Would you vote for President Trump's plan on immigration?

I know of people in high tech, who were displaced because of HB1 visas. When you have to show your replacement the ropes and draw unemployment and have a hard time getting back into these fields, because of HB1s, we got a big problem. So companies lie about there not being enough americans to fill these jobs? It is an old ploy to get people who will insure that you do not have to work within a free market, when it comes to labor. Got demand for a particular skill set, which would drive up wages, causing more people to enter into the field? Lobby for more HB1s. When industries needed more people, in the past they worked here, at home, with institutions, to get these high demand people. We used to have special schools out the yin yang here, when industry worked with communities and states. Well, those schools are gone, and why even work with universities when you can get a cheaper worker as you escape supply demand, using HB1 visas? It is a scheme and I recall reading about how once upon at time Bill Gates lied through his teeth in regards to this very issue.

These HB1s are much like the old indentured servant deal. See, when a company gets an immigrant, using an HB1, the foreigner is tied to the corporation, and cannot go to work for anyone else. As the corporation promises eventually to help them with a green card, which may never happen. So, the immigrant works for the corporation or he can go back home. Reminds me of old plantations, except I don't think a corporation can sell his HB1 employee to another company. Unless that too has changed.

HB1s in essence operates like construction and illegal aliens operate. Having once served the construction industry with my products, I saw how contractors and sub contractors would hire illegals, mexicans, for half the going wage, lay off their american workers who were being paid higher wages, and keep on an american or two, as foremans, supervisors, over the illegals, and then start taking more of the business from other contractors by simply being able to always underbid the companies who used legal labor. It happened to my son in law a subcontractor, who owned a nice sized business during the last housing boon. He could not compete with the illegal labor bidding. For he only worked americans, not wanting to break the law. Well, he saw that people that abide by the law, will go under, out of business, which he did. After over 20 years of being in the construction business. And this is how the real world works, and you can take the theoretical world, which so many people live in, and with a buck, buy yourself a coke.

 

Yes and no. Yes for such as chain migration and the immigration lottery.

The President has now made what I posted in the OP his formal proposal, other than he reduced it by more than 1/3rd from 64 billion to less than half at $25 billion.

 

Mexico couldn't pay it all now if it was willing to. Payment can come in 1.) tariffs, 2.) taxing remittances sent to Mexico and/or 3.) a border crossing fee, basically a costly toll booth for entry into the USA for any commercial vehicles, plus ships and aircraft for products.

 

If the lands we "stole" were under Mexican control and governance they would be the area we needed to fence off to stop illegal immigration. It is that Mexican governance that keeps their country poor and their people in poverty. None of our unwelcome immigrants are trying to regain land their ancestors owned, their ancestors never owned land on either side of the border.

 

As usual, some people fail to see the forest for the trees.

Employers hire undocumented foreigners because they will work for less money and do more work... plus they are much more dependable.

* SOLUTION - Parents and teachers in the schools should begin to teach children how to work rather than walk around all day long with a headset on, listening to mind altering crap

Undocumented foreigners are being accused of stealing jobs

* SOLUTION - First get it through your head that an employer is not obligated to provide you with a job. When you show up at an interview with purple hair, a week's growth of whiskers on your face, wearing clothes barely suitable for a clown and bad hairdos from Mad Max flicks, you probably won't be taken seriously.

What you CAN do is to encourage the government to give substantial tax incentives to employers who hire an all American staff, take people off welfare / unemployment / disability, and tax incentives for employers whose starting wage is 15 percent above poverty level

If you think an undocumented foreigner "stole" a job, then you should have enough integrity to boycott that business rather than become an accessory to the alleged and nonexistent crime. Of course that would mean Walmart might shut down, but what the Hell. Right?

The biggest resistance the anti-immigrant lobby has comes from their own side that really don't want a wall around America. Anti-immigrant types in general fail at math. They do not understand how wealth is created. For if they did, they would understand that every accounting ledger has two sides: credits and debits. All the anti-immigrant can see is what they believe are the alleged "costs" of the foreigners being here. They fail to understand that the work ethic of those from south of the border surpasses that of their American counterpart on average.

When I was a kid, the big insult from the older generation to the teens was "you think someone owes you a living." How right they were! The average American actually thinks that private employers owe them a living and that a big government should babysit them 24 / 7.

On the one hand the anti-immigrant wants to play into the hands of the idea of a multicultural society while, on the other hand, they want the immigration laws enforced in a manner that is wholly unconstitutional and prejudicial when applied against the employer. The average anti-immigrant does not understand what the founding of this nation was all about. And, without that understanding, they are doomed to failure. Even if any wall is built, what goes up must come down. They delude themselves into believing you can receive the good without the bad, but their examples???? Mexico? China? Trading Liberties off for the promise of temporary Safety never works for when you give up Liberty, you end up with tyranny and NO Safety.

 

Can you explain this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista_(Mexico)

I'm not saying it's right, just that it is what it is.

 

It's not their land, neither currently or historically. Like North America it once belonged to the Indian tribe that was strong enough to hold on to it. The Spanish took it, the French grabbed a handful and then we got it. We still have it if we are strong enough to keep it. That's the burning question today, are we?

 

The narrative is false. Neither Spain nor Mexico controlled the Southwest. Native Americans did. Spain and Mexico only controlled a few coastal towns and inner forts. All the land was controlled by Native Americans. It was not until Americans with the Colt revolver and Springfield rifle came along that Native Americans lost control militarily.

 

Your's is a false narrative.
1. Neither Mexico nor Spain controlled the Southwest. Native Americans did. Spain and Mexico only controlled a few coast towns and inland forts. Native Americans controlled all the land, including militarily.

2. To the extent Spain or Mexico controlled any of the Southwest, it was "a very shameful act of a powerful nation against a far weaker one," ie Native Americans

3. The reason Mexico allowed American immigrants into those territories was hoping Americans could withstand the Native American militaries/attacks, which Mexico could not do. Mexico never controlled the land and it was not Mexican land, it was Native American land.

4. It was not Spain or Mexico that defeated Native Americans other than for specific forts and a few coastal towns, it was Americans

5. Neither Spain nor Mexico purchased any of Native American's land. The USA did pay Mexico for most of the land.

 

We stole the land from Native Americans, not Mexico.

 

We might as well give them amnesty, citizenship, and whatever. It's inevitable because global Big Money wants it (Workers, consumers -- and this is just the beginning). They're doing this kind of crap in Europe, too. I'm tired of writing about it....

I wish that we would abandon the utterly deranged idea of a "wall" and put the money into aerial armed surveillance drones and other robotics instead, but, what the hell.

Actually, some parts of this will be entertaining.... I want to see anybody (ANYBODY) build a "wall" through the Chisos Mountains, or Santa Elena Canyon... along with other interesting places of note on the 1,550 miles of our border with Mexico....

. Chisos Mtns. . Santa Elena Canyon. HAVE FUN!

 

Where exactly in our southern border states did you say those Mexican boundaries are at anyway? Because illegals are in every state in our nation. So it seems to me that they will cross every boundary and break every law that gets in their way or that they think they can get away with. It is lawlessness. And part of it is our own doing.

 

If he said he loves all kinds of ice cream, they'd call him a liar for not wanting to eat poop flavored ice cream. They are ridiculously juvenile. And we have to address them because their votes remain equal to ours, even while their intellects and characters are devolving and disintegrating, right before our very eyes.

 

If you're turning that job over to an illegal / de facto government operating out of Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption with the silly notion that we can build a government big enough to save us from ourselves, then clearly we cannot keep the Republic.

Building a government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take all you have. The political pendulum swings back and forth. For the anti-immigrant lobby to finance, train and equip an army of ninja clad federal mercenaries that will be employed against the posterity of the founders and bury the anti-immigrants inside of two generations says you will NEVER be strong enough to fight your own battles.

Just as I was right about what the compromise would be before Trump got into office (Dreamers for the nutty wall funding) know this: I can tell you with no hesitation or reservation, the 24 / 7 / 365 womb to the tomb surveillance and control the anti-immigrant lobby wants will make us even less free than China or Mexico (the two countries want us to emulate.)

 

I was probably a Conservative before most of the rest of you were even born. Nevertheless, I have never seen anything to suggest that the "wall" would be anything other than what is described here (emphasis mine): "Days after taking office on Jan. 20, Trump signed an executive order calling for a “physical wall along the southern border.” But the order didn’t include specific details or say how it would be funded or how much it might cost." Link: http://www.news-herald.com/article/HR/20170605/news/170609731 . So, you postulate that Trump's use of the word, "wall" is like Bill Clinton's use of the word "is"...?

In calling me a liar, I notice that you didn't bother to give a link or provide a quote indicating that Trump had ordered anything other than a full-length border wall! If you've got information from a credible source, show it.

I voted for Trump. I worked in Reagan's first unsuccessful campaign and then in the later campaign when we won and we really did 'make America great again' even though Ronald Reagan ended up giving illegal bastards 'amnesty' back then! But, yeah, I'd vote for Trump all over again -- but some of you, my colleagues on the Right (?) had better wake up and understand that if we lose either the House or the Senate (or both!) in the November elections, we are SCREWED! The Democrats will put Trump on a short-leash, deep in a dark dog house, and that will be the end of that....

This "dreamer" horseshit is 'low-hanging fruit' to these rabid, radical Democrats -- and they'll milk this 'issue' for everything they can get out of it. Better to just give these brats and their illegal alien parents amnesty and remove this as an election-year topic! Three million illegal aliens in a nation of 325 million people? Is that what we're getting so damned wrapped around the axle about?!

 

Given your solutions, I'd agree with the citizenship, amnesty, etc. angle. I'd rather have Mexicans than armed drones, the POLICE STATE, and an army of tyrants lording over me 24 / 7.

There are other solutions, you know.

 

You don't get the math, do you?

Between the fact that a third of the undocumented foreigners are Dreamers AND over 46 percent of the foreigners without papers came in legally is 77 percent of your problem.

Once the Dreamers are given citizenship, they can get their relatives into the U.S. legally - if not via Trump, then by his successor. Why is your side so fixated on forcing people to become citizens?

 

And maybe you 'don't get' the dream that the 'Dreamers' have! They've got the leverage with this 'dreamer' paradigm to become full-fledged citizens of this country. They would have all the rights and privileges of all the rest of us -- even though they were brought in here by a bunch of scheming, conniving illegal aliens who had no regard for our laws whatsoever!

Do you imagine for one moment that any of these 'dreamers' want to go back to genuine, authentic 'shithole' countries like Honduras, Guatemala, many parts of Mexico, etc. that their parents came from?! Do you think that all they want is a 'green card' so that they can work here legally, and then be forced to leave? Oh, HELL, no! They're in the Land of Milk and Honey! They can become citizens and suck on their own private welfare-straws just like people who were born here or were naturalized here legally. Or they can work, become successful, and be happy people. That is all part of the right and privilege of being an American citizen -- a right and privilege that neither 'dreamers' nor their rotten, stinking illegal alien parents deserve!

But, the smart thing now is to give amnesty to them and their stinking, criminal parents, or else we on the Right will probably lose the House or the Senate in November... or both! If we suffer those defeats, I can promise you that with Democrats sweeping back into power, they'll kiss these dreamers' asses until they DRIP, and so we'll be stuck with the reality of them achieving 'amnesty' anyway!

 

I've got a book for you, Jake... "The Pueblo Revolt", by Robert Silverberg. It's only a couple of hundred pages long... I know you can do it. You might be interested to discover how brutally effective the Spanish were at uprooting and destroying nearly everything in the Native Indian way of life, even after they had endured setbacks..

I'm also sure you can provide credible information stating that Trump has signed an order for a wall that does not span the entire border with Mexico (which you said earlier when you called me a liar). I'm waiting....

 

The President has not "signed" any order. He as stated publicly and informed Congress what he wants.

"There is already roughly 700 miles of fence along the border - the remainder is either open, nearly impossible to actually build on or impassable. Mr Trump said in 2015:
Mr Trump has said his wall will cover 1,000 miles, with natural obstacles protecting the rest of the border.
How much will it cost?
Estimates vary hugely. In February last year, Mr Trump told MSNBChe could finish the wall for $8 billion. “Of the 2,000, we don’t need 2,000, we need 1,000 because we have natural barriers … and I’m taking it price per square foot and a price per square, you know, per mile,” he said . "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/mexico-border-wall-donald-trump-planning-much-will-cost-will/

Since 2015 and onward he has repeatedly stated there is no reason to build any barrier where there are natural barriers. The MSM falsely declaring 1 million times he wants to build a wall the entire border was 1 million outright, deliberate lies.

He has otherwise stated this. Put it together and he is stating he will enhance the existing 700 miles and add approximately another 300 miles. (If I remember correctly, the additional length is around 280 miles).

I looked up the Pueblo Revolt and it does not even address my claim, which specifically is that the Comanches and Apaches controlled the SW USA, not Spain, Mexico or the USA until the advent of the Colt 45 and Springfield trapdoor rifle. Having a fort in a region does not equate to controlling the region.

Bow-and-arrow was a semi-assault weapon compared to a musket, but could not match the cartridge 6 shooter or the rapid loading, long range for its era Springfield 45-70. With the advent of the Winchester repeating rifle any influence of NAs fully had vanished. I'm fairly familiar with the topic of the conquest of various NA tribes, which is not a generic story for each.

 

Trump has said a lot of things, Jake, and then he's replaced the things he said with other things, sometimes remarkably different, and sometimes remarkably often. I'm not interested in getting in a big pissing match with you, even though you called me a liar, and I really don't appreciate that at all. Instead, I'm sending a link to the Executive Order which President Trump signed, after taking office as president, in 2017: http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/do...ecutive-order-on-border-and-immigration/2300/

Note Section 2, "Policy", subparagraph (a), which reads exactly this: Secure the southern border of the United States through the immediate construction of a physical wall on the southern border, monitored and supported by adequate personnel so as to prevent illegal immigration....

Continue on to Section 3, "Definitions", subparagraph (b), which reads exactly this: "Southern Border" shall mean the contiguous land border between the United States and Mexico, including all points of entry.

Now, perhaps the real, defining definition found in the same section, subparagraph (e): "Wall" shall mean a contiguous, physical wall or other similarly secure, contiguous, and impassible physical barrier.

And it is signed, Donald J. Trump

Now, you can quibble about what you think that this actually means if you want. I am more interested in the text of the Executive Order. Frankly, as I've said many times, I would prefer armed reconnaissance drones, plus strips of anti-personnel land mines in strategic locations. Jake, I KNOW that country. I've lived there... I've been jeeping through many miles of that country many times. It would be utter madness to build, maintain, and staff a 'wall' in 90% of that country. And yet, go back to the actual Executive Order that President Trump authorized and signed... what does it say? Hey, now if he decides that he wants to forget about the 'wall' that is described in his Executive Order, and use drones and land mines instead, that's just FINE AND DANDY with me! But as it stands, he's ordered a WALL, Jake, and you'd have to be Bill Clinton to find any 'wiggle-room' in that....

Lastly, with little in their inventory but swords, cross-bows, arquebuses, and halberds, the Spanish of the 16th-century subdued the only Native Indian populations that had risen even to the hunter-gatherer level of civilization. But, yes, you are right, with vastly superior weapons and millions more people, many years later, citizens of the United States conquered all of them, including the relatively 'uncivilized' Indians as well.

 

>>>MOD EDIT Flamebait Removed<<<

I am not now, never have been, nor ever will be in favor of forced citizenship, making citizens out of Dreamers, or MORE IMPORTANTLY, forcing people to become citizens in order to be here. At the same time, even if it took a constitutional amendment, we should not extend to non-citizens any benefits / privileges / immunities offered to citizens.

 

Well, OK... we're on the same page, I suppose, more or less. One thing I have observed -- not ONE 'dreamer' has said, "Send me back to the land of my birth!" On the contrary, every 'dreamer' I've seen is raising hell that they should be given U. S. citizenship -- right freaking NOW! Oh, and they demand it for their illegal alien parents, too, and as many more of their sort that they can stuff in here. But, maybe I somehow got that wrong....

 

Citizenship is a privilege not a Right. If a Dreamer has a job, can pay their own bills, etc. then I'd be okay with it. When the government thinks those people ought to be afforded citizenship - or even the privileges / benefits / immunities of citizenship (welfare, the privilege of voting, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc) then we have a major problem.

If they cannot afford themselves, neither can we.

But, the bottom line is, once you make a third of the people here without papers into citizens, the nutty wall idea, draconian immigration measures, etc. are going to be as worthless as tits on a boar hog.

NO competent court would keep the families of Dreamers turned citizens out of the U.S. Once they are citizens, this argument will become moot.

 

Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but I've been to this 'dance' before. I know how it will go. It will start out as some kind of 'deal' that will give limited protections to 'Dreamers', and that will morph into protection for the illegal alien parents, and then it will morph further into amnesty for everybody. And then that will morph further into citizenship for all the illegal aliens -- both "Dreamers" and their parents, and as many more 'family members' as they can stuff in here. That is the REALITY of how these things go.

That, as disgusting and nauseating as it is, is the BEST possible scenario. The worst scenario is that Trump and Schumer have a big square-off over it and it drags out into the November elections. Trump loses what little control he has over both houses of Congress, the socialist-Democrat scum sweeps in, and the 'Dreamers' get everything they want, on a silver platter! They'll gladly vote socialist-Democrat for the rest of their lives!

Confronted with this REALITY, I say, "Go ahead and give these three million illegal sons-of-bitches amnesty now! Get that OFF the table! Then, take the quid-pro-quo money for 'the wall' and, instead of sinking money into a useless, bottomless pit like that, use it for armed aerial reconnaissance drones and anti-personnel devices instead!". But will that happen? Solid ice will be five feet thick in Hell before it does....