Indonesia's Parliament votes to ban sex outside of marriage

huh? living in FL is wonderful. What I find ironic is I see license plates from Democrat voting states here during the winter.

 

Also possibly ironic that you seem unaware there are Republican voters in every state in the country... although hopefully fewer everyday, due to aging and/or mental incapacities...

 

True. They want to fornicate with a guy named Brandon!

 

86% of Indonesians are Muslim and their govt is a solid democracy (not, full, technically, but few are). Its safe to say this policy, while draconian, oppressive and unenforcible, is also popular. This just another in the long list of examples of democracy being necessarily limited for good reason- so we can't go 'full Indonesia.'

 

You mean like abortion? I agree, but dems are not in a position to criticize with clean hands.

 

Like abortion, like the recent case that just finished with oral arguments about a web designer.
I don't know what you're referring to with dems

 

Stone cold guess and as I addressed in post #5, likely we'll never know...

I really don't know of many places that would prefer to have have laws on the books penalizing people doing no harm to anybody...

How many examples have there been in this country where the politicians and public were in total conflict?

I give you recent example A - Kansas Abortion ballot measure.

 

lol, yeah right

 

we have crazy Christians too

"GOP Candidate Saying it's 'Totally Just' to Kill Gay People Resurfaces"

https://www.newsweek.com/gop-candid...t-kill-gay-people-resurfaces-oklahoma-1735846

 

Just about every place does that. Gun laws, drug laws, food and agriculture regulations... they all penalize way more people 'doing no harm' than they prevent from doing harm. In certain parts of the US, people have been SWATed for giving unpasteurized milk to someone who wants unpasteurized milk. If 'penalizing people doing no harm to anybody' was a consideration in any population, they wouldn't hardly have any laws at all. And while I personally think that's preferable, I seem to be in the tiny minority... every place is apparently happy to penalize 'people doing no harm to anybody' if they can perceive it to have even a tiny bit of public benefit. In an 86% Muslim population its highly likely they percieve enforcing 'sexual morality' as being to the public benefit. Thats why Sharia Law is a thing (not sure if its a thing in Indonesia, but its common enough in other Muslim countries).

 

nope, republican want to justify their own crazies by pointing to the Muslim crazies, how about we just condemn them all

 

Blind following is not restricted to religion.

On the topic of the baker and web designer, I feel its wrong to refuse service to anyone, whose tax dollars help pave the way to their business. I also believe it is unreasonable to demand they create something against their will.

 

I think they already do this throughout most of Southwest Asia (the Middle East)

Besides Bali all Indonesia has is volcanoes

 

What's authoritarian about California?

Their bikinis rival Rio and weed's legal.

 

It's no different than denying service because of the color of one's skin only now it's hidden behind religion.

 

I have the distinct feeling that case is going to turn out similar to the abortion decision, where the right "won" something that will turn out to backfire in their face in the end.

I never commented on any of the threads on this, and I may lose a bit of my liberal forum cred, but I can't see how you can force somebody to create something they don't support.

Woman should obviously be boycotted by ALL couples seeking that service, but I imagine she's going to "win" this case. Then when a liberal does something similar (like denying service to somebody wearing a MAGA cap), it'll be a massive RW freak out...

 

Bologna. They have great food and beautiful beaches as well and some of the kidest people in the world. You should educate yourself before throwing stones.

 

Indeed. Indonesia largely competes on price, but people will pay a bit extra to avoid the sort of hassles they imagine this might cause. There are PLENTY of nearby nations with cheap hotels & nice beaches.

Indonesia is slowly but surely eroding the democratic gains of the last 23(ish) years as powerful people who have never accepted them ally with religious groups. This is terrible news for Indonesia & the region more generally.

....and a few others. You just know there are peoplpe in the GOP who would do this if they could. I remember back in the 90s people were still being arrested in places like Georgia under 'anti-sodomy laws' that criminalized a wide variety of commonplace sexual activity. Was it Texas that fought the last stand to keep homosexuality illegal?

I suspect more than a few people feeling superior about their 'freedoms' have been more than happy to either support or give a pass to such laws.

 

Bold = 100%

Saw this article.... Get these numbers

SNIP
In 2019, a record 1.23 million Australian tourists visited Bali, according the Indonesia Institute, a Perth-based non-government organisation.

Compare that to 2021 - when just 51 foreign tourists visited the island for the entire year because of the pandemic, Statistica's records show.
ENDSNIP

https://www.yahoo.com/news/indonesias-sex-laws-could-mean-212802595.html

Yeah, scaring potential visitors sounds like a real winning economic strategy there.... if they were actually thinking economically....

 

For this law to work, someone must report sex to authorities. Would a western woman who is unmarried, going to Bali, and having sex with her boyfriend, report this to the local Indonesian authorities? I don't think so. Second, we only have reports from Reuters, CNN, and others on this law. We don't have the precise language of the law, translated into English to see how this law would be applied. I think if you search expats living in Indonesia about the law, that would also help. In a few days, there may be some YouTube videos of Expats living in Indonesia who may comment on this. That will provide a better picture.

 

In 2021, Indonesia still had major Covid Restrictions for tourists coming into the country. They began to open up in late 2021 and early 2022. So, you need some background on the numbers. And yes, that even included Australia here. So, 2020 and 2021 are pretty much outliers that have nothing to do with politics or government per se. Just a virus that was extremely contagious and transmissive if you were carrying the virus.

 

Maybe in America. Here in Australia our major news organizations have reporters in Indonesia or with expertise and contacts in Indonesia. We also have Indonesians living here and academics whose field of study is Indonesia & who speak bahasa. It is easy to get informed commentary on this issue from people with a good understanding.

The issue with laws like this isn't simply the precise wording, but what local authorities choose to do with them. People may not be ast risk of conviction, but even the thought that you might spend a day at a police station because some overzealous policeman or official decides you are breaking the law can be enough to turn people off going, especially when something like relationship status os so public. Additionally, stories of police in touristy places like Bali shaking down people for bribes are legion. A law like this gives another, even easier way to do that.

Expats will no doubt have access to lots of information, but they might also be inclined to think they will be OK because they are more familiar with how the place works. Potential tourists may not be so confident. It will hurt tourism, just a question of how much.

 

I know CNN is there and has an office there in Jakarta as well as the AP and UPI services. But I am not looking at the commentary and my suspicion is that it is much like when the new immigration laws in the Philippines came out. There was a lot of hoopla about whether or not foreigners would be allowed to extend their visa stay beyond the initial 30 days. A few did the doom and gloom, including a few Aussies on the YT channel in the beginning until the Filipino legal eagles decided to go and state the true facts. That is what I am waiting for to confirm my suspicions. It may sound horrific, but even your own link in your OP said this was in the works for years and may not be as draconian as it appears in print. The adage is to believe nothing that you see and only half of what you read. And with any new law, especially a foreign law in a foreign country, the prudent thing is to wait and see. In my view, once the law becomes effective either by the President signing the bill or by simply grandfathered into law after 30 days of final passage, then we should look up the specific code and see what it exactly says.

Remember, in your own link, this same law also confirmed the six basic tenets of religion in Indonesia which includes Islam, Protestantism, Catholicism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism.

 

Oh, she's going to win all right but the point you make about being forced to "create" something is the same argument I hear on right wing radio and the problem I have is that her "creating" is simply a service she provides. She denies service based on what two people do that is nothing of her business and does not affect her or her business at all.
It's discrimination, pure and simple. The example of the MAGA hat is not the same thing at all. You can deny service because you don't like someone but you can't because they are gay.

 

I'm not the OP, so I haven't linked to anything.

I also don't care about CNN or wire services. To repeat, I live in Australia. We have VERY close links to Indonesia. I cannot tell you how many people I know who have visited there or worked there. I grew up with people who holidayed in Indonesia. I went to university with Indonesians, I had lecturers who spoke bahasa & had expertise in the topic and there are multiple Indonesians working in the locla office of my company (we have offices in Indonesia). One of my mates was married to an ethnic Indonesian. In just the last week I have talked with at least three people who have recently visited or lived there for years. Another friend is going there in a few weeks. Everyone here knows multiple people who have visited Indonesia or live(d) there. We aren't just relying on a few reporters, we have deep & wide contacts.

I have been watching Indonesian politics for 30+ years, so I have some sense of the broader context here. The specifics of the law concern me less than the trends that have brought it about, and they are not good. With the exception of Aceh & a few other pockets Islam in Indonesia has traditionally been fairly moderate. Decades of of influence from the Saudis & their vile brand of Islam combined with the willingess of certain political forces to attempt to use this movement for their own ends is steadily changing that. The secular philosophy you referred to in your last sentence is under seige from these extremists and the willingness of people in power to defend it is declining. This will not end well.