German investigation on MH-17 concludes plane shot down by Russian terrorists.

At best, the cause of the explosion is still unknown. If, then, the cause of the explosion is unknown till this day, how is it that it was used as a pretext for war with Spain? Because it was, as I said, a false flag event that was "distorted, misrepresented, exaggerated, or outright instigated in order to create a pretext for war", that's why. And, like I said, the only reason you are willing to entertain the truth is because it's been so long since it happened.

Yes, FDR instigated the attack. No, Japan is not a victim.

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore.
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies.
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang-Kai-Shek.
D. Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore.
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient.
F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet now in the Pacific in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands.
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil.
H. Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire.

http://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/McCollum_memorandum

So, tell me, if a foreign power had done something similar to the US, that is, place a crippling economic embargo on them while building up a military presence in their backyard, how do you think the US would have responded?

And since when is oil and other goods extracted by private industry the property of the state, to dispose of how it pleases? If I extract oil from the ground and I want to sell it to someone in Japan, who is the US government to tell me otherwise?

I stated a fact. Germany had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, yet FDR falsely implicated them in the attack. What's more, the US and Germany were already in a de facto state of war, so the declaration by Germany was nothing more than the recognition of a preexisting fact.

Everyone got rich, except the men who were killed or maimed in the war, you mean. And of course the US benefited economically from being the only country not devastated by the war. But it came at a great cost to humanity, which is more important than empty nationalist sentiments.

This wasn't "preparation" for anything, it was a plan to kill Americans and blame it on Cuba in order to justify a war. Your sophistic attempt to sanitize this psychotic plan is truly pathetic.

 

Might we get a real investigation after all?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/

The chief Dutch prosecutor investigating the MH17 downing in eastern Ukraine does not exclude the possibility that the aircraft might have been shot down from air, Der Spiegel reported. Intelligence to support this was presented by Moscow in July.

The chief investigator with the Dutch National Prosecutors' Office Fred Westerbeke said in an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel published on Monday that his team is open to the theory that another plane shot down the Malaysian airliner.

Following the downing of the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight in July that killed almost 300 people, Russia’s Defense Ministry released military monitoring data, which showed a Kiev military jet tracking the MH17 plane shortly before the crash. No explanation was given by Kiev as to why the military plane was flying so close to a passenger aircraft. Neither Ukraine, nor Western states have officially accepted such a possibility.

Westerbeke said that the Dutch investigators are preparing an official request for Moscow’s assistance since Russia is not part of the international investigation team. Westerbeke added that the investigators will specifically ask for the radar data suggesting that a Kiev military jet was flying near the passenger plane right before the catastrophe.

"Going by the intelligence available, it is my opinion that a shooting down by a surface to air missile remains the most likely scenario. But we are not closing our eyes to the possibility that things might have happened differently,” he elaborated.

The international probe led by the Dutch -as nearly two-thirds of the victims were from the Netherlands - has not yet established how the crash happened. A preliminary report issued in September said only that the plane crashed as a result of structural damage from outside.

READ MORE: MH17 broke up in mid-air due to external damage - Dutch preliminary report

Meanwhile, a report issued by the Dutch Safety Board on air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft nearby.

In regard to this report Westerbeke said that the statement was based on information that was available at the time suggesting Russia could have more information on the issue.

READ MORE: Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

Though the West has accused Eastern Ukrainian militia forces of shooting down the plane, it has provided only circumstantial evidence in support of such claims. Moscow has urged the US to release satellite images that prove its claims.

“This may be a coincidence, but the US satellite flew over Ukraine at exactly the same time when the Malaysian airliner crashed,” a Russian Defense ministry spokesman said in a July statement.

In his interview to the German media, Westerbeke also called on the US to release proof that supports its claims.

“We remain in contact with the United States in order to receive satellite photos,” he said.

READ MORE: 10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash

German’s foreign intelligence agency reportedly also believes that local militia shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, according to Der Spiegel. The media report claimed the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) president Gerhard Schindler provided “ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence,” to the Bundestag in early October.

However, the Dutch prosecutor stated that he is “not aware of the specific images in question”.

“The problem is that there are many different satellite images. Some can be found on the Internet, whereas others originate from foreign intelligence services.”

The Kiev government and Eastern Ukraine rebels have accused each other of shooting down the plane. Kiev released what it calls an intercepted conversation between rebel fighters in which they admit to downing a plane.

The Dutch prosecutor stated that “we will need evidence and more than a recorded phone call from the Internet or photos from the crash site. That's why we are considering several scenarios and not just one.”

The Dutch investigators have come under criticism especially from the relatives of the victims, who blame the probe for slow progress.

Westerbeke elaborated that it will take a long time to establish what really happened adding “we certainly need the whole of next year for work”.

“It’s not easy, but we can do it."

Westerbeke concluded that in the Netherlands 10 prosecutors are investigating the incident, as well as forensic experts and 80 policemen. While the Dutch also regularly hold meetings with colleagues from Malaysia, Australia and Ukraine.

 

They keep failing to explain how the defense forces were able to shot those 30MM holes into the cockpit from on the ground. Only the truly ignorant continue to believe that the defense militia did it after the Ukraine military jets were tracked flanking the commercial airliner and clear evidence of air to air gun ammo was used to disable the pilots.

 

Because there aren't any bullet holes. The holes that were made are more likely to have come from a missile and in fact both the R70 and the 9M38 are proximity detonated missiles which means that it will explode close to the target.

Also it doesn't make sense for an Su 25 to engage using it's gun.

 

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/10/20/germans-clear-russia-in-mh-17-case/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3SaF-bfhes
"Aviation Expert's Shocking Analysis of MH17 Crash! Cockpit Riddled by '30mm' Bullet Holes!"

Why was there no Buk missile trail?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYi9bWxPiSU

 

The obvious takeaway from the article I posted above is that the investigators have not considered the Russian evidence, but now are officially requesting Moscow to provide them with what it has.

This interview, coming so soon after the German intelligence review that is the basis of this thread, seems to be a response to that review.

I still see no mention of going to the crash site, even with the ceasefire in place.

 

The first link only corroborates my view.
The second doesn't prove that the fuselage was hit by cannon fire.
I've seen those photos before and they don't look like they've been hit by cannon fire but rather a fragmented missile.

The third doesn't prove anything either and if it was hit by an air to air missile then that too would have left a condensation trail particularly at that height.

Also firing the cannon at height exceeding 10,000ft would have been next to impossible not to mention both the distance and velocity of the GSH30 rounds would have factored into it.

 

Then Im glad you have changed your mind. You should have said so.
"By withholding this evidence for nearly three months, the West has benefited from keeping alive the anti-Russian propaganda – blaming Moscow and President Vladimir Putin for the tragedy – but the secrecy has given the perpetrators time to scatter and cover their tracks.

With Der Spiegel’s report, it’s now clearer why the delay and the secrecy. If the missile responsible for bringing down MH-17 came from a Ukrainian military base – not from the Russian government – then a very potent anti-Putin propaganda theme would be neutralized. More attention also would focus on whether the missile battery was really under the control of a rebel unit, as the BND suggests – or was in the hands of anti-rebel extremists."
I think I will go by the expert investigation instead of some random baseless opinion on a public forum. Thanks anyway.

 

No I didn't.

It's not baseless at all. It's impossible for an aircraft to accurately fire it's cannon at MH-17.

What's the matter; miffed because there's a great big hole in your theory?

 

Please try to use common sense. The US report who claim to have satellite pictures of the defense forces firing the rockets still refuses to release those images. Russia has proven that the US did have a satellite directly positioned over the site. Why is that?
Again do you think the Russian army would have trouble defeating the junta military forces that are unable to get the upper hand on a conglomeration of militia farmers.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/28/us-ukraine-crisis-mh-idUSKBN0IH15N20141028

 

evidence?

 

Exactly. The US has it why wont they present it. They have said they have imagery of the rebel forces firing those mysterious "no trail" Buk missiles. Why don't they give them to the Dutch?

 

For a start I wasn't writing about the motives behind MH-17.
What I was writing about was the fact MH-17 could not have been shot down by cannon fire and that it was a missile that brought it down.
This means that either the SU25 or the BUK system shot it down which is why I said that the first link that you gave me only served to corroborate my view.
So why don't you use some common sense?

Secondly the Donetsk militia aren't made exclusively of [or in large part] farmers particularly as one of biggest industries in the Donetsk is mining.

Thirdly if I had information which strongly indicated even if not conclusively proved that it was side x then the last thing I would do is release it to the public domain because of how it could be abused.

And finally I never accused Russia of firing these missiles at MH-17. In fact I don't believe that they did.

 

The experts disagree with you. Im no expert though. Here is the most advanced analysis of the situation I have come across.
Please review it and tell me what you think?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByibNV3SiUoobnpCVDduaHVORHM/edit?pli=1

 

Did you actually read this?
Because if anything it actually agrees with me.

 

Yes I read it a couple months ago. I totally agree with the positioning of the defense forces being out of range. What was not yet know was the information about the 2 military fighter jets flanking the commercial airliner that many witnesses finally were able to get out. Then after this report the pictures of the 30 MM gun fired into the cockpit came out. Im not trying to argue with you as you seem to think but I am saying that even if the Buk missile was launched it wasn't in the rebel territory. Agreed?
We'll talk if you are on tomorrow. I have sgetti sauce on and a salad to put together before dinner guests arrive,

 

No. Because if you read it properly you'd know that it was comparing positions as reported by newspapers.
Do you not think that a mobile AA system couldn't find more than three positions all of which are within firing range.
This analysis also points out that there's around 9 minutes to make a decision which is enough to make a decision even if it's not a good one.

And it clearly disproves the idea of 30mm cannon fire being used on page 18.
As I said before the photos of the damaged fuselage clearly shows missile damage and not cannon fire.

 

Haha... and what are you Nitwits doing?? "tolling"?

 

Exactly! And, IF you have read Udo Ulfkotte's latest statement about the lies journalists are pressured to write, then you know that the German BND gets its orders from the CIA.

Here is an inquiring website from RT about MH17:

10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

4. Why did Kiev deploy BUK missile systems on the edge of militia-controlled zones directly before the tragedy?

5. On the day of the crash Kiev intensified Kupol-M1 9S18 radar activity, key BUK system components. Why?

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?

7. Why was the military jet flying so close to a passenger plane?

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?

9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?

10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?

Read all here...
http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

I hope this will satisfy the western "tolls" and nitwits!!!

Almost forgot... here is Dr. Udo Ulfkotte:
http://truthseeker1313.com/2014/10/...tells-all-about-how-media-lies-to-the-public/

 

They're to be pitied .That is all they have left. Facts are always tripping up their quest for complete ignorance.

 

I didn't know Google Earth was a newspaper. Some of those were actually from the Russian satellite imagery also. The US had one directly above. Where are the pics they claim to have of the militia defense forces setting off those missiles?
Remember this report was written prior to access to the crash site. The cockpit was not examine till several weeks after the crash because the Kiev junta forces kept bombing the area to try to keep OSCE investigators out. It was only the rebels who were able to go in and take out the flight recorders but made the mistake of turning them over to Malaysia who really messed up and gave them the the UK. At that point anyone with half a brain knew anty info would be deleted as it has been done.

 

The analysis compared firing positions that both the BBC and the telegraph reported.
There are quite a few other places where the BUK could be placed so it really doesn't matter whether the satellite imagery is from Russia or google.

Which is why it's not a conclusive and accurate report.

There's only so much information that the flight recorder can actually give. It won't show things like the planes radar for example but will show the height and speed as well as which systems were engaged or disengaged.

So there really isn't much to delete in the first place.

 

The UK made sure it was not released even to Malaysia for a reason.

 

Which is what exactly?

You still haven't addressed the fact that the BUK didn't need to be in any positions in order to shoot down MH-17.
The fact is the analysis only investigated three positions which were described by the BBC and Telegraph.
But even then within those three positions they're still able to strike MH-17.

I doubt that the words "oh god we're going to die" really help determine the culprits because they wouldn't have been able to say much else.

 

just remind...

still the fact - separatists gave at once a black box with record. If they shoot down, this box would be destroyed...