Jewish Chronicle forced to apologise for Gaza appeal advert...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi2AvbXXjrk

The above shows Hamas killing Palestinians at a wedding.


This is how Hamas beats civilians who try flee from the rockets and the war:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJRUzwdvP_U


Here is Hamas it its own words in March of this year go on Trout deny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFDX_cdwbB0

 

and I suppose you can back up your claims by showing how hamas is willing to accept Israel's (not Palestinian but Israel's) right to exist and is prepared to make peace (not temporary hudna but peace) with her. We are all ears. TIA

 

Your link had nothing to do with the position paper I presented you or the responses I provided. At this point Trout your denials don't even match what is being shown to you.

You are done Trout. Your attempt to deny what is fact is past the point of any return.

 

Nope, sorry, as opposed to your sensationalist propaganda, the pieces I cited are well rounded and balanced refutations of the notion that the Charter is anything other than an irrelevant and outdated relic, cited by those whose motives are unsound and, who therefore, are intellectually dishonest.

 

Bull(*)(*)(*)(*). Read what Borat said in post 77

 

Until you show me a Hamas renunciation of the Charter or any part of it then I call BS. That would be like the US saying that the Declaration of Independence is a historical relic and completely irrelevant, their Charter is their founding document and their declaration of policy goals, it is the most relevant document pertaining to Hamas that there is.

 

Why Dutch do you lack the intellectual ability to answer for yourself? Anyway Borat response is just flaimbait and has been reported as such.

Now getting back to your idea that the terrorists are not staying at the alleged launch site but heading for bunkers leaving only women and children, are you going to stick to your assertion or not? If you are then the IDF is intentionally targeting women and children since they are aware that is who will be there. Unless of course it is only you who has to this information!

 

If it were not a war crime and the enemy was not permitted to attack belligerent forces surrounded by civilians there would be no armored tanks or battleships rather trucks loaded with women and children with guns sticking out here and there. Some people just don't have a grasp on reality it seems.

 

Quite true and, the PA Charter which has yet to ever be amended to reflect it's intent to take the destruction of Israel from it's official platform also shows the destructive nature of Palestinians.

 

I think the answer to the last portion is simple priorities and who's life is valued more - a dead Israeli to them is worth a hundred of their own hence using kids and women to protect weapons and terrorists is fine providing there is a chance of a dead Israeli.

 

Any evidence of this in the current conflict, or are you just spewing the party message?

 

I have received considerable personal abuse in this thread. One was for using the Electronic Intifada which it is claimed is a hate site. Here is wiki on it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electronic_Intifada

I was accused of continuously using hate sites. I do not use hate sites. I can tell you which sites I mainly use when I want to keep up on the situation with the Palestinians. They are 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians' and '972'. Jews for Justice for Palestinians clearly is a Jewish site and 972 is an independent magazine with a range of authors but mainly Jewish and/or Israeli. Both of these sites link to the Electronic Intifada. I would suggest therefore that accusing me of using hate sites is accusing Jews who do not go by mainstream propaganda of doing so, yet more evidence of what I spoke of in post 12 that pro Israelis right or wrong cannot take the thinking of Jews with independent minds never mind accusing those with opposing views of being hateful.

( I will remind posters that where I speak of Jewish Orthodoxy I was not referring to Orthodox Judaism)

Yesterday I was speaking with my daughter now in her mid thirties. She is one of the most anti racist people I know and was deeply moved by what she learned about the holocaust in school - though with her it was taken as a lesson not to be repeated against anyone, not a lesson just not to be repeated against Jews.

She started speaking about Gaza which I gather from her everyone is speaking about and according to her everyone has the same opinion as her, She said 'I just cannot understand how given what they have been through they would do this to another people'. I told her that if she said that on the internet she would be called antisemitic. She said 'Oh don't be ridiculous Mum. What they are doing is ethnic cleansing - they have been through that themselves. How can they do it to another people?'...then she thought for a moment and said ' Of course I know that sometimes when people have been harmed instead of speaking up against it, it they do it to others'. We spoke for a while and as she told me her opinions I pointed out to her that if she said them on the internet she would be considered antisemetic. She thought for a moment and then very calmly said 'All right then, I am antisemetic. If that is what it takes to be antsemitic, I am proud to be antisemitic'. I told her I could understand her view but what was happening was that there was a steep rise in antisemitism in Europe. She was considering the implications of that with concern. I then told her that most European Jews agree with what Israel is doing. She raised her eyebrows...we were then interrupted.

If finding what Israel is doing supported by the US unacceptable is considered something on which to claim, as was done to me that I use hate sites, when such sites are not and further are accepted by Jews themselves and if criticism of Israel is as the things my daughter was saying to me yesterday often considered antisemetic, then as with my daughter a time will come when people of conscience will just say, fine then, if to stand up for human rights is to be antisemitic that is what I am, people will choose to accept that name but the meaning of the word will obviously change. I believe we are getting near that time as described in the article below.

http://antonylerman.com/2014/08/04/...ensive-is-antisemitism-the-right-word-for-it/

Are the Palestinians not human too?

http://jfjfp.com/?p=63490

 

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire
http://www.businessinsider.com/gaza-civilians-actually-reject-hamas-policies-2014-7

Jul 17
"A recent, credible poll shows that most Gazans oppose Hamas policies and leaders alike, and favor a ceasefire with Israel."

How about now?

 

hen Arabs demand 100 murderers for one or two dead Israelis or 1,000 Palestinian criminals for one abducted Israeli soldier who is still alive, they actually set the exchange rate, they indicate clearly and unambiguosly that in their (Arab) eyes the market rate of 1 jew is equal to 100 Palestinians....Don't blame Israel for what you arabs do to yourself if you can possibly help it.

 

>>>MOD EDIT Quoted Post Deleted<<<

Nazism is National Socialism not the system in Israel. You also accused my daughter and myself of comparing Jews to Nazism. I distinguish between Israel and even there those who support the Government's policies and Jews who are Nationals of another country and between them whether they support Israel or not. I also have met on forums several Zionists, most living outside of Israel who I know that if we took away the Israel issue we would likely get on very well together.

I will deal now with the issues >>>MOD EDIT Off Topic Removed<<<

I said my daughter was very moved by learning about the holocaust and that for her never again was not just for Jews it was for everyone. I have noticed this time and again with her that she notices the kind of thinking which can give rise to such xenophobia and for her it stops there. It does not go any further. No holocaust or ill treatment which Jews experienced both before the holocaust and historically is acceptable and it is for people of conscience to speak up if they see it. That is her viewpoint.

She said that she could not understand how given what they had been through could do this to another. That is her feeling. Her heart was broken seeing Gaza and then she was incompressible seeing Israel still looking normal and wondering what justification there could be for this.

She then firmly mentioned that she believed that what Israel was doing was ethnic cleansing - at that point she said, now that did happen to them, they do know what that is like. This is what she used to back up what she had said. She has never been antisemitic. As I pointed out in that post when I said to her that Israel's actions had led to an increase in antisemitism in Europe she showed concern. That was where the talk ended. I have always clearly distinguished between Jews and Israel. She however is of the firm view that what is happening in Gaza and to the Palestinians is very wrong. When I pointed out to her it was unlikely to change because people were still supporting it. She told me that that could not be true. Everyone she said was talking about it and everyone wanted it stopped now. I pointed out she was not including Political Leaders. She asked me why? I suggested Christian Zionism. She agreed.

Israel is moving to the far right. Israel, as I said before has been engaged in ethnic cleansing since she began. The Palestinians are not treated as people with rights. It would be very easy to say they are treated very similarly to the way in which Jews have historically and that is not just related to the Nazis. People will say these things as they get angry at Israel being continually allowed to suppress and attack the indigenous people of Palestine, not least because we are always told to think of Jewish people and what they have been through. People will respond as Israel acts. Criticism of Israel has been called antisemitism. That was what the whole new antsemitism was about and people are aware of that. It is however is not antisemitism as it was which was basically an irrational hatred backed up by same. What is happening now is a very strong anger against what Israel is doing to the Palestinians often wrongly called antisemitism particularly after that new antisemitism came it. People have the right to say what they believe. At the same time I do accept that some people who are classical antisemites do use Israel to express that. I believe therefore that in the current situation where so many people are feeling so angry and in the UK it most certainly is not just Muslims as our Foreign Secretary said, it is all levels of society. I hence believe that we do need to find a way of addressing this which correctly differentiates this from antisemitism because if we do not it is not impossible that what we are seeing, that is an increase in antisemitism will grow. This article speaks of that

http://antonylerman.com/2014/08/04/...ensive-is-antisemitism-the-right-word-for-it/

That I was also discussing with my daughter. I would argue that there is a danger that Israel's actions could lead to increased antisemitism. Indeed that was what our Foreign Secretary warned Israel. If antisemitism is something that someone like my daughter who is against all racism and exploitation would feel she would accept rather than be dishonest, then this surely is a danger. I would also point out that it was not and that is why imo the actions of Israel have to begin to be recognised as the actions of any country, not a country given special allowances because Jews rule it.

 

Yes lots. Firing rockets in order to gain the inevitable response in effect trading their lives for pretty much nothing but a token of hatred. You need more?

 

IDF intentionally target sites from which rockets are fired from. Don't want your children and women from prematurely meeting with Allah? Don't fire them rockets or get them into the safety before you do. Simple, really.

 

There are moble launchers and buried ones, we dont know which one shoots at a given time but the fact is that the big ones that reach Tel Aviv area are so deep into populated areas that IDF never shoots there which is why they continue to shoot to Tel Aviv even thou the launching site is known, thats proof that civilans lives do matter and IDF shoots after considerations and not blindly or with intent to kill as many as possible.

 

A poll? No. Not even close. If black men were hung in Atlanta, burning crosses placed prominently, and the KKK stood on the capital steps and proudly proclaimed they spoke for the people of Atlanta -- I'd expect the people of Atlanta to do more than conduct a poll.

You want to separate Gaza and Hamas in the minds of people around the world, the people of Gaza need to do more than take a poll.




​

 

so his anti jewish editorializing in the OP is not politicization, but mentioning a valid and legal reason for rejecting an is politicization.

yeah Right.

 

But according to yourself they are aware that the only people who will be there are women and children the terrorists having taken residence in a bomb shelter, obviously they therefore know that they are targeting civilians. We are not discussing what Hamas are doing, that I do not condone there actions is on record. We are discussing the IDF deliberately targeting civilians. Please answer my question, are the IDF aware that only women and children are there? Do you maintain your original assertion or not? Or are you saying that only you have this information?

 

Welcome back Gilios, I had noted you hadn't posted recently I hope you and yours are safe.

If what you write is correct, then next to at least some of the dead civilians there should be rocket launchers? I cannot recollect any reports from journalists of this during the present conflict. I have never suggested that the IDF have absolutely no regard for civilian casualties, or attempts to kill as many civilians as possible, both would not be politically astute. I do however think that the IDF are aware civilians are there and in some instances targets them anyway as suggested by Dutch.

 

It is (*)(*)(*)(*)ing IRRELEVANT who is at the launch site - launch site must be destroyed. Palestinian civilians KNOW the site will be destroyed, and if they stick around, it must for for a reason.

Again, it does not matter who or what is at the launch site - launch site must be destroyed. Simple, really.

 

It has been recently reported, journalists are not allowed by Hamas to film launch sites and these who attempt to, deported. Why do you think that is?