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Fad Or The Future? Robot-Made Burgers Wow The Crowds In San Francisco

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Professor Peabody, Aug 27, 2018.

Page 7 of 11
  1. Ctrl

    Ctrl Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm moving a step beyond the practical applications of the now into a future where management of resources is handled by machines. Where some well intended bill gets government producing basic needs to any in need, and growing from there. This is a wacky hypothetical that has an end game, just have to take a quantum leap with me.
     
    Ctrl, Aug 28, 2018
    #151
  2. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Np, and you're right. Automation isn't the only factor which will be leading to fewer jobs and downward pressure on wages, and the half jobs being fully automated metric is only a projection for the next couple decades or so. Beyond that, and we could see many more jobs being automated, as you said, most of those jobs in the white are not safe over the long run. We really need to start preparing now by making sure our socioeconomic systems our set up to handle things as more automation hits the markets.

    I agree, employee owned corps probably wouldn't adequately address the overall lack of jobs, which is why,
    if we were only to implement a single solution I personally think that the Four-Phased Approach would be the best option.
    Though, there's really no reason why we would need to pick just one. Implementing several ideas concurrently may actually be the a good way to get the most bang for our buck.
    In summarizing the previous automation discussion and vote, that would essentially mean hitting all of the following points:
    • Giving employees more stake in the companies that they work for on the private sector side of things
    • Getting the government to hire displaced workers to provide for basic needs starting with infrastructure
    • Increasing the availability of good education and training to ensure that our workforce is ready skill-wise for the jobs of the future
    If we were to do all of that, jobs would exist in sufficient numbers,
    people would have the education and skills needed to do the jobs,
    and the jobs themselves through giving the employees more say would be adequate to meet their needs.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #152
  3. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    Lovely strawman, that.
    Since you are the once saying UBI will be the end game, how do YOU propose to support/feed the unemployed, other than 'tax the rich'.

    The 'rich' won't be getting 'rich' if the majority of the population are not working and just receiving UBI. You are looking at not only a societal collapse, but a monetary collapse, so UBI would be moot. More likely we'd be looking at a dog-eat-dog situation.
     
    Collateral Damage, Aug 28, 2018
    #153
  4. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Why won’t they? Would people with UBI not be buying things?
     
    Questerr, Aug 28, 2018
    #154
  5. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    Definition of UBI - Universal Basic Income. You know, like the low income groups currently spend a great deal of money? On the necessities only, with additional assistance. Would people be receiving assistance on top of the UBI? Does the UBI fluctuate based on the COL?
     
    Collateral Damage, Aug 28, 2018
    #155
  6. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank god, I do not. The change we have seen here is in fast food where we once saw basically teens, school kids working for the low wages, we now have adults doing it. I guess they need to try to feed themselves and their families? This change happened when most of our industry was offshored to get out of paying living wages to americans. So profits could be maxed out, for in these times, that is all that matters. Business no longer has one shred of expected social responsibility to their employees or to american society in general. The United States of Toxic Capitalism. The kind that destroys itself. Brought to you by our elites and the banks and big corporations that they own. And of course our wonderful anti american politicians in DC who will sell their souls just to keep their power in DC. And have, and will continue to do. As long as they can keep the nation divided into two warring tribes. Which seems to be easy to do. Idiots are easily herded.
     
    One Mind, Aug 28, 2018
    #156
  7. John Sample

    John Sample Well-Known Member

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    But can you have it your way? Hold the mayo, extra pickle, and a dab of green chile?
     
    John Sample, Aug 28, 2018
    #157
  8. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    But rather than looking forward to such a future, why not act now instead to make sure our socioeconomic system is prepared for it?
    If we know that our current path is going to lead to eventual disaster, and that there is a better way things could be set up, why wait?
    Why intentionally procrastinate until a disaster occurs only to fix things afterwards? Why not act now and avoid the disaster altogether?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #158
  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Good question.

    My personal view is that we should implement an incremental four phase approach as seen below.
    I am also of the opinion that we shouldn't wait for all the jobs to be automated before starting.
    We should be acting now.

    BTW, there was actually a vote on this subject a little while back. That four phased approach got third place.
    First place was shifting towards Employee-Owned Corporations / Mondragon Co-op Model followed by Making All Employees Holders of Company Stock in second.
    There were also a lot of ideas suggested regarding making sure that people got the education and training needed to be prepared for future jobs.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #159
  10. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    Interesting.

    I hope I'm not alive to see it. I hope my descendants, who have worked so hard to keep this country free and it's people independent, aren't here to see it happen either.
     
    Collateral Damage, Aug 28, 2018
    #160
  11. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm only predicting what the effects of automation will have on jobs and providing a solution for those who are effected.
     
    flyboy56, Aug 28, 2018
    #161
  12. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    In bold above it is not correct...technology and costs and quality drive the business models. If labor was $1/hour it is unlikely we would have much automation, but as the cost of labor increases, and problems associated with labor increases, this drives more automation...
     
    OldManOnFire, Aug 28, 2018
    #162
  13. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Automation is primarily used in situations that are high volume and repetitive with static designs. Sure we can do some automation in a McDonald's but this same scenario probably won't work in Applebee's. Things that can be automated also need design of the automation, production of the automation, and installation/training of the automation, and maintenance of the automation which all are opportunities for employment and careers. IMO automation is a complement to labor and not a replacement...
     
    OldManOnFire, Aug 28, 2018
    #163
  14. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Because you don't own the robots.
    If you did own the robots, or if a sufficient amount of the goods and services produced by the existing robots,
    were sent your way, then yeah... you wouldn't need to work, but there is no guarantee that automation of jobs will lead to that.
    It is the ideal though, we could make it happen if we wanted, in which case, I imagine that work would become a sort of new leisure activity that people pay for the opportunity to partake in. But again, we can't just assume that things will turn out that way, especially not without a change to our current socioeconomic structures.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #164
  15. Ctrl

    Ctrl Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In this utopian vision, government itself is largely automated. Not leadership, but "the machine". Leaders and representatives are still elected, and serve for greater purpose. You "own" the robots as much as you "own" the Whitehouse. They are self replicating when necessary and self repairing. To make it clean, everyone has 4 years compulsory service in some service capacity, but the rest of your life is free to spend as you wish. With me?
     
    Ctrl, Aug 28, 2018
    #165
  16. SkullKrusher

    SkullKrusher Banned

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    As soon as the robots start being directed to clean up all the poop on the streets of San Francisco, their AI capacity will reason its time for a revolution to end humanity.
     
    SkullKrusher, Aug 28, 2018
    #166
  17. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Not that I agree with the get paid to do nothing approach...; my preferred solution is something more along the lines of implementing a WPA 2.0-like program,
    but in the past, i.e. during the agricultural and industrial revolutions, people at least had a pretty good idea of what fields they'd be going into as
    the older jobs were being automated out of existence, and those new jobs even tended to pay better on average than the ones lost.

    With the more recent information revolution though, while there were still a few new higher paying jobs created,
    most of the displaced ended up getting pushed into lower-paying service sector work (Walmart, Fast-food, etc.).

    And now, with this latest wave of tech, and those service-sector jobs next on the automation chopping block,
    one has to ask... what field will rise to absorb all of the people who are being and or are about to be displaced this time?
    And how many jobs will such a new field provide vs the ones which will be lost? What will the pay be compared to current jobs?
    And if these new jobs require advanced education and or training, how will those who are displaced afford this education and training?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #167
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We can always do better.

    Education is a place that should get major focus.

    It's always a challenge, as it's incredibly difficult to recruit serious thinkers for positions in higher education when the private sector is ready to make such attractive offers - both in compensation and job definition.
     
    WillReadmore, Aug 28, 2018
    #168
    Meta777 likes this.
  19. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    What might happen is that government doesn't do anything to help out the unemployed masses. The people will move into hoovervilles and shanty towns. The infestation will be dealt with by air-dropping rat poison, nerve agents, and other poisons onto the heads of the unwashed millions to kill them off.

    We can only provide a living to a few people. The rest, and I mean the poor going first, have to die. There are limited resources and we can't support a large population.
     
    wgabrie, Aug 28, 2018
    #169
  20. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    We'll have problems even well before that point.

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #170
  21. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    The way I see things, we ought to figure out how we get to that point first before worrying too much about what we should do far beyond it.
    Because its pretty unlikely that a situation where everyone's needs are met is going to come about without some sort of push for some sort of specific change. Agreed?

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #171
  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    If you ask me, I think an incremental four phase approach that takes the displaced and puts them to work providing various societal needs,
    perhaps through a WPA 2.0 or similar program, is better than a UBI. And there are of course a whole list of other ideas we can consider.
    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #172
  23. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Why's that? Is it the prospect of mass automation-induced job-loss that you're afraid of?
    If so, then please consider that we as a nation are not powerless against such a disaster.
    If we act, we can prevent it. Several potential solutions have been put forward.

    Or we're you saying that you are afraid of people getting education and training,
    worker owned corporations, and or hiring displaced workers to fix infrastructure and stuff etc....
    And if so, why the heck would you be afraid of any of that???

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 28, 2018
    #173
  24. Ctrl

    Ctrl Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I dont much care about the minutia involved in getting there. I am suggesting only that it is feasible, and sounds pretty neat. The debate I would like to have comes afterwards. Once we are there. Can we make this little science fiction leap to a day not far where this could be?

    We are in a sort of star trek age where we have replicators, and largely self sustaining machinery. Money no longer matters. Everyone is of equal class. We can 3d print 3d printers, and print robots that design and make robots etc out of some sort of recyclable renewable materials. We honestly arent too far off from the ability.

    https://3dprint.com/63229/dollo-3d-printer-prints-itself/
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
    Ctrl, Aug 28, 2018
    #174
  25. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    I don't 'fear' it. Dependence on the government, regardless on what format that may be in the future, goes against my grain. If that is who our future generations have to rely on, then what the existing generations have made a point of teaching their kids, independence and the understanding of what 'free' truly means, is moot. Reliance on any one hand to supply something (as adults) is not how I, and those around me, were raised. Why would I view that as a good thing?

    If everybody ends up with the same things, regardless of their input into the societal pool, you will get a bunch of drones with no critical thinking skills, creativity, or enthusiasm. I don't view that as a good thing.

    I find it interesting that you use the word 'fear' and 'afraid'. Why? Can people not like a theory without being 'afraid'?
     
    Collateral Damage, Aug 28, 2018
    #175
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