Iran appears to be on the verge of nuclear capability

pjohns · Jan 26, 2015

notme said: ↑

It took the US like 4 years to develop a nuke with computers weaker than an average cellphone that some random 3rd world African is able to buy. If Israel said in 2005 that they are about to make a nuclear bomb, than they obviously lied about it since it didn't happen in less than 4 years. Same thing of their 2006 remark, 2008, 2009 and 2011.

But it seems, that a heck of a lot of people will keep on believing the zionistic propaganda no matter how often and long they are proved to be untrue.
Click to expand...

Actual photographs, or course, do not amount to mere "propaganda." And whatever the case may have been in 2011, 2009, 2008, or 2006 is entirely irrelevant.

But please don't allow mere facts to intrude upon your anti-Israel opinion...

supaskip · Jan 26, 2015

pjohns said: ↑

There is a principle in logic known as the falsification principle. Basically, it just states that if you are going to make a claim, you should be able to show what would be needed in order to falsify that claim.

But you appear (as so many on the left do) to have adopted the Alfred E. Neuman approach--"What? Me worry?"--so nothing that might be said would be likely to persuade you of any threat...
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Nothing will be likely to persuade me of a threat? How about facts? That will do nicely. There aren't any good facts though. It's all hearsay. There is an assumption they will build a bomb because of minor actions in the past (not allowing inspectors in, breaking various resolutions, etc). Iran are not alone on this front though, and it doesn't prove they are doing anything in particular.

The chances of Iran actually getting a bomb created in my mind is slim to zero (based on it being watched like a hawk and past reactor problems for "energy" let alone a bomb), and if the slim chance does occur, they are being watched so closely, by Israel and us, that they won't be able to leave the room with it before some F-16's take it away from them for good. I'm quite happy for Israel to do what's necessary to protect themselves, and given their history I know that they will.

Suggesting Iran is a threat makes me chuckle.

What makes you think I'm on the left? I hate when my peers embarrass themselves that way. Just because I can understand something from Iran's POV, doesn't mean I agree with it.

Gilos · Jan 26, 2015

trout mask replica said: ↑

Neo Zionism feeds of antisemitism as did Zionism that preceded it. In fact the history of Zionism is replete with the corresponding desires central to imperialistic objectives and fascist ideology that this so often has entailed. It is unquestionably true that the interests of Zionists, imperialists and fascists have historically overlapped. The fact that the founders of Zionism were prepared to ally themselves with the most vicious of anti-Semites like Count Von Plehve who sponsored the worst anti-Jewish pogroms in Russia, is illustrative of Zionism's fascistic core.

Herzl and other Zionist leaders offered to help guarantee Tsarist interests in Palestine and to rid Eastern Europe and Russia of those "noxious and subversive Anarcho-Bolshevik Jews" – in other words, to get rid of the people who wanted to fight anti-Semitism rather than capitulate to it. Von Plehve agreed to finance the Zionist movement as a way of countering socialist opposition to the Tsar:

"The Jews have been joining the revolutionary parties. We were sympathetic to your Zionist movement as long as it worked toward emigration", he said. "You don’t have to justify the movement to me. You are preaching to a convert."

Zionist leaders like Herzl and Weizmann frequently compared their aims with the South African conception of a racially distinct colonizing population, and built close ties with South Africa. In his diaries, Herzl had explicitly drawn parallels between himself and the most prominent representative of British imperialism in South Africa, Cecil Rhodes:

"Naturally there are big differences between Cecil Rhodes and my humble self, the personal ones very much in my disfavor, but the objective ones greatly in favour of our [Zionist] movement."

The founding of a Zionist state is often justified as a response to the rise of fascism and to the horrors of the Nazi holocaust that exterminated six million Jews. But far from fighting against fascism, Zionists frequently collaborated with the fascists. In 1933, the Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazis:

"On the foundation of the new [Nazi] state which has established the principle of race, we wish to fit our community into the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible."

Later that year, the World Zionist Organization congress defeated a resolution for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43.

Leading Nazis like Joseph Goebbels wrote articles praising Zionism, and some Zionists received Nazi funds. A member of the Haganah, a Zionist militia in Palestine, delivered the following message to the German SS in 1937:

"Jewish nationalist circles…were very pleased with the radical German policy, since the strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable future the Jews could reckon upon numerical superiority over the Arabs."

The Zionist movement went so far as to oppose changes in the immigration laws of the U.S. and Western Europe, which would have permitted more Jews to find refuge in these countries. In 1938, David Ben-Gurion, who was to become the first prime minister of Israel, wrote:

"If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael [greater Israel], then I would opt for the second alternative."

This philosophy was put into practice. As the author Ralph Schoenman notes in The Hidden History of Zionism:

"Throughout the late thirties and forties, Jewish spokespersons in Europe cried out for help, for public campaigns, for organized resistance, for demonstrations to force the hand of allied governments – only to be met not merely by Zionist silence but by active Zionist sabotage of the meager efforts which were proposed or prepared in Great Britain and the United States."

The dirty secret of Zionist history is that Zionism was threatened by the Jews themselves. Defending the Jewish people from persecution meant organizing resistance to the regimes which menaced them. But these regimes embodied the imperial order which comprised the only social force willing or able to impose a settler colony on the Palestinian people. Hence, the Zionists needed the persecution of the Jews to persuade Jews to become colonizers afar, and they needed the persecutors to sponsor the enterprise.

Meanwhile, Jews in Palestine were given privileged status by the British colonial regime. The British helped to establish and train a Zionist militia, granted Jewish capital 90 percent of economic concessions, and paid Jews higher wages than Arabs for equal work. From the 1920s onward, the British government used the Jewish settlers to help suppress mass Arab demonstrations against landlessness and unemployment and for independence. The most sustained uprising by the Palestinians took place from 1936 to 1939, and included a general strike of several months, the withholding of taxes, civil disobedience and armed insurrection. The British responded by declaring martial law and instituting mass repression, relying heavily on Zionist forces. Hundreds of Palestinians were executed or assassinated, thousands were imprisoned, and thousands of homes were demolished.
Click to expand...

There was no way to "organizing resistance to the regimes which menaced them" because it wasnt the "regimes" it was the ppl, the normal day to day civilians that chased Jews, as always in your "survey" you forget to mention what the OTHER side did at the same time, in this report the Europeans are non existant, you wrote as if they posed no threat to Jews and Zionism was created out if zeal and not necessity which is ofc a hater's lie........just as in your other "reports" the Arabs are non existant.

Gilos · Jan 26, 2015

notme said: ↑

Stop looking like a freaking jester of the extremistic zionist lobby, by parroting what they got to say. The quote still doesn't say to wipe Israel of the map. The guy went out of his way to specifically mention it's about it's regime, and not it's citizens or the entire country.

And everybody knows Israel is out there to create a Jewish state to oppress their Arabs. It got apartheid written all over it. And it's emphasized that they ethnic cleanse across their borders for their Jews. Nothing to be liked about them warcrimes that the Israeli government commits.
Click to expand...

Now who's a jester ?

You support murder of innocent civilians by Palestinian terror but now it's "just" the regime, not the civilians.....

Gilos · Jan 26, 2015

trout mask replica said: ↑

Neo Zionism feeds of antisemitism as did Zionism that preceded it. In fact the history of Zionism is replete with the corresponding desires central to imperialistic objectives and fascist ideology that this so often has entailed. It is unquestionably true that the interests of Zionists, imperialists and fascists have historically overlapped. The fact that the founders of Zionism were prepared to ally themselves with the most vicious of anti-Semites like Count Von Plehve who sponsored the worst anti-Jewish pogroms in Russia, is illustrative of Zionism's fascistic core.

Herzl and other Zionist leaders offered to help guarantee Tsarist interests in Palestine and to rid Eastern Europe and Russia of those "noxious and subversive Anarcho-Bolshevik Jews" in other words, to get rid of the people who wanted to fight anti-Semitism rather than capitulate to it. Von Plehve agreed to finance the Zionist movement as a way of countering socialist opposition to the Tsar:

"The Jews have been joining the revolutionary parties. We were sympathetic to your Zionist movement as long as it worked toward emigration", he said. "You dont have to justify the movement to me. You are preaching to a convert."
Click to expand...

They had as much in common as German Liberals and Nazis - both wanting the best for Germany, a Jewish home away from Europe and Nazis (or Russian anti semite) not wanting Jews in Europe had same goal in that regard but one side was simply dealing with the illegal facist behaviour of another, more than that it wasnt just the Nazis but most of Europe's civilians, Zionism is a pragmatic movement, what would you have the Jews do ? protest in the streets ? write an angry colum ? Zionism dealed with racist Europe it didnt create it, your ancestors did.

trout mask replica said: ↑

Zionist leaders like Herzl and Weizmann frequently compared their aims with the South African conception of a racially distinct colonizing population, and built close ties with South Africa. In his diaries, Herzl had explicitly drawn parallels between himself and the most prominent representative of British imperialism in South Africa, Cecil Rhodes:

"Naturally there are big differences between Cecil Rhodes and my humble self, the personal ones very much in my disfavor, but the objective ones greatly in favour of our [Zionist] movement."
Click to expand...

You mean the British Imperial conquest of Africa, the British colonies, the British Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain made an offer to Herzel, it was a British offer and FYI Weizmann and Herzel were political rivals and didnt agree on Oganda, Weizmann refused to create a state anywhere but in Israel, he opposed Chamberlain propossal trhat Herzel presented in the 6th congress.

trout mask replica said: ↑

The founding of a Zionist state is often justified as a response to the rise of fascism and to the horrors of the Nazi holocaust that exterminated six million Jews. But far from fighting against fascism, Zionists frequently collaborated with the fascists. In 1933, the Zionist Federation of Germany sent a memorandum of support to the Nazis:

"On the foundation of the new [Nazi] state which has established the principle of race, we wish to fit our community into the total structure so that for us, too, in the sphere assigned to us, fruitful activity for the Fatherland is possible."

Later that year, the World Zionist Organization congress defeated a resolution for action against Hitler by a vote of 240 to 43.
Click to expand...

You mean the Jews didnt send 100 armed men to destroy Nazi Germany? wow...

Remind me what England did against the Nazis in 1933 and up till the start of the war ? what did anyone do ? but you figure the Jews could have fought them right ?

trout mask replica said: ↑

Leading Nazis like Joseph Goebbels wrote articles praising Zionism, and some Zionists received Nazi funds. A member of the Haganah, a Zionist militia in Palestine, delivered the following message to the German SS in 1937:

"Jewish nationalist circleswere very pleased with the radical German policy, since the strength of the Jewish population in Palestine would be so far increased thereby that in the foreseeable future the Jews could reckon upon numerical superiority over the Arabs."
Click to expand...

You realize I hope that the Nazis hated Jews regardless of Zionism, that they went along with racist laws and later Genocide regardless of Zionism, so Zionists could try to ship some Jews to Israel or not, the Nazis perescuted them regardless. you are smart enough to know that right ?

trout mask replica said: ↑

The Zionist movement went so far as to oppose changes in the immigration laws of the U.S. and Western Europe, which would have permitted more Jews to find refuge in these countries. In 1938, David Ben-Gurion, who was to become the first prime minister of Israel, wrote:

"If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael [greater Israel], then I would opt for the second alternative."
Click to expand...

Source ?
How did Jews in Israel or Eurpoe "change" laws in America ? where when Ben Gurion was supposed to say that ? source please.

trout mask replica said: ↑

This philosophy was put into practice. As the author Ralph Schoenman notes in The Hidden History of Zionism:

"Throughout the late thirties and forties, Jewish spokespersons in Europe cried out for help, for public campaigns, for organized resistance, for demonstrations to force the hand of allied governments only to be met not merely by Zionist silence but by active Zionist sabotage of the meager efforts which were proposed or prepared in Great Britain and the United States."

The dirty secret of Zionist history is that Zionism was threatened by the Jews themselves. Defending the Jewish people from persecution meant organizing resistance to the regimes which menaced them. But these regimes embodied the imperial order which comprised the only social force willing or able to impose a settler colony on the Palestinian people. Hence, the Zionists needed the persecution of the Jews to persuade Jews to become colonizers afar, and they needed the persecutors to sponsor the enterprise.
Click to expand...

Sure that's why Jews blew the Twin Towers, spread the plague and drink blood, that's where you part from your brain, let me know when you meet it again and we'll talk some more.

trout mask replica said: ↑

Meanwhile, Jews in Palestine were given privileged status by the British colonial regime. The British helped to establish and train a Zionist militia,
Click to expand...

Yes, its called "war effort", remember where you accused them of working with the Nazis, well this tiny line you wrote here is the fact that once the war started the Zionists FOUGHT the Nazis, bigots usually counter themselves, I had same expireince with Jack when he started talking about race and genetics.

trout mask replica said: ↑

granted Jewish capital 90 percent of economic concessions, and paid Jews higher wages than Arabs for equal work.
Click to expand...

Source ? or are you an eye witness ?

trout mask replica said: ↑

From the 1920s onward, the British government used the Jewish settlers to help suppress mass Arab demonstrations against landlessness and unemployment and for independence. The most sustained uprising by the Palestinians took place from 1936 to 1939, and included a general strike of several months, the withholding of taxes, civil disobedience and armed insurrection. The British responded by declaring martial law and instituting mass repression, relying heavily on Zionist forces. Hundreds of Palestinians were executed or assassinated, thousands were imprisoned, and thousands of homes were demolished.
Click to expand...

BS, the Arabs were the aggressors they murdered and the Brits suppressed them, there was no Jewish army just Hagans volenteers most were'nt even armed.

Borat · Jan 26, 2015

notme said: ↑

Stop looking like a freaking jester of the extremistic zionist lobby, by parroting what they got to say. The quote still doesn't say to wipe Israel of the map. The guy went out of his way to specifically mention it's about it's regime, and not it's citizens or the entire country.
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as zionist regime in Israel, just like there is no British regime in the UK or French regime in France. There are no regimes where people have choices and make them known at the polls.

Israel is a zionist country, every political party in Israel is zionist, every Israeli is a Zionist, wiping "zionist regime" off the map would take waging an all out war against the Jewish state with the objective of exterminating the Jewish state. Stop splitting hairs, it's frankly silly.

snakestretcher · Jan 26, 2015

Borat said: ↑

And we all know that there is no such thing as "zionist regime", it's like saying "British regime", Israel is a democracy and all its political parties are zionist parties.... We all know that "zionist regime" is the entire Jewish state of Israel and it's its existence that Islamonazis of the world want to terminate. As I said, you hair-splitting is not fooling anyone.
Click to expand...

You clearly know little or nothing of Zionism if you believe all Israel's political parties are Zionist.

snakestretcher · Jan 26, 2015

Borat said: ↑

Stop embarrassing yourself with this absurd childish nonsense, wordsmithing and hair splitting.....Their goal is no Jewish state in the Middle East, we all know that, including you. You are not fooling anyone, not a single person.
Click to expand...

You're fooling yourself; that's the irony. You're so convinced that every state in the region wants to annihilate Israel that simple facts become a mental block. Here's a hint; Israel really isn't that important and, frankly, those countries have far more pressing issues to contend with than bothering with a grubby little grease-stain called Israel.
If Israel is so innocent one might wonder why Hasbara pays people to infect the internet with pro-Israeli propaganda...
To quote Shakespeare; 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks...'

Gilos · Jan 26, 2015

snakestretcher said: ↑

You clearly know little or nothing of Zionism if you believe all Israel's political parties are Zionist.
Click to expand...

Vast majurity are, the Left parties that rival the Right wingers - Likud and Jewish Home - call themselvs the "Zionist Camp" in upcoming elections, because Zionism is about a Jewsih state - not about borders. you simply sank too deep with the propaganda to know what Zionism is. allow a Zionist from Zion to educate you.

MegadethFan · Jan 26, 2015

pjohns said: ↑

It appears that Iran is very nearly capable of not only devastating Israel, but also of doing great damage to the US.

As The Jerusalem Post has just noted:

Here is the link: Column one: Iran, Obama, Boehner and Benjamin Netanyahu - Opinion - Jerusalem Post
Click to expand...

Big whoop. The biggest threat to peace in the region has always been and continues to be the US.

Borat · Jan 26, 2015

snakestretcher said: ↑

You're fooling yourself; that's the irony. You're so convinced that every state in the region wants to annihilate Israel that simple facts become a mental block. Here's a hint; Israel really isn't that important and, frankly, those countries have far more pressing issues to contend with than bothering with a grubby little grease-stain called Israel.
If Israel is so innocent one might wonder why Hasbara pays people to infect the internet with pro-Israeli propaganda...
To quote Shakespeare; 'The lady doth protest too much, methinks...'
Click to expand...

Right...coming from you and your Israel obsessed ilk, it's actually ironic, aren't there more pressing issues in the UK that people like you are obsessed with Israel....just your ilk's generations of predecessors were obsessed with JOOS, despite the abundance of more pressing issues. Who are you kidding, no Israel is a wet dream of people like you, let alone the uneducated, fanatical and brainwashed Arab street.

For Topical Use Only · Jan 26, 2015

Borat said: ↑

There is no such thing as zionist regime in Israel, just like there is no British regime in the UK or French regime in France. There are no regimes where people have choices and make them known at the polls.

Israel is a zionist country, every political party in Israel is zionist, every Israeli is a Zionist, wiping "zionist regime" off the map would take waging an all out war against the Jewish state with the objective of exterminating the Jewish state. Stop splitting hairs, it's frankly silly.
Click to expand...

Zionism is a politcal ideology and not a Jewish identifier and the Torah Jews are anti-zionist. I'm guessing you drew the short straw at hasbara summer camp.

Silver Surfer · Jan 26, 2015

Come on Borat, you've been complaining too much about the United Kingdom. You've got a very friendly horse strategically positioned. He will race but it needs a good jockey. Perhaps Frankie Dettori ?

Ed Miliband - A Shameless Zionist In Our Midst
June 19, 2014 / Gilad Atzmon

Ed Miliband speech to Labour Friends of Israel

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/ed-miliband-a-shameless-zionist-in-our-midst.html

notme · Jan 26, 2015

pjohns said: ↑

Actual photographs, or course, do not amount to mere "propaganda." And whatever the case may have been in 2011, 2009, 2008, or 2006 is entirely irrelevant.
Click to expand...

I think it is very relevant that the same group of screamers are proved to be wrong over and over in the past.
There is are words for that: zero credibility.

pjohns said: ↑

But please don't allow mere facts to intrude upon your anti-Israel opinion...
Click to expand...

It's not an opinion but a mere fact that Israel got it wrong from 2006 to 2011.

Phoebe Bump · Jan 26, 2015

What I take from all that the Zionists are, at bottom, nihilists. What they really believe in is chaos and unending revolution. Some friends, eh?

notme · Jan 26, 2015

Gilos said: ↑

You support murder of innocent civilians by Palestinian terror but now it's "just" the regime, not the civilians.....
Click to expand...

Civilians who vote in governments that commit war crimes on their behalf, or joined the military institution that commits war crimes, or exploit war crimes,... are not innocent. Don't be silly.

notme · Jan 26, 2015

Borat said: ↑

There is no such thing as zionist regime in Israel
Click to expand...

But there is.

every political party in Israel is zionist, every Israeli is a Zionist
Click to expand...

Balad is a zionistic political party?

I think I stick by my previous quote of:
Stop looking like a freaking jester of the extremistic zionist lobby, by parroting what they got to say. The quote still doesn't say to wipe Israel of the map. The guy went out of his way to specifically mention it's about it's regime, and not it's citizens or the entire country.

Because the way you're ranting your lies, soon you'll be saying Iran is out there to exterminate all the Jews in the world.

notme · Jan 26, 2015

Borat said: ↑

just your ilk's generations of predecessors were obsessed with JOOS, despite the abundance of more pressing issues. Who are you kidding, no Israel is a wet dream of people like you, let alone the uneducated, fanatical and brainwashed Arab street.
Click to expand...

Oh here come the racist slurs....
duck and cover... lol

wolfin · Jan 26, 2015

Israel is not an innocent angel, but "soon you'll be saying Iran is out there to exterminate all the Jews in the world." has a grain of truth. It was good sarcasm, but Iran through its statements shows it would destroy Israel if it could. Extrapolate what Muslims do to other religions and elements of their own religion when given the chance. Observe events in Europe where Islamic people occupy large enclaves. I believe the only reason Iran doesn't want to exterminate all the Jews of the world is because it can't.

Mr_Truth · Jan 26, 2015

vino909 said: ↑

It's alway such a thrill to wake up to yet another thread laced with anti-semetic responses.
Click to expand...

I imagine you must be equally thrilled to see yet another warmongering thread that is anti-Iran and anti-American.

Mr_Truth · Jan 26, 2015

Phoebe Bump said: ↑

What I take from all that the Zionists are, at bottom, nihilists. What they really believe in is chaos and unending revolution. Some friends, eh?
Click to expand...

Einstein certainly did not have any trust in them:

https://archive.org/details/AlbertEinsteinLetterToTheNewYorkTimes.December41948

glloydd95 · Jan 26, 2015

notme said: ↑

Civilians who vote in governments that commit war crimes on their behalf, or joined the military institution that commits war crimes, or exploit war crimes,... are not innocent. Don't be silly.
Click to expand...

The problem with that mentality is that politicians often say one thing during the campaign then do another once they are in office. It isn't always possible to know what you are going to get out of an elected leader.

Speaking strictly of the United States here, I also believe that many a President Elect takes office with the best of intentions and then is burdened with debts owed to his larger funded supporters and faced with a government power structure that makes it difficult to the right thing.

Art_Allm · Jan 26, 2015

wolfin said: ↑

I believe the only reason Iran doesn't want to exterminate all the Jews of the world is because it can't.
Click to expand...

There are still about 25 000 Jews who live in Iran and are represented in the Iranian Parliament, and they are not afraid of being killed. These Jews call themselves Iranians of Jewish persuasion, their homeland is Iran, not Israel, because these people belong to the native population of Iran, and they do not want to be migrants in Palestine who live on the land of expelled Palestonias.

glloydd95 · Jan 26, 2015

supaskip said: ↑

Nothing will be likely to persuade me of a threat? How about facts? That will do nicely. There aren't any good facts though. It's all hearsay. There is an assumption they will build a bomb because of minor actions in the past (not allowing inspectors in, breaking various resolutions, etc). Iran are not alone on this front though, and it doesn't prove they are doing anything in particular.

The chances of Iran actually getting a bomb created in my mind is slim to zero (based on it being watched like a hawk and past reactor problems for "energy" let alone a bomb), and if the slim chance does occur, they are being watched so closely, by Israel and us, that they won't be able to leave the room with it before some F-16's take it away from them for good. I'm quite happy for Israel to do what's necessary to protect themselves, and given their history I know that they will.

Suggesting Iran is a threat makes me chuckle.

What makes you think I'm on the left? I hate when my peers embarrass themselves that way. Just because I can understand something from Iran's POV, doesn't mean I agree with it.
Click to expand...

What do you know about how nuclear bombs work that makes you believe the odds are against Iran building one or more of their own?

Let me tell you, a gun type atomic bomb is not difficult to build. The tricky thing is enriching your fissionable material to weapons grade. They already have the equipment and technology to do that I believe.

They don't need to produce a large amount of weapons grade plutonium. Just some Uranium-235. When they have that, all that is left is a delivery system.

I would not be surprised to find that they have several warheads and are just waiting for their missile development teams to catch up.

Mr_Truth · Jan 26, 2015

Art_Allm said: ↑

There are still about 25 000 Jews who live in Iran and are represented in the Iranian Parliament, and they are not afraid of being killed. These Jews call themselves Iranians of Jewish persuasion, their homeland is Iran, not Israel, because these people belong to the native population of Iran, and they do not want to be migrants in Palestine who live on the land of expelled Palestonias.

Click to expand...

You are correct - in Hebrew they are referred to as Mizrahim or Oriental Jews.

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