All religions would like the cultures to 'subsume' it. It happened with christianity, it's why the USA became what it is today. Folks left the intolerant religion being forced upon them and left for religious freedom. I think even those who practice buddah are subsumed in the religion. Where did I ever say that religions don't want to be the dictating factor in the society in which it is practiced. Western worlds have left the religions rules and laws for secular laws to gain more personal freedoms. Many Arab worlds have not yet left the religious rule for more personal freedoms, but I think it is trying to move that way. What this has to do with your wanting an honest debate about Islam, escapes me.
Sure a couple of small group think. Perhaps Buddahism was more like those two in the beginning. All religions look to seek control over the masses.
I'm not sure what this means. Religions, insofar as we'd like to assign agency to them, like to subsume cultures, not the other way around. I think that you really misunderstand English politics of the 16th and 17th centuries. The people fleeing Britain WERE the intolerant ones. Look at Cromwell's reluctant dictatorship. Okay, I agree with you here. My only argument is that Islam imposes difficult obstacles to secularist politics. In Turkey a zealous nationalist movement was the only thing capable of accomplishing it, and even in that country it is slipping away. In Central Asia and the Caucasus it took centuries of living under Christian and then Communist yoke. This is all concerning because history is not automatic. There is no guarantee that 100 years from now all the countries of the world will look like North America or Europe. We're not approaching the end of history, we're still squarely in the fire. I'm not being mysterious here. I think that Islam poses difficult obstacles to secularism and liberalism, and these obstacles need to be recognized and discussed. Many within the Islamic community are doing that work, we should do the same in the West. My real concern is that leftist tendencies to shut down discussion make people inclined to accept far-right ignorance on the topic. People rightfully look at Islam with some measure of concern, and if the only two sides they see on the issue are "Islam is just like every other religion nothing to see here move along" and "Islam is the bane of civilization and an existential threat", they're going to be inclined to move towards the latter. Europe threatens to erupt in anti-Islamic violence within just a few short years. What happens if Turkey opens the flood gates? Pogroms don't seem out of the question. This is a horrifying possibility.
Of course they do. As I've been saying, all religions who had control threw out obstacles. We can discuss all we want, ultimately it comes down to the people in those countries to change it, if they want it. It can't be forced upon them like Bush tried to do with Iraq. What do you want the west to do? Yes we should show how our way of life is better for them. But not with the use of force or arms. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think you might be over reacting. The west is NOT going to let Islam rule their countries.
That's not an analysis at all. The concern is that not many people DO want to change it because it's easy to look at Western culture as corrupt and decadent, if one is looking through Islamic eyes. Islam is both the root and catalyst for illiberal sentiments. You've turned me into a bit of a strawman here. I would never support the use of arms to change entire foreign cultures wholesale, and I'm not one of those people who fears Islam as an existential threat to the West. Islam is a concern for Europe for a number of reasons, but most of all because Europeans are proving to be very bad at integrating Muslims. As ISIS fighters return from Syria and Iraq tensions will rise. There is not a major Islamic terrorist threat in the United States. It's different for Europe, and isn't likely to go away. The problem isn't that these terrorists might conquer Europe, that's not even a plausible outcome. The problem is that tensions between European natives and Muslim refugees continue to rise, and ultimately that widespread violence might erupt from both sides. Long term, the Muslims of Europe are in danger.
Incredible! It seems you rely entirely on your beliefs rather than doing any research. Why participate in any conversation if you have no knowledge of the subject? I don't participate in discussions on nuclear physics because it's all a mystery to me, yet their are many like you who feel they can comment on something without doing any research whatsoever, You just take up space which could be used by someone far interesting and more familiar with the subject. It's 'bad' to murder Gays? That's pretty strong talk! Is it also 'bad' not to sell them a wedding cake as well? And, of course, Christians again! Which is why you lend to the idea that Americans can sometimes be rather ignorant of world events. You should do yourself and your country's reputation a favor by educating yourself on a subject before commenting. Seems you can easily 'get over' the murder of Gays, the killing and subjugation of females of all ages, death for apostates and blasphemy, and so on. Please begin telling people you live in Pakistan, Afghanistan or some other Islamic dominated country where this sort of thinking is commonplace. You bring embarrassment to the USA and all people who value human life.
Mohammed did not write the Koran. In fact he was totally illiterate. "Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them......"Quran 7:157. What we do know is that many stories were gathered together by various individuals and later a 'holiness' ascribed to the writings. Much of them are based on Jewish writings and traditions. http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/islamjudaism/
I'm skeptical that a religion could change so nakedly in such short order, but ultimately I don't consider this a very important point. It's clear that the teachings of Islam were still being hammered out while Muhammed was a major political leader, which I believe accounts for some of the key differences between it and other religions. For example, Islam is more deeply political than just about any other religion in the world. It's a different way of looking at the human project.
It's easy enough to check out the history of Islam and its beginnings. I don't know how 'major' Mohammed was when he met his 72 virgins, outside his immediate sphere of influence, but his reputation certainly grew with time, and some major editing. He was only mentioned a few times in the Koran while Jewish teachers, like Moses, were mentioned far more frequently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_mentioned_by_name_in_the_Quran
Of course it is. From a different perspective than your, apparent, narrow one. If many people DO NOT want to change, then that is what should be. To them Western culture is decadent and corrupt, just like your 1 sided view of them is decadent and corrupt. Who is right? You or them? Why would your or anyone want to change any culture wholesale? They should live their lives like they like, just like you live yours. Europe will figure it out. If they want Islam, which I doubt, they will adopt it. If not, they will make it so Islam has little effect. Remember, they were very christian at one time, and folks fled it to come here, USA. Whenever a new culture move into another culture, there is always a period of transition. If as you say, and I agree, Islam will not overtake Europe, then there is not much to worry about. Except the transition period. Transition is never easy. Long term, European Muslims will have to adapt or die out. As is always the case. I do however wonder, why, more Islamic states don't take a more offensive nature to the like of ISIS.
Obviously I'm the one who's correct. I believe in the universality of liberal and secular principles. The way they live their lives impacts the people around them. If you told me that I could change those people so they'd stop persecuting homosexuals or slaying apostates, I would. If they lived more like me it wouldn't be a problem. I hope so, but I'm not so optimistic. Did you even read my post? There is ALOT to worry about. Tensions between Muslims and European semi-fascists are likely to rise over the coming decades, and the dangers in this fact are obvious. Too few people want to expend the resources. They're moving on it, just slowly.
Long story short. You either don't know what I'm saying or I didn't do a good job of typing it. Non face to face interactions are hard to convey messages. But, based on your 1st comment, you must be an expert in Islamic religion. It's bad to murder anyone. Not selling someone a wedding cake is bad, but not like murdering. It depends, IMO, on how civilized a culture is. But I still haven't seen you cite how many gays are thrown off buildings. I suspect you can't show it, but for the extreme, like ISIS. Which I don't view as the religion. Just a radical interpretation, but more for politics than religion. You bring embarrassment to the Western world. As narrow minded as your thinking seems to be. For the USA in particular, is to integrate people who've been oppressed. I am beginning to think your are RW on the alt right side in your thinking. As dangerous as the alt left or deeply religious.
This explains why you can't have an honest discussion of the topic. As I said earlier, you have a closed mind. You are correct in your mind, but that is only your mind and others who also have a closed mind. How they live their lives is up to them. You don't get to choose how every culture in the world lives, nor should you or I. That is their choice. If you or I don't like their choices, then we show them a better way. Up to this point, we have not. We have tried by force and war. Not likely to win over others hearts and minds. And that is where it has to start. Europe as an group has been around far longer than the USA as a group, so I think they'll figure it out to the best of their wants and needs. I read your posts. But you are not the sole voice in what Europe or Muslims want. Not everyone wants what you want. There are 7B people in the world, they don't all think and act the same. But it is getting more integrated as the world shrinks due to technology. Things don't change over night, it takes generations. If you think the WEST is weak, I don't, then there could be worry, but the WEST is strong and have move religion to the back, they move christianity to the back, they won't let Islam move to the front. Human nature has become to educated to believe in backwards religion. But we won't end stupid religious beliefs in short order. As I just said. It takes generation to change a mindset. Think about it, do you carry many of the same beliefs as your parents? Most do. But each generation changes slightly. It's why grandparents rarely understand their grandkids. The world is way different between the 2 generations. To the grandkids, it's normal. To the grandparents, it's chaos and decadent.
This is a great example of what can be so annoying about leftists and why they're the victims of so many conspiracy theories. I never pretended to be 'an expert on Islam", and would instantly deny such a title, yet you claim I must be an expert. Sure we could debate face to face but we have to go with the medium we now share. Therefore we have to go by the printed word, and do our best to choose our words and ideas a little more carefully. Of course we're mostly amateurs but that's what makes this all the more challenging. Why is the number important to you? All you need to is google Gays thrown off buildings, or executed, and the numbers will probably turn up. Geez man at least try, okay? Your simplistic and erroneous views are almost childlike. Maybe you're just too lazy so here ya go. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-punished-by-death-2/?utm_term=.5fe881c430e9 And who do you think is doing the oppressing??Any idea whatsoever? Here's a little something for broadminded people like yourself. https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/03/...-gays-off-rooftops-to-screams-of-allahu-akbar
ah, I see you know nothing about Buddhism. No you are quite wrong. I will tell you what the buddha said 'Put no knowledge above the deepest truth you know within yourself'. think again.
I wonder how many primitive humans wanted to change their cozy caves for costly sophisticated skyscrapers. Or their smoke signals for smartphones. You're saying that a society has not only the right, but the duty to oppress individuals who hold opinions and values unlike those of the majority. You're saying that the great thinkers of the antiquity, the acclaimed artists of the Renaissance, scientists like Copernicus and great leaders like Lincoln or Martin Luther King should've never been allowed to be. Dictatorship of the majority is still a dictatorship, no matter how you look at it, bent on stifling dissent and trampling on individual rights. Doesn't sound right. Back to the topic: are you saying that burka and other unpalatable Islamic stuff (like fgm) are to be allowed in Austria because the majority of the Muslims there don't want changes? Leaving aside the undefined vague hive-like "them", there's a simple way to decide who's right. The side that values life over ideologies is always right. All the cultures we know today, including Islam, are the result of wholesale changes of the cultures that preceded them. This is how human societies function. As for "live their lives like they like" together with Islam, well... It seems a bit odd to claim that Muslims like the way they live when there are such harsh penalties for those who openly declare they don't like to live the way they live... How can the Europeans minimize the impact of Islam on their countries without changing anything about Islam? It's a virulently missionary religion.
fair enough The number is not important to me. It must be to you, you keep using it for an argument. But you don't even know if it's 1, 2 or 30. I tend to respond to people like they tend to portray themselves in these forums. OK, you gave a number. From a website. Thanks. The website is this: Tracking terroism, not the religion. The Islamic State, is who did the throwing off. That is not Islam, but a radical terrorist organization. How about an acutal cleric who represents Islam?
Why is the burka not allowed? How about a nun's habit? Shouldn't they be treated similarly? Says who? You? How will you instill your values? With war like the USA has been doing? Yes, cultures change. I never claimed that all like the way they live. But it is up to them to change what they can. And yes, outsiders can help, but it is a fine line between helping and intruding. And the question always is, who is correct? Who gets to decide? Europeans should treat them the way other religions are treated. No special rules.
A burka is a piece of clothing that covers the entire body including the face, except holes to see through. A habit is a piece of clothing that does not cover the face, like the headscarf who by far most muslims are wearing.
FGM is done by Jews and Christians as well. It has nothing to do with islam. There are like 1.5 billion muslims. Who are you to say they don't like their own culture?
It was you who asked for the number. Is there anyone more representative of Islam than the Ayatollah Khomeini, revered by Muslims and Leftists everywhere? You might can read some of his wisdom here though, being a leftist, you may nor read it all. Nonetheless it may give you a hint of what it's all about..http://islammonitor.org/uploads/docs/greenbook.pdf I'm sure you'll be very shocked that his influence still lives on today. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Homosexuals_(Iran)
