I see...so by making a very simple and universal statement I was actually seeking you out to demand proof of something I never even mentioned? Did I use my super mental power to communicate this to you and force your nasty replies? Damn...I had no idea I was so powerful.
Proof never comes to the one whose desire is never to believe, no matter what. What occurred in Zeitoun, Egypt in 1968 is irrefutable evidence of the supernatural. Govt officials and investigations could not explain the apparitions and finally concluded it was a true manifestation from unknown origins. Of course the hundreds of thousands of people from every religion as well as atheists knew better. It was clearly and obviously the Blessed Virgin Mary appearing on top of this cathedral on countless evenings over the course of two years. Accompanied by unknown lights, plumes of smoke, incense smells and white birds flying at dizzying speeds. Oddly enough, photographs from the first number of appearances did not develop. But later ones did. The Virgin was so bright that the photos are not of great clarity, yet, no expert doubts their authenticity. Also, a number of people saw nothing --- and yet, the vast majority all saw her when she appeared. Call it God’s ways of challenging the unbeliever ---- are you going to believe the tiny few not granted the gift to see or are you going to accept the word of tens of thousands there who all do see? Even wikipedia (notorious for downplaying Christian miracles) could not muster a counter argument. Nor did they want to say much, either. But one of their only explanations was “mass hysteria.” Mass hysteria? What is that? It has nothing to do with seeing something! Of course wiki did not dare suggest “mass hallucination” because science will tell you such a phenomenon does not really even exist, not when you are talking about a dozen or more eye witnesses, much less a hundred thousand. There must be 50 websites or more that report on this miracle, even the NYTimes had two articles from May and August of 1968 which I just happen to have copies. Note: this is but one of a thousand miracles the secular world chooses to ignore. https://churchpop.com/2016/03/15/witnessed-millions-unexplanable-apparition-lady-zeitoun/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun http://www.divinemysteries.info/our-lady-of-light-zeitoun-egypt-1968-1971/
Good. So now explain creation. Go ahead. The mental patients are the ones who worry about what spirit other people believe, but only if it's Christian. All others deities and those who believe in them get a pass.
I think that is the key point. No matter what you believe, if you already believe it, then you will latch on to anything as proof. The only thing that affects you the same way no matter how much faith you have in it is scientific reality. As far as I can tell, nobody actually investigated it. So all you have is a bunch of grainy photographs, and (admittedly a ton of) people claiming to see things. I would guess, most likely the first instance was an accident. Some way a light was set up made it look to someone like the virgin mary. After hearing about it, the people who ran the church realized what they had, and continued to do it from time to time. In other words, mostly a hoax. People can always be easily made to believe they saw things they didn't see. That's what magic shows are all about. Now, if there were a god, and it were trying to express itself through some sort of a miracle, why make it such a feeble one? If a god wanted to perform a miracle, just perform a miracle. Nothing is holding it back. Any of the other 'thousands' any better?
What's wrong with the scientific explanations? Moreover, no pass should be given to any deity, none of them have any evidence, so none should be believed in.
>> “As far as I can tell, nobody actually investigated it.” << Excerpts below from the two articles I linked alone reference your concern. (or is the response now to be, yeah, but who can trust the reporters?) Authorities wanted to rule out any pranks, hoaxes, or clever light shows. Police searched an area up to 15 miles out from the church, extensively, for any kind of device that might create such an effect. At one point they initiated a power blackout in the area so that nothing electrical could be possibly utilized to create these images. And the radiant Virgin Mary, her flying luminous doves, and the eerie heavenly lights continued to materialize just as brilliantly as ever after they stopped all electrical power to that large surrounding area. Huge crowds flocked to see her. Church officials, government officials, scientists, believers, and skeptics all saw her. The President of Egypt at the time, President Gamal Abdel Nasser, visited the site and saw the apparition. TV crews captured it on film. Newspapers took pictures and wrote stories about the phenomenon. The police did another thorough investigation, but came up short: they could find no natural or human explanation. The Egyptian government also did an investigation and, amazingly, publicly accepted the apparitions to be real as well. >> "I would guess, most likely the first instance was an accident. Some way a light was set up made it look to someone like the virgin mary. After hearing about it, the people who ran the church realized what they had, and continued to do it from time to time. In other words, mostly a hoax. People can always be easily made to believe they saw things they didn't see." << This is why I cannot take skeptics seriously when challenged with facts or with authority investigations or with hundreds of thousands of eye witnesses. Your whole suggested explanation here is rather insulting, imo. >> “Now, if there were a god, and it were trying to express itself through some sort of a miracle, why make it such a feeble one?” << Seriously, this is a defense? Because you know if there were a God he would never act in this manner? And that satisfies your inquiry? >> “No matter what you believe, if you already believe it, then you will latch on to anything as proof.” << Yes, and you just implicated yourself with that statement as far as I am concerned.
Well, you certainly can't trust a website named 'churchpop' or 'divine mysteries', and I don't see any substantiating reports from more reliable sources. I could easily imagine local police and authorities not wanting to ruin a good deal if this phenomenon was bringing in tourists and money. All that being said, I did see that earthquake light was suggested as a possible explanation. Or, it could be something we just haven't thought of. I'd be closer to impressed if this was still ongoing, but there is nothing here that is all that eye popping. Now, supposing it was something we couldn't explain, then there is nothing that says it isn't any number of other crazy explanations. Maybe it's aliens, maybe it's lizard people, or earthbound ghosts, or maybe it's some creature or apparition or energy we haven't even thought of yet. At the very best, it's something we can't explain. The equation you want is: funny lights = god. But at the very best, this is unexplainable, however, based on the 99.9999% of these types of things we have seen throughout history, it's either a natural phenomenon or a hoax. Again, there are no facts that say anything other than authorities (that might have been very biased) didn't come up with an explanation. And eye witnesses reports are next to meaningless, especially when they are pilgrims that desperately want to believe something, lots of people are very easy to fool. Defense isn't really the word. You are presenting something very very weak as proof of a spectacularly unlikely claim. This is just one more piece that doesn't add up as an act of a god. It doesn't seem logical that an all powerful being would do something so weak. It's power is literally unlimited, why such a faint whisper? If it wanted to make itself heard, why wouldn't it make itself heard? If it didn't want to be heard, then it wouldn't be heard. I admit that I wouldn't want a god to exist. That would be a really really horrible thing. Nonetheless, as I stated before, 99.9999% of the time when these 'miracles' are presented, they are either caused by a simple explanation or it's a hoax (the rest, haven't really been shown one way or the other). So, that should always be the null hypothesis, and you need very very strong evidence to move from that hypothesis.
>> “Well, you certainly can't trust a website named 'churchpop' or 'divine mysteries', and I don't see any substantiating reports from more reliable sources. I could easily imagine local police and authorities not wanting to ruin a good deal if this phenomenon was bringing in tourists and money.” << You are being so evasive and illusory with answers like this. The prime minister of Egypt saw the Virgin on the Cathedral. It is in many newspapers of the time. Police do not wait for the Virgin to appear and then shut down all electrical power in a 15 mile radius to see if she is still there, if they are just playing along. Give me a break. This went on for over two years! She appeared more than 30 times! And you think someone has this crazy technology back in 1968 that can fool the world and they kept it going for more than two years???? Not to mention they had Mary bowing to the crowd, holding an olive branch or cross, hovering over palm trees, etc. Such wonders. Honestly, this is beyond any sensibilities whatsoever. But if it is enough to convince you nothing happened, then my earlier point remains, i.e., that there will never be proof for those who are intent not to believe no matter what. >> “All that being said, I did see that earthquake light was suggested as a possible explanation. Or, it could be something we just haven't thought of. I'd be closer to impressed if this was still ongoing, but there is nothing here that is all that eye popping.” << Seriously? Gone fishing? Please do not use the lamest of “science” answers --- i.e., “it could be something we haven’t thought of or discovered yet.” Right, the very same answers we hear when they see a wooden or plaster staute of Mary weeping tears of blood. (so disheartening) >> “Now, supposing it was something we couldn't explain, then there is nothing that says it isn't any number of other crazy explanations. Maybe it's aliens, maybe it's lizard people, or earthbound ghosts, or maybe it's some creature or apparition or energy we haven't even thought of yet. At the very best, it's something we can't explain.” << Again, those kinds of answers are that of a scrambling opposition. IOW, you are assuming it is supernatural because there is no sign of any natural explanation, but then you STOP RIGHT THERE and do not dare suggest we could have any more indication who this supernatural being is or what they want of us. No, of course not – except, it is a being who very much resembles the Mother of Jesus Christ. She is on top of a Coptic Christian cathedral bowing down before the cross. She has appeared this way on 30 occasions. But you say, it is just as likely this supernatural being is playing tricks on the millions of people and wants them to think it is the Virgin Mary and Christianity. That is your position? This is so absurd . Never mind all the weeping statues are Christian, the Shroud of Turin is Christian, the incorruptible bodies of long dead saints are Christian, those with the wounds of Christ miraculously appearing on their hands and feet are Christian, the countless healings of incurables at Lourdes are Christian, and the evil spirit in possessed humans during exorcisms speaks evil against Mary and Jesus, not Buddha or Muhammad. And so on. >> “Again, there are no facts that say anything other than authorities (that might have been very biased) didn't come up with an explanation. And eye witnesses reports are next to meaningless, especially when they are pilgrims that desperately want to believe something, lots of people are very easy to fool.” << The authorities were all Muslim, I doubt they were biased, but we already covered the absurdity of police, govt investigators, the press, etc. all playing a ruse on the people. And eye witness reports are next to meaningless? How about half a million who saw the very same thing on 30 different occasions? How about the fact they were mostly Muslim, not Christian, but also atheists, agnostics, doctors, scientists, legal authorities, reporters, etc.? Still think they all are like if one person in the crowd says “Hey, look, there’s Mary!” that they all are going to turn and say “Oh, yeah, I see her too!” just so they do not want to be different? You really believe such explanations could be the least bit valid? >> “You are presenting something very very weak as proof of a spectacularly unlikely claim. This is just one more piece that doesn't add up as an act of a god. It doesn't seem logical that an all powerful being would do something so weak.” << Look, I will give you credit for attempting a rebuttal, but explanation or reasons such as this and those above --- well, I am sorry, all you are doing is making my case for me. Face it, unbelievers and skeptics have no answers as to how this could not be from God! And when they try it becomes apparent they do not, but only that they are very desperate to try to convince themselves or others there still is no empirical evidence for God. Sorry, you and they are wrong. >> “I admit that I wouldn't want a god to exist. That would be a really really horrible thing.” << Well that sentiment I could not begin to understand, but I appreciate your candidness. Not sure why anyone would not want to live forever in peace and joy and with their families and loved ones?
Ok, I have to admit, I start getting bored when these things get drawn out and repetitive, so I'm going to be relatively brief. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle So, here is one that had millions fooled. Do you take this as proof that in fact the hindu gods are real instead of the christian one? Despite the simple explanation, many still believe as you do that it is silly 'scientific' grasping at straws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia This is a phenomenon responsible for lots of miracles and apparitions, explains why people in zeitoun saw a virgin mary from a glowing orb, christ appearing on hands and feet and pumpkins. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science-debunks-miracle-of-weeping-madonna-1590530.html https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/bacteria-not-bleeding-statues/ http://www.nytimes.com/1995/04/08/w...crying-madonna-blood-and-many-many-tests.html Important quote here: http://www.slate.com/articles/healt..._water_an_indian_skeptic_debunks_miracle.html Here is one where the tears were sewage. And despite this being india (not a christian country) the guy that told them it was sewage is facing possible arrest. Interesting quote from this one. http://www.islamcan.com/miracles/index.shtml http://www.miraclesofislam.com/ Here are some muslim miracles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle This is a scam that has been going on for more than 40 years appearing over 10,000 times. Nothing to do with god. Also, in the 60's they had generators. If you have proof for god, then there is also at least proof of ghosts and aliens, and hindu gods... etc. That sounds great, but even if there were a god it would be highly unlikely. The fact that I am promised an evil in hell that isn't even comprehensible by the most evil human being to ever live sounds less nice. The fact that that same hell is guaranteed to you by the vast majority of religions in the world should be disconcerting to you too. What if the muslims are right? What if the amish are right? What if the hundreds of other cults in the world are right? Then, you are going to hell. And you have no way to determine if you are following the right cult. It's all chance. You have to be born to the right family in the right place at the right time. And aside from that tiny tiny fraction of lucky few people everyone get's infinite suffering. Now, imagine how evil an all powerful being who tortures almost everyone for all eternity through no fault of their own. Now imagine that being has absolute control over everything you can ever experience. Would you really want the most evil being possible with absolute control over everything to exist on the minuscule chance that you happened to fall into the right group of people that it decides to pamper? Also, consider christ didn't come around for thousands of years, and everyone born before that was screwed. So, potentially, the real religion, and real savior hasn't even been introduced to us, maybe it never will. So, yeah, I am glad that there is no reason to fear that such a thing exists.
I agree we have gone far enough with this Zeitoun investigation --- but the last point you made (above) is of a different matter. For Catholicism to be the truth, then by definition all others are greatly in error. Hinduism or Islam is as far off the rails as agnosticism. Either we have the great truths or we are horribly wrong. This is why we go to historical and empirical evidence, as well as reason, to say we have the proof we are right. As far as hell is concerned, I do not know what protestant religions might say you are going there, but the Catholic Church would never make that judgment upon any one. And they make that very clear in their councils and doctrines. They judge no one, even Pope Francis said 1) who am I to judge?, and 2) any many can be allowed into heaven even atheists. God is the only judge and merciful at that. Your “how could a loving God confine a soul to eternal hell” is the one question and mystery mankind can never know this side of the grave. I am sure that was very much God’s intention for us not to know these mysteries for our best purposes as we live through our trials. Scripture does say man cannot even begin to imagine what heaven is like --- should it not follow that man cannot begin to imagine what hell is all about either? My point is this: For those of us who are certain we have been given enough evidence and divine truths on the reality of eternal life and what God asks of us while living, we are extremely gratitude as that is enough. And just because we cannot conceive of a hell for fallen souls, we cannot use that excuse for us to turn our backs on God and all that we do know or has been revealed. That would be the sin of pride for believers and of great risk. (imo)
I can't imagine how hinduism or islam is any more off the rails than catholicism. When it comes to evidence, the evidence for all three, and for any other pseudo scientific belief seems about equal which is: if you squint hard enough and really want to believe in a conclusion you have already drawn before hand, then maybe there's a tiny bit, but nothing in a remotely scientific manner. And there are huge problems many of which are unsolvable with the concept itself. Lot's to say here, but briefly, if there is a hell at all, then god cannot be in any possible manner, merciful. To even think of such a thing requires a certain amount of evil. To actually create it is approaching some of the more evil beings that exist on this planet. To actually condemn anybody to it would require more evil than exists on this planet. But, we don't even need a hell. Any god that exists has to be at least as evil as all evil that has ever existed. That means that we don't even know the limits of it's ability to do evil. All evidence in this life indicates that it has no difficulty whatsoever meeting out terrible suffering arbitrarily. We couldn't even imagine the limits of evil that it might enjoy visiting upon us in the next. It also seems to have no interest in providing any special treatment to any religious group or philosophy in this life, so no reason it should do so in the next. We cannot begin to imagine because it is irreconcilable. To argue that we just can't imagine, is actually a possible argument, however, if we are going to make that argument, then there is no limit to the arguments we can make. So all beliefs that exist, and all beliefs that nobody has even thought of become equally likely, and we can no longer make any judgments about reality at all. Catholicism becomes just another idea on equal footing with infinite other ideas. Muslims are certain enough to blow themselves up for their beliefs. Wars have been fought, lives have been ruined over feelings, it is a very bad tool for determining reality.
>> “I can't imagine how hinduism or islam is any more off the rails than catholicism. When it comes to evidence, the evidence for all three, and for any other pseudo scientific belief seems about equal which is: if you squint hard enough and really want to believe in a conclusion you have already drawn before hand, then maybe there's a tiny bit, but nothing in a remotely scientific manner.” << Well that may be true for Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Confuscionism, et al., but not so with the Catholic faith. There are many miracles and examples of empirical evidence that remains unexplained by science or medicine in my opinion and the opinions of countless church officials and legal authorities over the years. No, I will not lay out more examples at this time but I surely can and may in a top post. The point being, not only does the observable history since Jesus prove an extraordinary presence or movement that has influenced and changed the history for the entire world, but, again, the inexplicable manifestations strongly validate the claims and teachings as well. (imo) >> “Lot's to say here, but briefly, if there is a hell at all, then god cannot be in any possible manner, merciful. To even think of such a thing requires a certain amount of evil. To actually create it is approaching some of the more evil beings that exist on this planet. To actually condemn anybody to it would require more evil than exists on this planet. But, we don't even need a hell. Any god that exists has to be at least as evil as all evil that has ever existed. That means that we don't even know the limits of it's ability to do evil. All evidence in this life indicates that it has no difficulty whatsoever meeting out terrible suffering arbitrarily.” << Yes, I get this being, actually, the one and only point or argument that is most difficult to satisfy the non-Christian with an answer. And even though I gave you why this mystery will not and cannot bother me at all, I know it does not satisfy you. But what I am more curious about is this: Does the fact you think you understand what hell is, is that enough for you to hold God accountable for it, or is it possible you may be wrong, but do not care if you are wrong? In other words, someone who truly studies God and desires God finds out so many remarkable truths about who God is, what our purpose is here in life, and what may be in heaven or so many of us --- it becomes the only fascinating thing worth pursuing. Also, when one considers that God asks so little of us in return it becomes an incredible hope and joy. But because there is a hell, you would tell God to take a hike, you want nothing to do with Him? Seriously? Even knowing you may be dead wrong about hell?... even knowing you are giving up the glorious opportunity to live forever in peace and joy with those you love? ….even knowing you one day will die and enter into an afterlife totally oblivious to what may be, and totally unprepared to meet the one who created you? Sorry, God has revealed Himself and his promises and His requests and His incredible gift of mercy. Do not put God to the test, accept this wondrous gift. >> “We cannot begin to imagine because it is irreconcilable.” << No, it is not irreconcilable… but then, we already discussed that above. I know enough, and in that I could never ever turn my back on it. >> “To argue that we just can't imagine, is actually a possible argument, however, if we are going to make that argument, then there is no limit to the arguments we can make.” << Yes, there are limits, if one adopts logic and reason. Again, Catholicism / Christianity bears the empirical evidence which validates the teachings of Jesus Christ. The other religions fall utterly flat. And then you look at the charity and Christianity prevails once again. And when you look at the logic and reasons of all faiths, again, Christianity triumphs tremendously over all others, save for Judaism, which is truly very much of the same faith as Christianity, and surely the same G-d. >> “Muslims are certain enough to blow themselves up for their beliefs. Wars have been fought, lives have been ruined over feelings, it is a very bad tool for determining reality.” << Lots of religions and ideologies believe they are the sole holder of the great truths of this world and the next. They are all wrong. Only one can be right. Especially given the fact I contend that Christianity is the only one that can provide empirical evidence for its God, the others have virtually nothing. So little that if some minor manifestation occurred of what appeared to be supernatural origin, I would more likely to call it demonic than of God.because there is no real message that accompanies it or no great fruits as a result. (but I also am not speaking dogmatically, since God can do as He pleases and He may give them glimpses of hope via signs, too.) “If Christianity is false, it is of no importance. But if it is true, it is of the most extreme importance. What Christianity cannot be is moderately important.” –C.S. Lewis
So IOW, just believe what is contrary to all experience, history, and logic because there may be something we don't know. The history of Christianity starting from the origin with the Hebrews and even before, is that religion has had to back down point-by-point as science advanced. Yet we still have those who continue to cling. I'll go with the science and logic. And yes, I explored spirituality deeply for years and had many profound spiritual experiences that many Christians long for. But upon reflection after years of it all, I understand them and how the activity of mind can lead us into fantasies and myths.
They could all be wrong which doesn't negate the existence of God. The history of the church is lust for money and power. They had their own armies. The main body of study at a seminary is business not theology. God exists not because of religion but in spite of it. And he's not what most people envision IMO. And The One or The Source or The Creator are better names than God. No worship required. there's no judgment, no hell and no punishment.
Yes, and perfection cannot give rise to imperfection. Shall we believe perfection would create imperfectly? If so, that "perfection" is capable of imperfection, which renders it imperfect.
We don't back down from anything, what science does is eliminate possibilities. Contrary to popular belief, the Bible is extremely vague on most things so as science advances we can eliminate possibilities of what the Bible means. Eventually, one day, science will give us the accurate story of the Bible.
Oh, but you already have. The Bible is extremely vague on most things so as science advances the positions and assertions of religionists can morph to accommodate some of it, resulting in a reversal of previous interpretations.
No, its vague because most of it is just context. If God were to tell the whole story of the creation of earth it would probably fill volumes, not a few paragraphs.
If God is perfect, why did he need anything? He would contain all things perfect and good within Himself. He would be perfect love, perfect intelligence, perfect power, the perfect essence of good and more. I believe these are your questions. I'll ask some now. Can you explain what perfection is... ...Or, can you only explain it within the parameters of your abilities? If the latter is true, then none of us can perfectly explain what perfection is. Even the most intelligent among us doesn't know everything. Our knowledge is incomplete and flawed. Logic will not suffice because our logic is flawed, if we are flawed.
It's possible to experience the Perfect State. It is a state of no wants, no needs, no expectations, no desires, no hopes or desires, intentions, beliefs, doubts, concerns, or knowledge. It's a state of "I am". More correctly, it is a state of "IS". Few people can receive this, let alone achieve it. Yet all are capable of it. Perfect love is unconditional love. Few Know this but all believe they know what it is. They don't. When you experience unconditional love, it doesn't come from beyond you. You discover, rather, that it is you. You are That.
Thank you oh most knowledgeable one. Now, can you grow someone a new spinal cord so they can walk again? lol omg, this is proof of my previous post.
The infinite is relative. To an ant in the middle of the Sahara, the desert is infinite. While there may well be boundaries, they are beyond our scope and ken.
We can't even know that with any certainty. Is it relative? If it is possible that it is, it is also possible it isn't. It's really complex. You have to be open to any possibility. If you have one place where you have an opinion, you could be wrong, because we simply can't know. Can't, as in unable, incapable, not refuse to.
