Russia, friend or foe?

Math was off but the point is super valid, care to challenge it?

 

Yes, correct. Crime VOTED to leave Ukraine.

 

Congrats, there hasn't been a world war in 72 years. Even though we almost came to the brink of nuclear war in the 60's, then again in the early 80's. What bothers me, is folks like you are more than willing to regress back to a time when the there was a chance of nuclear war with the Russians, like during the Cold War. Why is that? Anyone with common sense already knows what the answer is, but I'd like to hear it coming from you. And, for a follow up question, I'd like to ask you your age. Were you alive during the Cold War?

 

I never watch CNN.

 

Huh? Well, I will let that go for the moment. I suspect we are debating semantics again. There are more important things on the agenda.

Speaking of agenda, when Trump meets with Putin tomorrow, according to the White House, Trump has “no specific agenda.” That is of some concern because the wily, savvy, experienced Putin always has an agenda when meeting with rival leaders. If the inexperienced American President is intending to speak off the cuff, whatever pops into his head, this could go really bad, if only from a political standpoint.

Making matters worse, Russia's attack on our democracy, meaning her interference in our election, is not likely to be discussed. Nor will stopping that interference in future elections be discussed. A spokesperson close to Trump characterized such a discussion as a waste of time and a "loser."

 

There is a reason for that Shanks.

We don't want the Russians to complain about the U.S. supporting anti Russian candidates in Ukraine (or elsewhere) or for that matter our open interference in Israel's elections.

Face it.

Trying to influence elections in other countries is what major powers do.

It is better than actually shooting you know.

 

Prior to meeting with the leaders of the G20, Trump was totally disingenuous at a press conference with the Polish president. That is the polite way of putting it. In fact, he lied and appeared confused.

When asked if he had accepted Russia's role in the election meddling, to everyone's amazement he replied, "I think it was Russia, but it could've been other people and other countries." He added, "Nobody really knows." Then he muddied the waters. "I think a lot of people interfere."

In other words, he refuses to accept the conclusion of his own intelligence agencies. He threw up a smokescreen to hide the truth.

Putin has to be loving this.

Then he went on a rant against the former President. "When Barack Obama found out about this," Trump continued (so it was Russia?), and then, seemingly checking himself: "in terms of, if it were Russia." He went on to say Obama "did nothing about it," and added that "they say he choked."

First, that is a very curious position for Trump to take inasmuch as he encouraged Russia during the election campaign and clearly benefited from the dismantling of the Clinton campaign by Russia.

Secondly, Trump lied or is misinformed. Obama did take steps against the Russian intrusion. He instructed his administration to get a high-confidence assessment from the intelligence community on Russia’s efforts, ensure state-run election systems were secure and garner bipartisan support from Congress to condemn Russia. He issued a series of warnings to the Russians, which Obama’s closest advisers believe “prompted Moscow to abandon any plans of further aggression, such as sabotage of U.S. voting systems. On October 7, 2016, the public was informed that the ODNI and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) had jointly stated that Russian intelligence services had hacked the email accounts of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta, and forwarded their contents to WikiLeaks. The report cited intelligence sources inside the Russian government that identified Putin giving instructions to disparage Clinton and help Trump.

Oh, yes, he also attacked the American press again. That has become so routine, it is meaningless.

Then came the biggest lie of all. Again, Trump is either ignorant or he relied on Americans not knowing the truth. Unfortunately for Trump, Americans remember the truth far better than he does. He provided a false history of a tragic war that cost the lives of nearly 5,000 Americans while wounding another 25,000. He attempted to drag the legacy of those dead Americans into the dirt for political gain, but he made a complete fool of himself, instead.

He said, "I remember when I was sitting back listening about Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, how everybody was 100% certain that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. Guess what? That led to one big mess. They were wrong and it led to a mess."

No, he does not remember. Most Americans know that our intelligence agencies said the very opposite. Iraq did not have WMD's.

That information came from Donald Rumsfeld's private intelligence service, the Office of Special Plans, and was widely promulgated by him, Dick Cheney, and President George W. Bush.

Trump is even confused as to whether or not he has ever met Putin.

Did I say Putin is going to love meeting Trump tomorrow? The White House has no idea what Trump is going to bring up.

Here's hoping we still own Alaska when Putin gets through with Trump.

 

What you seem to be saying is all that is normal. We shouldn't fight back. We shouldn't try to prevent Russia from interfering in our elections again.

Trump agrees with you. He is not likely to bring up the Russian intrusion when he meets with Putin. It is a waste of time, according to a spokesperson close to him.

That is the Trump Presidency in a nutshell. He will not protect our Constitution. He will not fight for our democracy. He will just let Russia slide.

And you agree with that approach. I don't. I think our President should defend our Constitution.

 

That is because it is extremely likely that hack altered the election. A daily, four-month barrage of hacks will do that kind of thing. Do we really want Russia to do that again in 2018? 2020?

Unfortunately, our President doesn't seem to be the least bit interested in the threat.

 

Incorrect. the U.S. CIA Director (Clinton appointee who owed nothing to President Bush) assured President Bush (twice) that the evidence of WMDs in Iraq was a "slam dunk" (direct quote).

If your CIA Director is insisting to your face of that, then why would you question it further?

 

Once again, like you often do, you are claiming I said something that I did not say.

Thus you are lying. As much as you claim your favorite boogeyman President Trump is.

 

"Russian Hacking is similar to an earlier rally cry--Blame the Jews-- issued by another power grabbing party without explaining what it meant." That is a ridiculous characterization, very crude, very foolish, and quite meaningless.

Your viewpoint is very interesting. It comes from the Trump playbook today. However, his playbook during the election campaign was entirely different. “Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”

In other words, while the hacking was going on, Trump thought it was very effective and it was designed to help him. Eight months later, you tell us "the emails were embarrassing, but had no proven affect on the election." Very interesting.

And very hypothetical. You can't prove that the hacking had "no proven effect on the election" no more than I can prove it did because we speaking about people's mind here. How many were swayed by the Wikileaks campaign? How many people changed their minds because of what they heard? We have no way of knowing for sure.

However, common sense dictates that a daily barrage of information for four months designed to dismantle the Clinton campaign would have some effect. How much? That can't be determined, but there had to be some effect. And, by some coincidence, Clinton did not win.

Did the Russian hacking campaign help Trump? Well, the best person to answer that question is Trump himself. As I have shown, Trump believed the Russian efforts helped him and he encouraged the efforts.

You are being rather presumptuous when you differ with Trump and his opinion while the Russian barrage of hacks was taking place. Eight months later, your opinion doesn't mean much.

 

Of course it's normal.

Sure, we should do both. And to that end we should redefine our political principles so we are never so divided again.

The way people are dealing with the Russia matter is not a good way forward.

 

There is a story behind that, and I don't wish to get into it here. It would be a distraction. Suffice to say the intell agencies said exactly what I wrote. I didn't say Tenet said that. When the intell agencies were proven right, Tenet resigned in embarrassment.

 

That's a very curious statement. How about the way Trump is handling the Russian matter?

Do you think it is possible the people and the media are frustrated because our President chooses not to handle the Russian matter?

For someone who doesn't like Trump, you sure defend him a lot, far better than 99% of Trump's so-called friends.

 

Seems appropriate to me.

No, I think they took some reasonable concerns, mixed them in with personal distaste for the man, and came out with a hysterical worldview.

The fact that propaganda released by foreigners may have had a significant impact on an American election is not some geopolitical anomaly at all. We all live on this Earth together, and the things we do impact one another. I do, and have urged right-wingers to think about why Putin might have wanted Trump to win (incidentally I'm not entirely sure he did, but we can discuss that later), so that they can go forward with a better understanding of America and it's place in the world.

I don't think that leftists are sticking by some long-held consistent beliefs about geopolitics, I think they lost an election and they're trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of that election. This is a very dangerous thing to do.

You'll find that someone who doesn't like a person is always better at defending them than someone who does.

And I'm not sure where you think I've defended Trump at all. I don't believe that I ever mentioned him here. I don't believe that he is a puppet of Russia, and his actions so far have certainly reinforced my belief. Selling Patriot missile defense systems to Poland? Great move, and aimed directly at Russia. Taking a harder line on Assad than Obama did? I dig it.

He's made some stupid moves. He's made some good moves. We'll see where it goes from here.

 

You introduced the issue and made a claim.

Prove it.

 

Just because you hate your quarterback doesn't mean you don't block for him.

 

Thank you for demonstrating what I pointed out. All the claims of the Trump Team and Russians colluding to rig the presidential elections is just HYPERBOLE.

All talk and no evidence.

Come back when you have specific proof.

 

Unless the actual vote count was changed via a hack then frankly it doesn't matter. Why because it's no different than if the US government or media tried to sway voters and they did. All that happened is they sucked more than those wanting Trump to win. It's like this in every election and people need to get over it.

 

We are being told, even by CNN, that Trump was tough on Russia in his speech yesterday. That is quite true. What also is quite true is that Trump relies on rhetoric to show his supporters that he is actually accomplishing something. Unfortunately for Trump, the old adage, "actions speak louder than words," holds true.

When asked about Russia's attack on our democracy, Trump was equivocal and seemed confused by the question. "I think it was Russia, but it could've been other people and other countries. Nobody really knows. I think a lot of people interfere." Then he muddled it up with still another rant about a former President, the news media, and the Iraq War.

The fact remains, as President, Trump has never condemned Russia for interfering in our election.

As President, Trump has not taken punitive action against Russia for interfering in our election.

As President, Trump has not taken any steps to prevent Russia from interfering in our future elections.

The two hour meeting with Putin concluded and Trump did not answer questions from the media on whether they discussed Russia's alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. election.

Actions speak louder than words.

 

Putin is an authoritarian who is shady but the way to beat him is not to call him a 'thug' and accuse him of having so much influence in elections. All this makes him stronger, the democrats and neocons have made Putin out to be the ruler of the world and spend their time trying to measure d_cks, it's so stupid.

I actually think it's good that Trump has the strength to not cave in to the political pressure (then he would indeed be weak and pathetic) but try to improve relations with Russia. To beat Putin, you have to engage him and let him know America wants to improve relations, this may disarm Putin. If we demonize him and talk about him as such a powerful man 24/7 in the media, this just makes Putin so much stronger and creates conflict. Anyone here want a war with a nuclear superpower? how dumb.

 

Are you joking, acting stupid, or playing the devil's advocate? You can't really believe what you just said.

Essentially, what you said is that the American government's attempts to lure voters and the American media's attempts to lure voters is the same thing as a foreign government's attempts to lure voters. That is an astonishing statement to make.

The OP indicated that a large percentage of Trump supporters are Russian sympathizers. It is easy to see that you fall within that group and you feel that is perfectly okay. It is quite alright for Russia to pick our next leaders as they did with your candidate in November 2016.

The other 75% of Americans view all this with some concern.

That statement is equally foolish. It totally ignores the strong possibility that a daily, four-month barrage of Wikileaks disclosures leading right up to election day had a strong impact on voters. It also runs counter to Trump's opinion that the leaks did have an effect on voters. He encouraged the Russians.

I bet you voted for Trump. That explains a lot.

 

How do you know that? I doubt many actions by a president against other nations are out in the open.

President Reagan waged a tough economic war against the Soviet Union in the 1980s. One that killed thousands of Soviet citizens yet information about it didn't come out until decades later.

 

Neither

They are a country that will take actions first and foremost to better itself. As soon as we understand that and stop calling them evil the more quickly we can make a better global community