The Dawn of the Clone Wars

As for drones, Iran has a dozen different type of stealth drones. Including stealth drones made by Iran copied from the US drone, Sentinel, Iran commandeered to land in its territory in 2011. (We also have models which have nothing to do with the Sentinel or any other foreign designs).

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...d-iranian-drone-is-a-knockoff-of-us-sentinel/
Israel Air Force says seized Iranian drone is a knockoff of US Sentinel

 

yes you can fly low to shorter the LAND base radar detect range, its done since cold war. but its not gonna work if the foes has a AWAC in the area. also terrain hugging only work to a point, as the missile get closer, its much easier to detect because it doesn't have the advantage of earth curvature anymore. furthermore there are short range anti-missile and close in weapon + EW jammer to protect critical target. Saudi land mostly flat except northern part I think, so cruise missile don't have place to hide.
there is a reason its called multi layer air defense, however Saudi is much bigger than Israel so it doesn't have the air defense density as Israel. not saying cruise missile is not effective, but iran need lunch many missile in order to penetrate air defense such as US/Russia/china or other modern military. but for pipeline stuff, its very difficult for saudi to cover hundreds miles of that.

 

I get that they are supposed to be undetectable. .. the question is whether or not they should have been detected by US run air defenses. The THAAD is a ballistic missile defense system .. it is not designed for cruise missiles and drones.

 

If it is so easy to detect then why were they not detected ... which is the point of this discussion.

 

You are right about THAAD, but I am not aware of any system that can reliably pick up low-flying cruise missiles and drones. If there were such systems, I guess they wouldn't be considered undetectable.

 

could be training issue or else, I doubt they are in combat alert 24/7, that will be exhausting. for example US destroyer was hit by small boat operate by terroist during night, most sailor were sleeping, ship was docked, radar and other sensor was not on, so it was at its most vulnerable time. if it was on high sea under combat alert, radar on etc, it would never happened.
also those short range missile has less response time due to Saudi geo location.

 

AWACS is not going to pick up a cruise missile that hugs the terrain. Manned aircraft, while flying low to avoid radar, don't fly that low.

 

those terrain hugging can be detected, its not stealth but for land base radar due to earth curvature or line of sight it wont detect till later, unless its over horizon radar but usually OTH are used to detecting ships/large object. THAAD/patriot are meant for med-long ranges, for short range its usually radar guided anti-air artillery, short range anti-missile, CIWS, and EW jammer. furthermore if there is AWAC in the area, it can detect those missile much further away.

 

I guess the point of the discussion here to prove that Israel has a viable defense against what Iran can fire at it in case of war? And I guess my point is that it doesn't. Besides the fact that Israel's air defenses can be overwhelmed by a volley of ballistic missiles, the cruise missiles we are talking about aren't going to be even detected before they hit their target. That is the assessment of Israel's own intelligence website.

 

not sure where you get that idea. AWACS been used for many years to detect terrain hugging objects. cause its looking down rather than up

http://tech.mit.edu/V105/N14/wald.14o.html

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/e3awacs/

 

The Patriot and Russian S-300 and 400 systems are supposed to be able to do this to some degree - as is the Iron Dome. You are correct however that low flying object is very difficult to pick up until it is very close. With cruise missiles you have perhaps 30-60 seconds to react.

 

I got the idea reading what I posted for you regarding a particular type of cruise missile covered in that piece.

But there is another reason I have for this belief: US claims to have wiretapped instructions by Iran's Supreme Leader authorizing the attack on the Saudis only on condition the launch couldn't be traced to Iran. If true, I guess it couldn't be detected to be traced!

 

Radar doesn't sleep. And some small boat is different than a missile.

 

Detecting cruise missiles is one thing - shooting them down is quite another.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...ia-shows-short-range-air-defenses-ncna1057461

In short ... summing up the rest of the article - we don't have good defenses against these threats.

 

Bah!

 

I didn't learn that term ("Bah"). What does it mean?

 

It means what you said was nonsense. Not believable in any way.

 

if Israel can do it so can we. those drone/cruise missile are slow moving target, subsonic. slower and larger than rocket used by hamas, and Israel has much less reaction time. the issue is Saudi can't cover entire land, also they are not 24/7 under alert status. there are alots video and source showing china/us/Russia shooting down low flying drones. if we can't even shooting down slow moving target like that, then forget about supersonic missiles.

this is just one of many ways to get the cruise missile down. also don't use nbcnews etc, those are mainstream media and don't know squad about defense. goto defenstalk, janesdefense or siniodefense forum ask ppl who has much more knowledge in this topic than someone from nbc

 

So its your supposition that SYSTEMIC (IE system wide) corruption and incompetence exist, but deny that it would've therefore been the cause or a contributing factor to this royal **** up?

 

Israel can't and that will be even more evident one of these days, when one day everyone wakes up and finds an Israeli airfield (particularly those housing the F-35s) has been attacked. This may happen even sooner than you think. The main impediment is how to get the appropriate cruise missiles for such an operation to the Iraqi militia without the army of US informants and spies not finding out about it.

 

1) Obviously you did not read the article - and your ad hom fallacy (attacking the source rather than the message) is mindless denial. I am the first one to stand up and point out that the MSM .. in particular MSNBC - Fox - CNN, are propaganda spewing machines. That does not make every word out of those networks "Propaganda".

The points made in the link can be found in numerous other sources and they are valid points.

Lastly - The propaganda coming out of the the MSM - is geared towards maintaining the Establishment narrative. The Establishment big money interests own the military industrial complex - and the networks referred to previously. If anything the link given you goes against the Establishment narrative - to a very small degree though which is why a topic like this is not "verboten".

2) You then go on to post 2 propaganda videos - from a defense contractor. ... the word "Priceless" comes to mind. Did you expect ND to make a video extolling the negatives of their product ? Would someone not be a complete idiot for even having some expectation of objectivity from a vendor selling a product - as in by telling the customer a bunch of negative stuff ?

3) Although you have made no attempt to address the points made in my post ... note that I do not live in the world of avoid and deny - and at least attempt to address your points - or at least acknowledge their existence.

The Iron Dome is some of the best technology on the market ... which is why we have purchased some of it (lacking the capability ourselves) - kind of like how we use Russian Rockets to get our people to the Space Station and to launch satellites.

Not saying that the Iron Dome is that great - but the Patriot System is certainly not. The home made rockets fired by Hamas into Israel are just that - basically a slightly more sophisticated fire work such as a bottle rocket.

A) the rockets have a heat signature in close proximity to the target - in an area laden with sensors. - there is no sensors coverage hundreds of miles away where these drones would have been launched - nor is there necessarily any heat signature in the case of these drones - cruse missiles yes ...but it would not be detected.

B) The rockets travel on a single predictable trajectory - which makes them the easiest possible target (in the realm of missiles/rockets/) to hit - and C) they are slow moving.

Even so the Iron Dome manages to miss a whole lot of Rockets.

In a case where you do not have a defined trajectory - it is a different story. In the case of cruise missiles which move very fast and do not travel in a predictable parabolic trajectory - it is a different story - a completely different world. In the case where you to not know the threat is coming -as in the case of the rocket - it is a different story.

Sorry but - you are out of your depth - your arguments are simplistic and come out of the pages of a vendor propaganda pamphlet - which does not necessarily make everything said wrong but, you have made no attempt to find objective sources and are in complete denial of arguments which conflict with your propaganda narrative.

You started out by poo pooing the idea that the drone threat was significant - basically spouting the "necessary illusion" that we are the best at everything and no one can harm us. "American Exceptionalism"

Aside from the obvious appeal to majority of Experts and authorities - which is that you would be hard pressed to find a military expert or analyst that does not view the evolution of drone and "smart" cruise missile technology as a serious threat - one to which we do not currently have good answers - a fact that should at least give you pause prior to making such a defacto and smug claim - your arguments have been ridiculously weak -and you run away from any information or arguments that conflict with your spoon fed necessary illusion.

You then turn around and claim to be aware of propaganda ... as if there is something other than automated regurgitation of propaganda going on.

Time for a wake up call my friend.

 

there are bunch video on Israel iron dome, and article about it, it doesn't have 100% success rate, but non of the modern air defense has 100% rate


the problem is the rebel is not gonna get enough missile/drone to lunch a coordinate saturation attack against critical target. sure they can hit some target that's not heavily protected, if they fire say dozens or more missiles simultaneously, 1 or 2 might get through. but cruise missile are slow, US had those for many years, and defense company has been doing R&D on how to counter it since cold war.

 

I don't need to watch propaganda video on the Iron Dome. The Iron Dome is a good system but ultimately worthless in a real war. Or even any type of engagement that involves more than a small number of rockets or missiles launched against Israel. As I posted earlier, it couldn't even record much success recently in the latest salvo of rockets from Hamas.

 

goto defensetalk or sinodefense forum ask ppl around. there is no 100% success rate for any air defense, it depend how many layers and how many type of defense, and concentration/density. modern air defense use radar for long range, thermal/radar for short range. its layer defense not a simple anti-missile system

compare to fighter jet maneuverability cruise missile are slower and less maneuverability, cruise missile has routing point, that's NOT maneuver, it does not have active countermeasure against incoming threat. like I said go to those forum, many member on those form are retired military officer or professional who study about military tech/tactic for many year.

 

whatever you said, you really should goto a defenseforum to ask about it. Iron dome was design to stop Hama rocket, not intercept cruise missile, however these rocket are much smaller, faster, and Israel has less reaction to it. it does not mean Israel doesn't have other system to protect them against cruise missile/drones.