A couple of questions for (Christian) Theists!

The post that Cupid Dave made is factually incorrect. It is false and unsupported. Please do not adopt these erroneous claims as truth. Racial "stocks" is bunk science and accepted by no credible scientist in the 21st century.

 

David, please stop teling this lie. You know that this is not true.

 

You're missing the point. The point of this topic are not scientific answers. The point are answers within the belief-system which explain the answers to the questions I have. Individual answers if possible. This topic is about religious beliefs not the scientific approach. I have easy access to the scientific approach where I live, it's the religious approach I don't have access too and which I'd like to explore.

 

I don't think I have a clue as to what you're talking about or how it relates to my post.

And you may have to write a prolegomena before I can understand your posts. We evedently are not operating from the same dictionary.

 

Sometimes others opinions matter. As your own conclusions will stem from your own biases. Having another opinion or 2 may help see past any biases and give a different perspective.

 

Not everyone attends a methodist or any christian college. So most don't get the understanding of christianity from within.
And yes, having been a christian most of my life and now researching all religions to some extent, some christians come off as nut jobs. Not all.
But that means there is something fundamentally flawed with christianity or the way christianity is taught. Something as fundamental as eternal paradise should not be so fundamentally flawed that even christians themselves can not understand how one achieve this eternal bliss.

I would be willing to bet your view of christianity is different that one who attended a catholic college. And in some very fundamental ways. So, is one view more right or wrong than the other?

 

My views are different than that of the collages. I refer to scripture and if it is not in the scripture I don't add things like many fundamentalists do.

I do agree that there are many views and most are not wrong but there are also many views that contradict the Bible itself.

 

The problem with that approach is the very limited viewpoint to understand it from.
As can be seen from this thread alone, there are many valid views to which to try and understand what is in the bible.

 

I agree. I think many of the major christian religions fall into that category. They added their own doctrine. It is what makes christianity hard to follow.

Having attended a religious college gives you a different and deeper understanding of scripture than the average christian who attends church on sundays and only knows what the preacher says.

 

They are all diferent as you infer above, these denominational teraching colleges and the denominational Bible interpretation wxcept for the one common thread among them.

They all defend their teachers/college training as did the pharisees in 32AD.
The have the keys to the kingdom but will not use them, nor will they quietly stand aside and let anyother "cult" use them.

Cult is the key word for "do not even listen to this new idea because it is not our teachings nor even any of your other denominational teachings."

What is both amusing and evil about this characteristic of all the churches/teaching colleges is that this was the cause of 32AD, when these same attitudes rose up to physically silence the one who they were waiting to hear when he DID come.

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah...
Every church claims that they refer only to scripture so that in effect, God said it, and then their point of view can not be wrong.

The problem with this lie is that what we read in the Bible verbatim needs to be explained since it otherwise is either ambiguous or totally unreasonable as stated.

Example:

Rev 21:4 ...and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away....


I agree that we must refer to the verse, the context within which the verse is found, and other supporting scripture for any ideas we might suggest concerning these types of otherwise unfathomable concepts are written.

BUT, in the name of religious freedom of speech, I adhere to the rule that every thought has the equal right to be placed upon the table for consideration, even the clearly wrong an foolish.


Matt18:20
For where two (people) or (even) three (whole different denominational congregations?) are gathered together in my name (Truth), there am I, (the son of Reality), in the midst of them.

 

I do not defend and Church or denomination. All have fallen short.

They criticize gays and they are full of womanizing alcoholics, serial monogamists, unwed mothers... Churches are not doing a good job at all and many are Cults themselves.

I consider a Cult anything that takes scripture and changes the meaning to make the group exclusive and in the know. When I mentioned the Jungist cult I was referring to those who worship the writings and opinions of Jung. I personally have quite a bit of respect for Jung as he brought a bit of wisdom and experience to the psychological field. His work (to me) is better than the Freude dude.

 

Theology is the study of the concept of God, particularly now, in regard to monotheism and the basis for what is written in the texts held as authoritative by the three participants in this monotheism.

The discipline of Theology is where we examine what is written in the Old testament, the New Testament and the Koran.
Theology is therefore concerned with what these books say.

But the inference of "-ology" is that we essential do not know what they say from what is directly written, but we must use the writings to figure out the meanings.

Do you agree with this?
Because the next step thereafter is to evaluate what we think/accept them to be saying.

To wit:
They all admit to some invisible, intangible entity, (spirits, angels, Gods) that mediate between man's conscious thinking and the behaviors we observe by men.
All these writings suggest there is an influence on our bhavior coming from some source outside our own conscious domain.

How is this NOT related to what Freud and Carl Jung have said?

 

And this is why I feel a forum is not the proper venue for this type of discussion. If one is not willing to actually study then one will never understand.

 

You are a wise man, indeed.

The churches are saved by the grace and degree of their charity and their history of maintaining the scriptures pretty much as written throughout 3000 years now.
To their credit, they have copnsecutively collected congregations of people generation after generation who came to read the Bible and study and think about what is written.

This has gather the students in ti present world wide classroom for the great teacher we expect, and "When the students have assembled, while the teacher not come," the Jews ask again and again.

 

But everyone here claims they espouse what to them seems true?
We have all assembled in his name, then.
Have we not?

When the teacher comes, as he shall, things like "the seven sipirts before god" will be explained.

My paper will be graded, as will yours, and the various churches too, as the Truth will be known then.
In th mean time, we talk among ourselves.

To the unbeliever, the science minded person, the doubting Thomas, I say seven archetypal Freudian/Jungian spirits are a reasonable meaning for them to take the ancient writings seriously, and join us in the wait.
I say to them, there is more here than Solomon's Temple, History, and myth.

I say, this could all make rational concrete sense when it is explained in a way that does just that.
I say, dismiss the church, dismiss the know-it-all preachers, but do not dismiss the scriptures themselves..

 

1. To live in the presence of the creator in eternal joy and peace. It gives hope to the down trodden and inspiration to the wealthy to work good.

2. Evolution is neither here nor there. It is pridefulness for a Christian to think that he can grasp the tools of creation. God created us to survive and to deny reality is putting God in a box and shows a lack of faith.

3. The issue I see with this is trying to put the divine in mans world. It is written that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and witnessed to the saints of old and it is a matter of omnipresence that leads me to believe that Christ in those days witnesses to all who had passed.

Christ went to prepare a place for man and the lake of fire is not here yet.

4. This is a human failing and radicals have blamed the Jews for the death of Christ. People in this class also put God in a box. If they believe in Christ and his mission then they need to blame God for allowing them to be saved by grace. God sent Jesus to be a sacrifice and he was killed by plan.

5. Hell is punishment for disobedience. Satan/Lucifer or whatever one chooses to call him is like a prosecuting attorney. He is the embodiment of the evil that is in every mans heart and if we choose to follow him we choose eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation. It is a choice. As mentioned in my reply to 3 this in my mind is looking the divine in the face and spitting on him.

 

We are here and this is true but:
2 Peter 2
New International Version (NIV)
False Teachers and Their Destruction

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

One thing I forgot to mention pertaining to four is the black death. The Jews were ceremonial clean people during the Black Plague and the Jewish community was not as affected as other communities. This bread a bit of hatred for them that lingers today. The people don't know why they hate the jews but they do.

Jealousy is another issue as Jews are taught good stewardship from a young age and are shrewd business people. They generally succeed at endeavors where money is concerned.

 

32AD, is that the date of the crucifixtion you refer to or the ascension?

 

Because most religions DON'T have some stipulation that we are controlled by outside forces. Or, in the case of claims that one is "influenced by the devil", that is a shallow explanation and leaves out the always present "Free-Will" that we each have.


You can't shirk ownership for your deeds by claiming outside forces mediate our actions.


And no, it aint related to what Jung or Freud said.

- - - Updated - - -

There aint 7 Freudian/Jungian spirits, bro, and you know that. Your paper gets an F.

 

Free will does not imply that you will never have to deal with outside forces that seek to influence you. In point of fact, free will refers to your actions when those influences are brought to bear. Free will encompasses YOUR choices/decisions WHEN you are having some sort of force exerted against you. It doesn't imply that you exist in a vacuum where there are no tough choices.

 

Factually, it was the Black Plague that led people to search out a scape goat that resulted on them pointing at these "foreigners," the Jews.

This was compounded by preaching against the Jews, who had initially dn e the same thing, early on iagainst the Christian movement.
What came around to the fledgeling Christian communities, went around later into the Jewish communities inside the empire.



The turn arounds in events, wherein the Christians became strong and better situated, then the total conversion of all Europe into mandatory Christianity, these together created a gigantic enemy for the Jews, the people who preiously had used Pagan Roman laws and indifference to accuse the Christians of all things.

But the same thing is happening to the Romanian gypies now, and we saw Kosovo recently undergo an ttempted ethnic cleansing.

The truth is more that foreigners are strangers easily attacked. But "welcome the stranger" is one of the six commandments to the churches according to Matt 25:31.

 

That is not contradictory to my post and it is true. But the fact that the Jews were generally healthier and less affected had a bit to do with it.

Many in europe that were non Jews kept windows closed and did not bathe!

 

I see Free Will as an evolved state of mind.

It made its first appearance when the Response to Fear appeared inthe form that offered us a choice.
We could fight or flee.

But for a split second, we were given the opportunity to "think" about which choice to make.
This was an amazing blessing.

Proverbs 2:5
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

Stimulus/Response life is unconcious and animals, een man, physically reacts to sensory data flowing into his mind.
But, at some early point, it was like we were asked which road we would klike to travel into the immediate future, one just aboutto unfold totally dependent upon our next choice.

We were free to decide
We were actually "willing" the future, at least in regard to our own future..

The consequences must have been that we made many good choices.
The time alotted to the short pause must have extended into the present total Consciousness because we patiently did not react to fear, but we pondered the situations for longer times and, indeed, gained the Knowledge of this God which is external to our Consciousness.

We found ourselves too be observant of the situations that could confront us, and we worked out solutions well in advance of meeting them.

None of this opposes the separate idea, that we have a Subconcsious mind, too.

But what did occur to our Conscious mind is that some fearful stiuations originate with behaviors we exercised previously.
It did occur to us, at some point, that our desires and urges, needs, wants, demands, drives, got us into a hot spot later.

It was then that we began looking inside and thought of preventiin as a possible Reaction to the Fear of this lmighty god, Reality and His Facts-of-life.