A couple of questions for (Christian) Theists!

It is not so much Jealousy, in my opinion, but a requirement to not be lead into the false pretence of an entity (man made or other deity) which would lead man to ruin. If my children ran around calling other men Dad, and following their words not mine, it would be out of concern for them being led astray, not jealousy, that I worked to rectify that situation. It would be for their protection, not my ego.

Multiple religions? Only those who believe Christ was the son of God and died for their sins... so that... narrows it a bit.

Personal values aren't really important in the face of belief and personal deeds. A Christian's values should not be their values, but His. "How to celebrate" such n such sort of went out the window with the loss of requirement to hold to the traditions and rituals of Moses laws.

 

That..and all the answers are in the bible. You'd think if people are truly interested in learning these things, they'd crack the book and start looking, before they start *debating* with believers who actually HAVE studied it.

 

Well you are right, for sure.

But the internet is funny.
We really don't know who we are talking to, and what their real point of view or agendas might be.
The only thing we do know for sure is that other people are reading us all.

So I am really answering back with people like you in mind, moire that the guy who iniiated this thread.
He clearly poses questions that the enemy of scripture so often brings to the door of the church people, but also might honestly be an inquiry that is sincere.

Either way, I try to answer so that he knocks on fewer doors in the future, but more importantly, so that people like you can see that, even on his own terms of science and rational thinking, the Bible still makes the sense we all know it always has.


In other words, I speak over the heads of the people who question Christianity to reach the audience of those in Christianity because the Bible is supported by the knowledge discovered so recently, not denigrated or weakened by it.
Those who have accepted Christ as the ideal personified by Truth are already saved from the lies around us.
Those who are not, I hope to educate.

 

I did.

Look... being taught is easier than self teaching... no doubt. Asking questions about something you are not THAT familiar with of those who are, is not an offence in my opinion. I am doing my best to provide strong arguments on the behalf of Christians. I am not "throwing" the arguments, nor am I negatively characterizing Christians in my explanations... nor do I even claim to speak for Christians. I am just trying to promote open and honest discussion, as I am more versed than the OP who asked fair questions IMO.

 

In the final analyze, we must show that scripture supports the things we say when answering these questions:

John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, (Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (indistinguishable from Reality), God (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence (except the Truth formed the vision of it in our mind in regard to its actual existence).

Kant explained exactly this same concept when he set down his philosophy for us.

noumenon
noun ( pl.)
(in Kantian philosophy) a thing as it is in itself, as distinct from a thing as it is knowable by the senses through phenomenal attributes.

 

I see where you are going with this. NP.

 

The Evangelical Christians in America support Israel and work hard to build a good relationship with them.

The past has not always been Christianity's attacks on the Jews, but rather Christianized Europeans doing much the same kind of thing they are doing right now to the Romanian gypsies.

Little attention has been given to this current persecution of a peoples who have no homeland of their own.
It has been the same for the Jews ever since they lost their own homeland.

History reports that no people (Jews excepted here) have ever existed without integrating into the larger society thru marriage or exterminated otherwise. They all disappeared.
This is The Reality.

It is the Truth.

It is also prophecy on many levels.
It is certain that the Jews will survive because they do accept Jesus, in the end.
That is the prophecy.

But they will not be coerced into accepting, rather convinced as the present Christian Humanitarianism gives them the space and time to so do.

They will soon accept that Christ was their own Elijah who had returned in 32AD but was not recognized as such.

 

It is hard for the secular community of today to argue with the idea that our messiah is Truth, since medicine, law, criminal justice, and even the Civil Rights Movement all must bow down to it.

Truth is Lord as the Technological Age has demonstrated by discovering the Truth about the Laws of Nature and using them beneficially.
Presenting the case for Christ as the personification of Truth, not love, is where I am going.

I want the Christians to re-consider their claims in the light that the Torah is Love.
The Torah is summed up as Love God and Love thy neighbor.

Clearly, then, Jesus did not come to repeat a message but to show us the Truth, that we do not love our enemies.

Do you concur with that point of view???

 

I think your answers here leave very few things open. But it's still the same argument as I read in medieval sources, there doesn't appear to be an alternative explanation. I certainly would hope that NO Christian these days holds ill feelings towards Jews, however this cannot be said for our brutal past which was more religious. The justification to blame Jews is weird. They had to do this in the consciences of the bible a few hundred years ago, and one would think that not everything could be blamed one one or two notions and somehow the content of the old testament might prevail from a theological point of view... Unfortunately it did not. Jews were blamed for the most ridiculous things imaginable like the plague.

The notion that all beings work for got is a good approach. I wonder if others do agree with that notion. I thought Lucifer would not obey...

 

I am not a traditional christian or a fundamentalist. I am more of a... well-

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of T-Rex and those who focus on fossilized shells on mountain tops sound foolish. High ground and no other fossils!

I focus on the meaning and the truth behind the scripture.

Lets take the flood. I really don't care if there was a flood (there was one and it was a huge regional flood and that can be backed up using the original languages of record) I do care about the truth of the story. God hates evil.

What of Jesus and what do I see as the truth of it? We are all human and it is forgivable to be that way. We should strive to follow but we will stumble. It is forgivable.

 

There are seven "angels" or messengers that have influence in our thinking, and we must decide whether to take their individual advice before we act or even decide not to act in some cases.

These are the seven archetypes Freud/Jung delineated for us in the 20th century just passed.
Our present State-of-the-Art in Psychology tells us that one particular one out of these seven is dominant in our thinking, naturally.
It is what makes our personality different from that of others.

This is an important insight since we are usually unaware of the dominance, and will often just let the overdrive open us up to thinking in that one mode.
We tend not to use the full potential of our mind, reacting almost instinctively, rather than thoughtfully.

We also have become aware of the good shepherd on our Conscience which shpould be reigning in this dominating thinking and pondering the other "voices" available to us if we are open to listening to them.

Our Libido is centered in our Reptilian Brain, or the Brain Stem.
It is primarily concerned with survival needs such as Reproduction, food, drink, fighting, fleeing, etc.
To suggest that these are all rather Satanic areas of interest makes my point.

 

fair enough. Heaven as stated by elijah does seem desirable from a theistic standpoint. It does paint a better picture. I'd have to say that heaven feels subjective and chances with each person. To me it would mean doing what you want without negative consequences; this though I don't see as theistic approach nor as something desirable. I prefer elijah's and I can understand that there is a conscious or subconscious desire for life not to end.

 

Oh, yeah....

America stumbled in 1965 before the sacrifice by Rev Martin Luther King forced christian attention to the issue of whether King was telling the Truth about the lies of Separate but Equal.

America came thru, sadly, after the usual "shedding of blood."


21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


"Almost," because often, out of the mouth of baes people realize that the Emperor has no clothes on, and the baby can not be punished for innocently saying what everyone already knew.

 

This is interesting. It is fair to see it as protection. I guess is an interpretational question...

Multiple religions yes; the protestants and catholics might have a field-day in heaven. Would be weird if heaven would resemble Northern Ireland lol

I figured that out of theistic notion there is "the one is true belief" approach. But I know that the sheer endless notion of "accepting Jesus Christ as your savior" is within the theistic community. I didn't think this would apply to heaven or hell though due to their different traditions. I figured theists might have a different idea of how heaven and hell would look like. Like I said: I can't imagine theist's notion of heaven would be like Northern Ireland and I cannot imagine that anyone expects fighting to go on upstairs.

 

Christ was The Elijah returned in 32AD, after 800 years.

Th Churches will resist this idea because they have long been teaching otherwise.
But the Jdws will explain this using the Christian misinformation as their excuse for not understanding the Gospels sooner:

They both did the same miracles, which was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back.

Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.

Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.

Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.

Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.

Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.

Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.

Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.

Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days and 40 nights.

Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.

Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.

Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.

Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities

Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead

Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.

Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.

Both had miraculous births.

Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd

Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.

Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

 

I just read this and I will jump ahead and address this before I address previous posts. I didn't mean Elijah from the bible lol

elijah is a member on the forum who responded to my first question in post #30 I was referring to his insightful post

 

From what I understand, eschatology is not my strong suit, the "waiting period" may or may not happen. Some schools of thought teach that after we die, there is a "soul sleep", until we're resurrected, thus you would never realize you were "dead" until you woke up and there was the afterlife, other schools of thought teach that after you die, you're immediately in the afterlife. The word "eternal" carries the connotation of no beginning and no end, so the afterlife would be "out of this time frame", so there would be no "time" that you were waiting. Its all a bit nebulous, so I concentrate on the Lordship and Glorification of Christ while I'm here, and let the "end" take care of itself.

 

...oooh....
...sorry...

But my comments still stand in regard to question 4 or 5, concerning the anti-semitism in Europe during the last 20centuries,...


Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a “ram,” (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the “ram, ” (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’”]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).

- - - Updated - - -

yep, some schols are supported by modern genetics and the insights of Freud and Carl Jung:


Revelation 21:4-5
And God, (blessing them with Total Phylogenetic Consciousness: [Carl Jung]), shall wipe away, (in their awakened Unconscious Mind: [Freudian Hypothesis]), all tears from their eyes, (for life is a genetically remember able, a continuum, we shall remember from one generation to the next living generation); and,
(in genetic memories of prior existences held in our Unconscious Mind) there shall be no more death... (For we shall not all "sleep:" [1Co15:51], but total phylogenetic Consciousness will have evolved), neither sorrow... (For we, individually, are part of a living continuum of our own past, flowers upon our genetic vine), nor crying,.. (for we are happy in these revelations of reconstitution from our human gene pool), neither shall there be any more pain, (as men will have neurological control, a self-hypnotic ability to stop the nerve signals to the brain),... for the former things (in Modern Homo sapiens paradigm of the life experience) are passed away.
And he, (the Christ, the ancient, phylogenetic, Collective Unconscious Mind in their own Kingdom within), that sat upon the throne (within the kingdom of the evolving Homoiousian sapiens' brain: [Luke 17:21]) said, Behold, (in this way, through evolution: [Gen 9:11-18]), I make all things (in human experience) new.
And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true, (i.e.; words of Christ himself, who is the experiential presence of Truth in us, rational, the Unconscious mind), and (worthy of) faithful (belief).

 

That was funny how it got a little derailed!

 

This is definitely true that there are always some groups excluded. Or at least appear to be. The gypsies may be a very contemporary example indeed. It is weird though that the most "fundamental" orthodox Jews disagree with a Jewish country. Something in the old testament apparently says that only God can give Jews a land of their own, and they're supposed to live among others. Or something in that regard. I have forgotten it's precise content and I'd have to look it up. But this goes a bit off topic anyways.

You cannot see anything besides the "not accepting Jesus"-story (which we addressed to a degree already) which would justify anti-semite views from faithful Christians either, right. Blaming the Jewish community must have then come from a non-theistic approach. There is just no justification just as I thought.

 

This approach seems very much philosophical and psychological in it's premiss, not a theistic or theological one. The philosophy is insightful indeed, but I'd prefer to keep it within the boundaries of theology. Philosophy is by far too detailed especially in combination on the metaphysical level. It is totally fair to combine these, don't get me wrong, but it brings your answer to an entirely new level, which I'm sure I won't be able to follow. There's just too much I'm missing, and it would take me years to catch up in order for this conversation to find your intended ending. I merely read a handful of Philosophers, who are in some form connected with the field of history. I'd appreciate it, if you could manage to come back a step so we have common grounds where I can follow.

But you do see Satan or Lucifer in negative deeds? Why would he follow God by torturing people? Shouldn't hell be full of those negative deeds?

 

I take it, you haven't given the "waiting period" much thought. This surprises me. I'd thought that the first thing one would like to know is the after-life process. But your response does answer a couple of things. There are different notions on what would or could happen, and they don't seem to be alike. I definitely agree that it's best to focus on life rather than death.

The teaching of the eternal soul without beginning or end, would mean a souls existence prior to life. I never saw this as a part of Christianity. I thought life was secret because both (life and soul) would appear or be created at the same time. This is interesting though. Not as plausible as the soul-sleep, but interesting...

 

I personally believe that after we die we are immediately with the Lord (based on reformed theology), I was just showing the different schools of thought. And I've always considered the eternality of the soul, and this may have something to do with being "predestined before the foundations of the earth".

 

Cool. I just want to make sure I know what it means before using it again.

 

It is a part of Christianity.

""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5...Also it is a Christian tenet that every occurrence is a part of God's plan, including every single life (and not just human). Christ existed before he was born to Mary..and every pastor I've ever heard talk on the subject, and every thing I've read, concurs that we are eternal beings...before we are formed, and after we die.

How that works out in the end with regard to memory and experience, who knows.