man (oiginal sin), and their sibmission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believe that as the Holy spirit reveals your sin, and you submit to His authority, you consistently transform ("metamorphoo" - in the greek) your life to the nature of Jesus Christ, who was our living example while on earth. There, as with everything, are exceptions to every rule, so as an aside, you can't judge the actions of everyone claiming to be "christian", with what scripture demands of a person who has been "born again". I hope this helps as I can understand how you feel, not having been around christians. I have the same problem with Roman Catholocism, as I don't personally know many catholics, and can only go by what I read and what I see here on this forum. I have a skewed view of catholics based on my limited experience with them. I'm sure I have many misunderstandings of them and their beliefs due to my limited personal knowledge of them, and I've seen that this forum is not the best place to get the knowledge that I seek on their beliefs.

 

You must realize you are merely giving lip service to the Bible interpretations of John Calvin (1509-64),... right?

This was a man who had not yet had the privelege to learn that the Big Bang Theory supported Gen 1:1, nor that Light did not appear in the Universe for quite some time after that initial beginning.

He did not realize that the Unuverse is 13.5 billionyears old, and its history is divided into seven very long "days" of durations in the millions of years each, called Geological Eras.

He was unaware of Pangea and had no idea what Gen 1:9 was even talking about.

Don't you believe modern people can do a better job of explaining the verse that are written in the Bible than those wonderful, but rather lost people of 500 years ago???

 

My "lip service" (LOL), to calvin was for a general understanding of my worldview. Am I aware that "science" has "evolved" since the time of the reformation? of course. Does it color my worldview as seen through scripture? Not in the least. Can modern people have a better understanding of whats in scripture than their predecessors? Possibly. Now, you can label me or think whatever you want about me, and its of no concern to me. I was simply stating MY answers to the question. If one doesn't like or share those views, then its of no relevance to my beliefs.

 

I went to an accredited methodist collage mihapiha and I think I am more qualified to criticize a cultist (Jung) from a Christian perspective than an Atheist (you) who refuses to pick up a bible.

You need to understand that he (Cupid Dave) is using a Jungian interpretation of religion. What is this?
Spirituality
Jung's work on himself and his patients convinced him that life has a spiritual purpose beyond material goals. Our main task, he believed, is to discover and fulfill our deep innate potential. Based on his study of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, Taoism, and other traditions, Jung believed that this journey of transformation, which he called individuation, is at the mystical heart of all religions. It is a journey to meet the self and at the same time to meet the Divine. Unlike Sigmund Freud, Jung thought spiritual experience was essential to our well-being.[40]

Understand that the view you are getting from Dave is more Agnostic than Christian. I am not saying Dave is not a Christian but I am saying that if you compare his views to the Bible you may come to the conclusion that Christians are mentally ill. You need a foundation. You must study to build that foundation.

There again you could just read watch tower and get in the JW cult and get their view as well.

In my opinion you need to get a KJV with Strongs full concordance and a bible dictionary. You need to look at the Greek and Hebrew words that were translated. Don't take the word of any joe blow on the internet (not me either and that is why I answer as I do).

But you just go ahead and do as you like and you may come out so screwed up in your understanding of Christianity that you consider all Christians nut jobs.

 

Well, there are of course probably as many different answers to your questions as there are Theists and I am in no way representative of them all, but here are mine:

I’m a universalist. I believe that Christ took all our sins upon himself and will guide all of us home to God. I don’t think anybody will end up in hell, not even Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin, even though they might feel mightily sorry once they realize what they have done in life. Going home to where our souls truly belong is a good thing.

While I do believe God created the universe I don’t believe in Creationism.

All in all see the answer for the first question.

As for the jealous God: That’s an OT-expression, that is probably rooted in the Israelites then historical situation. They were a small desert people under threat of cultural annihilation. As such they were eager to preserve their religious/cultural identity. In a way God may be ‘jealous’ in that He does not like us to focus our attention on unimportant or harmful things such as the big idol of our time: mammon.

As to what happened to the people before Christ: Christ is beyond time, so there is no ‘before Christ’. Also you may interpret 1 Peter 3:19 for example as Christ preaching to the dead . So no need to worry. God won’t let any of us get lost.

As to which religion is right: I don’t think any of us can fully grasp God. Thus all religions may have their flaws and their good points, but mine is my spiritual home so to speak: the language/imagery and thought model I’m acquainted with when trying to get a grasp of God, my ‘tail of the Elephant’.

Christians (and the biblical Jews) are just people and people have the regrettable inclination to be xenophobic/to be suspicious of people that are different while they chauvinistically deem their own culture/religion best. Of course a wrong understanding of the gospel of John for example did not help. Having been written under the impression of the new Christian sect just having been kicked out of the synagogues as ‘heretics’ the gospel of John did find some particularly unfriendly words against the Jewish religious establishment. However: I should hope that these days very few Christians are hostile against Jews.

Lol, who’s to say whether God has a problem with sex, drugs and rock and roll per se or not? However: I believe Satan is just a personification for evil, i.e. our human inclination to do what’s bad for us and our fellow-men. As anybody who’s ever had a bad hangover and regretful blackouts can probably tell you, sex, drugs and rock and roll can of course be bad for you. So if I was to imagine a place like hell, it would be a place where you’d have a really really bad hangover rather than the fun bit ahead.

 

Wow. Great so many responses. I'll try to answer them all.

You raise a good point. I must admit, I hadn't considered it that way. I do believe knowledge is always good, and you raise a fair point.

It will take me some time to fully understand the quote you used. I'm afraid my English is not yet on a high enough standard for me to fully understand the vers-form of the bible. I will look up the quote in a language closer to me and I will definitely think about it's content. If a question emerges I hope you don't mind if I do follow up with it after everything sinks in.

 

I totally agree with the unconscious premis. I think it's very important that we figure out ways to access the unconscious. I have to admit that I only partly understand (at best) C.G. Jung. I'm far far away from his philosophical genius to even fully understand what he meant. I have a dear friend who's an expert on the field though. He's a PhD in Philosophy and I spend many hours talking to him about Jung. He introduced me to C.G. Jung and Jean Gebser. On Gebser he's the real expert and even published a biography. I have great difficulty understanding him though. Our friendship has made it possible for me to repeatedly read Jung's texts and ask a person in the field I trust. But I'm still stuck, I'm afraid. I'm not the "introversion"-type Jung classifies. But I would love fully understand it - therefore I keep working on it.

It's been merely three years since I've been confronted with C.G. Jung for the first time, and my understanding is still poor at best. But I'll do my very best to follow any thoughts of your's or anybody else's on the matter. It will only take me a little longer, and might result in me calling my friend for another cup of coffee and for the 10th time going over this topic again I'm sure eventually a light-bulb will go on in my mind.

 

I'm not sure if I fully understand what you meant. The old and new Testament are linked and I heard in class that the Jewish, Christian and Muslim God are the same as they are the God "Jahwe" mentioned in the old Testament. Would you disagree with this premis? Hence I don't fully understand your second point either. In Christian belief Jesus is the son of God and God. It's the trinity represented in God, Jesus Christ and the holy ghost. The Trinity all are "Jahwe" or God from the old testament, or did I misunderstand the connection there. Tell me if my understanding is wrong, or if I'm missing a vital part within my premis.

I do understand the third point of yours, but doesn't this include me for example? As an Atheist I do not pray or worship the "truth" or "reality" as stated in the bible. This should mean I classify as someone who directly ends up in hell. Is there a group you think maybe like Atheists or maybe another religion who just don't qualify for heaven due to their different beliefs? Someone who might fall into the premis of my third question?

 

Thanks for addressing my question. I think there is some truth here. It might have been better if I'd made more topics and kept them separate, but it backfired once before. I wanted to have this kind of a discusion on another topic and it went into a heated debate between pro- and anti- people. I felt excluded really quickly and it totally missed the point intended. Maybe in future it may be possible though, as people like you, cupid dave and others see (or will see) is that I'm only collecting opinions and trying to understand beliefs not judging them or contradicting them. And if you look at it: I'm pretty sure that people are still in doubt about my intentions.

To get to your answer to my first question: I do understand that, and I feel you've answered the first question of mine pretty understandable for a laymen like myself. Also it is the best answer on that matter I've gotten so far, I must say. It does explain to me heaven (from a theistic point of view, which is understandable) and it does explain who classifies for heaven from a "calvinistic" or "reformed" point of view There is one follow up question which does remain in my mind though: The waiting-state or waiting-period before judgement day. This future seems quite weird. I admit from an egoistic point of view, you may be lucky and judgement day may come in close future, but it may take centuries or thousands of years. I know I'm mad every time I have to wait for more than an hour to see a doctor, I couldn't imagine waiting for centuries to be judged. It is this pre-heaven and pre-hell scenario within the bible I do not fully understand. I understand that people would want to go to heaven and avoid hell (and your picture of heaven did help to clarify much in my mind), but this state prior to that? Doesn't seem to be that desirable sitting there waiting...

 

Fair enough about the freedom of beliefs.
Indeed.

But on a critical level in regard to Christianity in general, the present positions the church people have taken is embarrassing contrary to the facts of science and the inferrence that ancient men like Calvin "opened to book" that was "sealed until the end" is seems to admit to a world view that failed to do exactly that,... i.e.; open the Bible to us.


5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Isn't it wiser to credit the Bible with the corresponding science that now supports it?

 

We must admit that in 32AD, Jesus was driving out the evil spirits in the psychic sense, referri9ng to them by name, such as Satan and the Devil. Today, the Churches are very involved in counseling and what amounts to psychology that they have developed somewhat dependent upon modern ideas.


Then, the things Jung said about spirituality make sense when we see the whole idea is to chnage behavior by changing the way people think.




Jung and Freud initiated the ideas we once found hard to believe.
They opened the door for us to see what the Bible meant by "The kingdom of God is within."

But the books on the subject are merely primers for entertaining the ideas that correspond to scripture.
I do not totally agree with what is stated in this book, but I see that it pushes the right envelop forward in many ways:
Stephan A. Hoeller (Author
January 1, 1982 | Series: Quest Books

Jung wrote in 1916 the Seven Sermons to the Dead after he had received intense psychic experiences.The author has made his own translation of the sermons and sets forth a lengthy explanation and far-ranging commentary on Jung, Gnosticism, and the present condition of the Western individual

http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Seven-Sermons-Quest-Books/dp/083560568X

1. The first conclusion is that a pneumatic or spiritual, or more than personal element is an organic part of the human psyche, (i.e.; THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND IN US).

2. The second conclusion is that this spiritual element, (i.e.; THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND), carries on an active dialogue with the personal element of the self-hood (i.e.; THE CONSCIOUS MIND), through the use of symbols.

3. The third conclusion is that the symbols proceed from the pneumatic component of the soul, (i.e.; THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND), reveal a path of spiritual or psychological development, which can be traced, not only backward toward a cause in the (ANCIENT PREVIOUS EXISTENCE), past, but forward to a goal in the future (IN WHAT IS NOW A DIRECTED EVOLUTION FOR MANKIND).

4. The fourth conclusion is the prior to an arising of Gnosis (or individuation as Jung might call it) the human soul, , (i.e.; THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND), is dominated by many blind and foolish powers (OF THE SUBCONSCIOUS MIND).

5. The fifth conclusion is that the alienation of consciousness, along with its attendant feelings of forlornness, dread, and homesickness, must be fully experienced before it can be overcome. (??)

6. The sixth conclusion brings us back to the process of Gnosis, (GAINING KNOWLEDGE), and its goal, (i.e.; OMEGA POINT), for it declares that the goal of spiritual growth is expressed by images of completion in a whole, (i.e.; THE IMAGE OF REALITY IN THE FORM OF TRUTH IS THAT GOAL), which the Gnostics often called the Pleroma (Fullness) and/ or the Anthropos, or Primal Man, (OR THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS), and which Jung called the Self.
This Self, (THE UNCONSCIOUS MIND), the representative of the fullness of being within an individual context, is unique for each individual and is formed by the integration of the little self, or ego, and the unconscious, (OR SUB-CONSCIOUS ARCHETYPES).

7. The seventh conclusion is that the wholeness, or Self, (THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS), which is the end result, (THE IMAGE OF GOD ON EARTH), of the process of spiritual growth, is characterized by all the qaulities such as power, value, holiness which religious systems have always attributed to God.

8 The eight conclusion is that the growth of the soul, (THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS MIND), has as its goal a state of integrated wholeness, (THE REVELATION OF WHAT IS TRUE ABOUT THE EXTERNAL WORLD THAT BOTH TRAPS AND NURTURES US), rather than a condition of moral perfection.

 

I think you may misunderstand the words "questioning" and "criticizing". I'm an Atheist yes, but that doesn't mean I am ignorant or hateful towards people of faith. Quite the contrary. I would like to explore their views which are totally foreign to me, yet very fascinating. I need more informations before I could possibly ask the right questions. I do not have the right knowledge yet to properly ask the right questions from a theistic point of view. This topic is a first attempt to get a closer understanding in a field I know nothing about. In time I will catch up, and I might be able to ask the questions without touching a nerv (it seems). But I have to get the knowledge from sources I can question. I cannot question the bible. I have read it (although years ago) yet my approach towards the content is so different, that it leads towards more questions than answers. Here I just hope to find people who are willing to talk about their faith, and who give me the opportunity to ask, whenever they get to a point I do not fully understand or follow. That's the point. I'm not trying to find God or faith, which I think you may have presumed.

As stated before, my understanding of Jung's texts is poor at best, and I'm no where near his philosophical genius. I'm merely a historian and my field of expertise is limited to research, the attempt of understanding and evaluation. My (contemporary) research leads towards evaluation of sources and hopefully the understanding of them. But I cannot put myself in the shoes of a different belief-system. That's why it's so difficult even remotely understanding the views of people of faith to me. I do not wish to evaluate the bible as a source! What I do wish to do though, is getting closer to the understanding of the belief-system. Whether the belief does come from one or another Christian group is irrelevant I think. The important thing is that people who are faithful answer these questions as they can. After some time we will find common ground and I will be follow their thought process and this will get me closer to understanding. The more versions the merrier. But I accept any belief as long as it can be explained within their belief system. Like I said before I won't argue against or contradict points made. This means I won't evaluate the belief either. Whether you classify someone as Agnostic, Christian or something else is of non importance to me. I think every person can judge for themselves what the most accurate description is. I don't like the term Atheist for myself, but it's the closest one which gives others an understanding what goes hand in hand with it.

Therefore feel free to give me your point of view on the matter. Maybe your's is more illuminative than you may think. I do have an open mind.

 

Dave I was not criticizing you and how you believe I was saying that an infant needs baby food not a doctrine that may contradict (at first glance) the general Christian philosophy. This is why I replied as I did in the first place. To ask such a question on the internet will generally lead to a failure of understanding and the OP has shown an unwillingness to actually make any effort to learn anything.

 

Translation, please.

 

If you accept Truth as the light into the world of Reality, you are doing as Christ said regardless of your inability to read the Bible rationally.

Accepting and behaving in accord with the Truth saves you.
Its saves our species from the consequences of living in a fantasy world that prevents our soecies from going extinct.

Truth is the messiah the Bible explains, you have just failed in reading comorehension, but your spirit is OK, since you are a believer.


The trinity is easy to understand:


TRINITY:
Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, the Almighty Reality, within which we all exist.


Truth is not Reality, but we can not tell one from the image of the other.

 

A christian sees spiritually as well as visually and emotionally. This is why I have answered your posts as I have. Here you will get many views that may all be based on the Bible. Some will be from those of faith and others will be from those who use the Bible as a tool and nothing more.

I could do this but the fact is I would only use scripture to answer questions and not give you the views of others. Mine is to point the way yours is to go one the journey.

 

There are two assertions here:
Firslty, to suggest that nobody will go to heaven because they are sinners, which is contrary to the word of the bible. It states very clearly that a) Christ died for your sins and b) The rewards of heaven will be bestowed on those who follow Him. Christ is the way to heaven, it is clearly mapped out. With the revision of the law, the requirements are not very demanding. John 3:16 is the most widely recognized verse for a reason.

Secondly to suggest that "nobody does follow the bible really" is a remarkably disingenuous presumption. Our very society is honed by it. Many faithful seek answers to problems they cannot on their own conclude. To suggest that because nobody is without sin, they are not faithful to the word of God, does not bear the burden of credulity.

I cannot address this question, only its rebuttal which you indicated you accepted. I do not.

A lot here to discuss. The term jealous is more likely stretched a bit in translation... it appears to me, through Stroms and the Vulgate, that the word is more likely zealous, than jealous. Yes... most will end up not in heaven. Your argument also provides only two eventualities, heaven or hell. There is no room to interpret purgatory or simply void. The accuracy of what the believers accept happens after death has nothing to do with their faith in the word of the bible. Yes, few will make it into heaven... and fewer still (numbering 144,000) will be in top shelf heaven. The chosen select have already been numbered by God, and you are not amongst them. Again your argument is predicated on the assumption that those who sin will not go to heaven. The divisions of Christianity matter little as the minutia is concerned, as the path to heaven is lain out. Any subset/offshoot of Christianity that does not believe the practical application of Jesus' words with regard to entering the kingdom of heaven, is wrong. Jesus was asked several times what was required to get into heaven, each time he gave a different answer, each answer was for the person/people asking the question. The rich man must give his fortune to the poor... for instance. The overall impression I get is:
Believe in God with all the strength you can.
Believe in Jesus as the Son of God, who died for your sins.
Follow the commandments, keep them sacred.
Do good works, in contrast to your desires.
Be baptized.

God divorced Israel as they were unfaithful to the Lord, not following the much more difficult laws of Moses. He is displeased with His children throughout most of the bible... and there was the whole bringing Jesus to trial as a heretic, and arguing to the Roman authority of His blasphemy. That sticks in the craw of some. Their continued rejection of the Christ messiah probably furthers this. However I would suggest that MOST Christians do not hold ill feelings toward Jews.

All beings work "for" God in one way or another. He was more than disobedient, he caused a war in heaven attempting to usurp the throne of God, which he was chosen to guard. The eternal battle for souls could be seen as Lucifer's attempt to justify his position as ruler. His presence is torture to man, as God's is euphoric. The environments of heaven and hell create the sublime or torturous existence.


I guess that is enough to start.
I am an atheist btw.

 

First of all, thanks for addressing all my questions. The answer to my first question indeed proves that you're an universalist This answer of your's does create so many questions in my head that I wouldn't know where to start. I fear that it may go off topic, which I really don't want to happen. But the approach is new. Any further thoughts on judgement day and/or the waiting time prior?

The third question you answered in a way I can easily follow. I don't think there are any follow-up questions in mind, especially if I keep the first answer in mind.

In regards to anti-semitism in our history: You chose a historic and cultural approach to answer the question, which I agree with. And I'm hopeful that hostility towards the Jewish community really came to an end. I must admit, that I was hoping for a theological approach. Maybe a passage or something else which would justify the poor treatment. You see in the middle ages Christians were not allowed to work for (or under) Jews and Jews were not allowed to be landlords, because this would put Jews in a higher state than Christians. According to the middle-age sources I read thus far they base these regulation on the fact that Jews were the reason for Jesus's premature death. That was the approach in the middle-ages though; I haven't been able to find a different reason or justification. Apparently the Jewish community was condemned into a lower category yet tolerated within Christian communities because they accepted the same God. I could never figure out if there is something within the Christian belief to justify this. In the old testament it does say the Jews are the "chosen people".

You are right. The approach of sex, drugs and alcohol is far-fetched and might be positive in God's eyes; who knows? I just figured I'd put an example of what I'd imagine a really bad bad place in a "Christian" sense might look like under the leadership of someone with big powers and no respect for God what so ever. The real question is not "what does hell look like" but "why would Satan do what God wants him to do". As the angle who deserted God, Satan I'd imagine wouldn't all of the sudden follow Gods instructions of torturing bad people. A more "logical" approach would be that he has fun in the place he runs and doesn't do whats him to do.

- - - Updated - - -

Codswallop is a British expression for bullsh*t or crap.

 

This is a far too detailed answer for me to answer in one post. I will therefore address it one post at a time.

You raise two good points. Indeed if you follow him you will end up in heaven according to Christian beliefs, but it doesn't address my question of why internal life is desirable. The "disingenuous presumption" of mine was based on my observations. On what I know of Christian teachings, it would be impossible to fulfill them a lifetime. Everybody lies at some point, most likely on (more or less) regular bases. It's hard to "love your enemies" or "turn the other cheek" every time. I figured by the high moral standards of the teachings, it's a mere fact that everyone ends up being a sinner. And since God cannot be fooled, you pay for your sins by going to hell eventually. This was a mere conclusion on my part, which I didn't see as desirable. I figured it must be a conclusion faithful people may reach themselves too, and I wanted to hear their view on the matter.

There have been interesting approaches so far. Hard to say which one was most intriguing, and I'm hoping to read many more!

 

I haven't read the bible in English. I read it in German. I cannot recall the exact words of it, but I was referring to the 10 commandments, which do display a jealous God, who doesn't want people praying to another God. My question was based on Christian beliefs which are known to me. Although purgatory and void are options the question was based on the limitations of belief. Is just one belief good and others bad? The commandments would indicate that. And how could people know what belief is the right one. As you stated, the people with the wrong belief would end up in hell.

I think your approach is fascinating. If everyone with a Christian belief-system qualifies, would there be multiple religions in heaven? Would there be arguments in the ceremonies how to celebrate or when to celebrate some holiday? I know you're Atheist just as myself, but these questions to me are intriguing. Maybe people have an exact set of values the believe classifies for heaven or hell. Purgatory I fear would complicate the answers even more, if we cannot establish what is good and what is bad

 

Why eternal life is desirable is to do with grace and reward of treasure not applicable in the physical realm. The goal is not your selfish salvation, but a better world as per Gods prescription. As perfect a world as imperfect men can make. One definitely does not want to be in hell for eternity. If you are asking the age old "won't heaven be kind of boring?" the answer would be no. It will be an experience beyond human desire or satisfaction. The real underlying answer to your question is... nobody naturally wants to die... whether or not they accept their deaths. Everything that we are is predicated on the desire to continue living, and living free.

As to fulfilling the quests of salvation... they aren't that hard... and they allow for errs in judgment, so long as in your heart you desire to and make striving effort to adhere to the requirements of heaven.