German investigation on MH-17 concludes plane shot down by Russian terrorists.

and you of course have no evidence.

 

You've got to be kidding me. Right? That was a joke?

"Germany's BND foreign intelligence agency has concluded that pro-Russian rebels are to blame for the downing of Malaysia Airline MH17 in Ukraine in July."

So do you want to try and explain how you some how got "private militias fighting the rebels" out of that? Or would you rather we just try and forget you said that?

 

And the actual evidence you have to support this comes in the form of?

 

When I posted earlier, I had read 2 accounts of this and the quotes were different and one version could have a different interpretation.

I've since looked around more and Schindler is placing blame on the rebels. At the same time, the report does say Kiev manipulated photographic evidence, and it's photographic and satellite imagery that this report is supposedly based on.

The obvious question is why would an innocent party manipulate evidence. Then, equally obvious is that we have conclusions reached with evidence mentioned but not presented.

One thing, if you believe the report, is made clear. Russia had nothing to do with this; the missile came from the Ukrainians regardless of who fired it.

 

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/20/germans-clear-russia-in-mh-17-case/

By Robert Parry

The West’s case blaming Russia for the shoot-down of a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine last July appears to be crumbling as the German foreign intelligence agency has concluded that the anti-aircraft missile battery involved came from a Ukrainian military base, according to a report by the German newsmagazine Der Spiegel.

The Obama administration and other Western governments have pointed the finger of blame at Russia for supposedly supplying a sophisticated BUK missile system to ethnic Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine who then allegedly used the weapon on July 17 to shoot down what they thought was a Ukrainian military plane but turned out to be Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing all 298 people onboard.

The Russians denied providing the rebels with the weapon and the rebels denied shooting down the plane. But the tragedy gave the U.S. State Department the emotional leverage to get the European Union to impose tougher economic sanctions on Russia, touching off a trade war that has edged Europe toward a new recession.

But now the narrative has shifted. The German intelligence agency, the Bundesnachrichtendienst or BND, asserted that while it believes rebels were responsible for shooting down the plane, they supposedly did so with an anti-aircraft battery captured from a Ukrainian military base, according to Der Spiegel.

The BND also concluded that photos supplied by the Ukrainian government about the MH-17 tragedy “have been manipulated,” Der Spiegel reported. And, the BND disputed Russian government claims that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to MH-17 just before it crashed, the magazine said.

None of the BND’s evidence to support its conclusions has been made public, but Der Spiegel said the information given to members of a parliamentary committee on Oct. 8 included satellite images and other photography. What’s less clear, however, is how the BND could determine the precise command-and-control of the anti-aircraft missile system amid the chaotic military situation that existed in eastern Ukraine last July.

At the time, the Ukrainian army and allied militias were mounting an offensive against ethnic Russian rebels who were resisting a U.S.-backed coup regime that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych last February, touching off what quickly became a nasty civil war.

Spearheading Kiev’s summer offensive were pro-government militias, some of which were filled with neo-Nazi extremists and financed by Ukrainian billionaire oligarchs including Ihor Kolomoisky, who had been appointed governor of the southeastern Dnipropetrovsk Region. The ethnic Russian rebels also were a disorganized lot with poor command and control.

Rushing to Anti-Russian Judgment

Yet, the Obama administration was quick to pin the blame for the MH-17 crash on Russia and the rebels. Just three days after the crash, Secretary of State John Kerry went on all five Sunday talk shows fingering Russia and the rebels and citing evidence provided by the Ukrainian government through social media.

On NBC’s “Meet the Press,” David Gregory asked, “Are you bottom-lining here that Russia provided the weapon?”

Kerry: “There’s a story today confirming that, but we have not within the Administration made a determination. But it’s pretty clear when – there’s a build-up of extraordinary circumstantial evidence. I’m a former prosecutor. I’ve tried cases on circumstantial evidence; it’s powerful here.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Kerry’s Latest Reckless Rush to Judgment.”]

But some U.S. intelligence analysts offered conflicting assessments. After Kerry’s TV round-robin, the Los Angeles Times reported on a U.S. intelligence briefing given to several mainstream U.S. news outlets. The story said, “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Mystery of a Ukrainian ‘Defector,’”]

A source who was briefed by U.S. intelligence analysts told me that some analysts had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appeared Ukrainian government forces were to blame, although possibly a unit operating outside the direct command of Ukraine’s top officials.

The source specifically said the U.S. intelligence evidence did not implicate Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk but rather suggested an extremist element of the armed forces funded by one of Ukraine’s oligarchs.

Regarding the alleged Russian role, the source said the U.S. analysts had found no evidence that the Russian government had given the rebels a BUK missile system, which would be capable of shooting down a commercial airliner at 33,000 feet, the altitude of MH-17.

According to the Der Spiegel story, the BND reached the same conclusion, that Russia was not the source of the missile battery. But the BND and these U.S. analysts apparently differ on who they suspect fired the fateful missile. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Flight 17 Shoot-down Scenario Shifts”and “Was Putin Targeted for Mid-air Assassination?”]

What has been curious about the handling of the MH-17 case is the failure of the Obama administration and other Western governments to present whatever evidence they have, whether satellite, electronic or telephonic so the investigation can proceed more quickly in determining who was responsible.

By withholding this evidence for nearly three months, the West has benefited from keeping alive the anti-Russian propaganda – blaming Moscow and President Vladimir Putin for the tragedy – but the secrecy has given the perpetrators time to scatter and cover their tracks.

With Der Spiegel’s report, it’s now clearer why the delay and the secrecy. If the missile responsible for bringing down MH-17 came from a Ukrainian military base – not from the Russian government – then a very potent anti-Putin propaganda theme would be neutralized. More attention also would focus on whether the missile battery was really under the control of a rebel unit, as the BND suggests – or was in the hands of anti-rebel extremists.

 

And I know exactly which report it was that you read that gave you this wrong impression. The RT article that covered this refused to acknowledge the reports conclusion that pro-Russian rebels were responsible and instead referred to them as "local militia groups". Which you probably immediately thought what Jeannette is trying to spin. That it was one of those national guard volunteer battalions the Kiev is using.

Iv also been looking up source after source trying to pin down your reference to Kiev falsifying information. Once again RT is very vague on its description as to what it is that Kiev manipulated but it died try to spin it as though the entire investigation is based off that manipulated evidence. What I have found through searching multiple sites is no mention of any Kiev manipulated photographic or satellite evidence as you have suggested, but I did find a few articles that mentioned phone call recordings that Ukrainian intelligence handed over to Dutch officials a few days after the crime. These recordings apparently had conversations between Russian officials and military agents and rebel leaders regarding MH-17. The German investigation has concluded that these recordings were in fact manipulated in some way, though the scope and in what way has not yet been revealed. Why would they manipulate anything if they are innocent? Probably because a nation 20 times more powerful then them is slowly invading and taking over their country and there is basically no possible way they are going to be able to stop Russia if it decides to come out of the shadows and full on invade. They are quite obviously desperate for western support and protection and most likely took advantage of the incident to try and garner more support. Maybe not in the best taste of things to do, but hardly a crime or evidence of some sort of coverup/false flag attack. In fact of be more shocked if the Ukrainians didn't try and take advantage of the situation in the hopes of bringing in more western support.

Wether or not the report is accurate Russia is still NOT off the hooks yet. You're not the first to try and jump on this as proof that Russia is innocent but the report in no way concludes that. All it concluded is that the RUSSIAN BACKED REBELS are the ones that in fact shot down MH-17 and that they used a captured BUK system from a Ukrainian military installation. Although Russia did not supply the actual weapon device used in the incident there are still several things that could still come back to bite Russia in the ass. Who operated thus weapon? Who trained them? Was anyone supervising? Who gave the order (and no I'm not saying Putin did but it's completely possible that one of the many Russian military advisers aiding the rebels could have done so which would still make Russia as a whole culpable) If Russia wasn't supporting and aiding these rebels would they have even been able to capture the weapon or been in the area to use it? If Russia hadn't started this whole "revolution" bull crap this never would have even happened. There are still many possibilities and unanswered questions that could lead to Russia.

 

What reason did the rebels have?

 

Anyone got any articles linking irresponsible or negligent companies and states providing arms and civilian pacification equipment to abusive regimes worldwide.
I'm happy to throw the book at Russia for any negligence it has done and continues to do with arms sales as long as we have a library worth to chastise other countries for doing the same.

e.g. http://armsdealersontrial.wordpress.com/2014/07/10/breaking-news-prosecution-discontinued/
Get off the political horse and slam the whole lot of them. Money for death...Oh what a wonderful war!

 

Personally, I'm still not convinced a BUK brought the plane down. I'd like to see more of the kind of damage that occured in the cockpit area along the fuselage before dismissing the auto-cannon (is that the right term?) theory.

Anyway, back to this report. RIA Novosti ran the following piece about Kiev manipulating evidence. They do quote a small bit from Der Spiegel and are usually reliable in getting their quotes right.

So far, I can't find the report online, so all we've got are reports on the report. Maybe more will come out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://en.ria.ru/world/20141019/194...Agency-Chief-Says-Kiev-Falsified-Data-on.html

MOSCOW/BERLIN, October 19 (RIA Novosti) - Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has found that some of the evidence on the MH17 crash provided by Kiev had been falsified, Der Spiegel reported Sunday.

Photographic evidence provided by Ukraine on the crash had been manipulated and "there are details indicating this", the newspaper wrote, citing BND President Gerhard Schindler.

Schindler first presented a report on the MH17 crash, including satellite images and photographic evidence, to a parliamentary committee responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence on October 8, Der Spiegel wrote.

According to Schindler, Russian claims that the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers were also incorrect. The BND has found that the Donbas militia is responsible for shooting down the Malaysian Boeing using a Buk missile system, he stated, though no official evidence proving this claim has been made publicly available.

 

Putin wasn't even known yet when the wall came down!

 

The writing on the wall has been visible for a while, yet the denying and arguing goes on.
It is obvious to me from all I have been able to gather, is that the West was seeking a reason to provoke Putin. Thank God he saw that and kept his cool.

 

Absent the actual report, the Spiegel article is all we have to go on for this story.

~~~~~~~~~~~

http://m.spiegel.de/international/e...ction=devloc&q=German+mh17+report&v=133247963

After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.

Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.

 

Radius.

In theory. Yes. But an extremely professional crew.

Here start the fantasy. Each unit of BUK has a key card with a password that changes regularly. The radars which are designed to work with BUKs were on a training mission in ukrainian army. (the whole group of military was training knowing that rebels have no planes.

I haven't. I read the information from people who did.

The guys who prepared it were not journalists. It's an operation from the servics with a more military and secret approach. Secret services deal with the information and disinformation. It's their job. They have top professionals for that.

Agree. But there is never 100%. Anyway It's far more then any of the arguments of those who blame Putin

Of course not.

Sure thing.

1. Don't you see the similarity of conclusion which simulatenously appeared in the heads of so diffrent papers? 100% similarity. Which is very difficult to sell.
2. Let's compare it with a different malasian pllane which disappeared not far from a US military base. Did we have any brave conclusions those times? Or the problem to sell the paper exists only if the plane falls near Russia.

It's just a photo. Other papers were the same.

Even if it was shot down by UFO it would b a concern. The thing is that noone really cared for the reasons. It is all about PR, blames and public opinion. People were killed in order to make westerners a little more bloodthirsty.

 

About how! "The whole world knows ...". Very funny. The world does not need proof? You really make me laugh. This is the same news as the news of the Russian submarine in Swedish territorial waters. Can only cause laughter.
You did not try to think. 1 Why is silent BND? 2 Why Merkel silent? 3 Why is the UN silent? 4 Why is silent Dutch commission? 5 Why is silent Malaysia?....Try to think about. Maybe you'll get. (refresh one's memory of how much has been written about the "Russian trace" in the crash. So what? Now sadly silent.)
I never cease to be surprised - as many in the west lives stupid sheep .... Very funny news

 

Why were the flight recordings never made public? There is a big gaping hole right there.

I'd be very suspicious of anyone by the name "Schindler!"

why would the Ukrainian Government do such discrediting thing? Are they guilty and want to obfuscate the evidence?
In other words, they tinkered with the evidence and are guilty without trial!!

Yet, there were several eye witnesses who saw at least one jet near the passenger plane and also saw a fireball.

Very good! Here is the article about some German families suing the Ukraine Government:


Families of German MH17 victims to sue Ukraine: lawyer

BERLIN – Survivors of German victims of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 downed over Ukraine plan to sue the country and its president for manslaughter by negligence in 298 cases, the lawyer representing them said on Sunday.

Professor of aviation law Elmar Giemulla, who is representing three families of German victims, said that under international law Ukraine should have closed its air space if it could not guarantee the safety of flights.

“Each state is responsible for the security of its air space,” Giemulla said in a statement emailed to Reuters. “If it is not able to do so temporarily, it must close its air space. As that did not happen, Ukraine is liable for the damage.”

Bild am Sonntag Sunday mass newspaper quoted Giemulla as saying that by not closing its airspace, Ukraine had accepted that the lives of hundreds of innocent people would be “annihilated” and this was a violation of human rights.


http://mh17latestnews.com/families-of-german-mh17-victims-to-sue-ukraine-lawyer-4/

That could get interesting. I'm glad at least the Germans fight back. Someone did it and that someone should pay!

 

Not agreed -it is NOT the most intelligent conclusion. It is logical version ,,Separatists shot it down by mistake, thought the Ukrainian military plane,, but not deferent than several others logical versions for example:

The Ukrainian army shot down, by mistake during doctrines. (they so shot down the Russian passenger plane earlier)

The Ukrainian army shot down, by order of from Kiev that the international community recognized the Pro - Russian separatists as the terrorist organization such as of al-Qaeda, ISIS and in to the east Ukraine came army of NATO . (just remind -all know that the Kiev power ruled by Washington)
etc.

someone saw the russian main press say same in this picture

about Obama ?
If not , it's mean west press big promotion - lies and Russian press good - honest

 

The heck does this even mean

You know this is one of the most ridiculous sentences about Russians I saw in years. There is no merit to human ignorance that's all I can say... Man it's XXI freaking century and yet people are so ignorant about what's going on in other countries, that it is even painful to read.

Also it funny how news evolve.
1) There were Russians with their own BUK
2) There were separatists with Russian BUK
3) Now there are separatists with Ukrainian BUK

What next?

(btw I am deeply afraid that Putin will find this post and will throw me to Siberia and bury me in a hole, personaly...)

 

You can pack your things to Siberia, Vassily. You are already reported to KGB.

 

of cos you believe...otherwise your (Kiselev) narrative will get a huge hole

 

then pack again (when Hans take over?)

 

Right! So there is nothing left but to surrender to the West and to turn into the slaves of the slaves.

 

As I said in previous posts it's possible that they failed to identify the target properly.

 

It's possible only in theory. If the BUK launcher located the plane on 10 km at a speed of 1000 km, crew had less than 2 minutes in order to track, lock and shoot. They need to be superprofessionals for that. But if they were superprofessionals then there is question of why haven't they understood that there is only one plane in the region which can fly that high and as fast. And it is a civilian plane!!! And another question. Why were they there? I mean ukrainian army was rocketing center of Donetsk and Lugansk. If you have only 3 rockets (without having a special reloading machine) why don't you spend them protecting the leaders? Or protecting the airport which was used as a base and the transport planes tried to move people, machinery and ammunition in order to invade the cities? There is NO reason to shoot for the super professionals. Zero. If they were just the lucky bastards who stole the launcher from a base and decided to shoot around - they would not have the time to react or they need to be just lucky.

If the plane was shot not where it was but a little bit to the side of Russia, then everything would be in its place. The first suspect would be russians. The presence of weaponry would be not a reason for prove. Russia has SAMs against such planes. The information campaign was also counting on the ... Russia and Putin. Not the ukrainian rebels. So the problem of the executioner was that the plane was shot down not the way it should have been shot. But of course it looks too logical in order not to be called 'conspiracy'. Believing into a strange crew which is capable of everything but fails to identify civilian plane by its speed and height is much more acceptable for what is left of western consciousness.

 

Because they're morons.

 

It's not a secret that other nations besides Russia conduct this practice. The US and UK included. No one is saying they don't.