Believer in the official version of 9/11 looking for hard proof of a conspiracy

Hello there.

Is it true that you accept the official versions of the various events on 911 despite the lack of evidence? Can you tell me why you do that.. and yet you place much higher demands on the skeptics?

In my view, 911 was an inside job, simply because of the bigger picture. That is.. who would gain from a "spectacular" on US soil. Who would gain from a decade of war and enemies to sell to the US public?

Would a handful of muslim extremists gain from a decade of US invasions and occupations.. which was the inevitable consequence of such an event.. or would those who wish to pursue huge defence spending and a particular foreign policy gain more from the event?

The propaganda that was sold to the US public after 911 .. the constant terror alerts and colour coding warnings... I do not believe that Bush or Cheney or Rumsfeld or Rice or Wolfowitz ever made a speech that did not have terrorism at it's core.. no matter what the subject of the speech. The US public were sold terrorism terrorism terrorism for the entire 8 year term.
It was a concerted brainwashing campaign to convince the US public that they were in danger and that only the Bush admin could protect them.

So 1. The neocons gained from 911. 2. Their response was very revealing. ..pure propaganda and readymade wars.

Now 3. The event itself remains shrouded in confusion with so many discrepancies that it is simply impossible to believe the official story.
A. I have never seen 3 skyscrapers before or after ... collapse so perfectly. Has anyone? Building 7 is utterly bizarre.
B. How did the 19 Muslims with boxcutters ..beat the trillion dollar US defence system. How after such a long time period did a plane breach Pentagon security.. which was on full alert... only to then hit the recently specially reinforced section...conveniently housing the "accounts" department. Why was it not shot down?
C. Why is there no footage of the 19 muslims at the airport before they apparently boarded the planes? Why are none of their names of the flight lists?
D. Is it not amazing that we have not heard any of the black box recordings...we are told that they were destroyed on the day.. and that the passports of the terrorists survived! Oh really?
E. The supposed terrorists made as much noise as possible in the days and months leading up to the attacks. Is that really the behaviour of muslim fundamentalists planning a secretive attack on US soil?
F. Can you explain the Transport chief's assertion that a young man rushed in to the Cheney bunker on a number of occasions... and on the last occasion asked "does the order still stand"?
G. I tell you what.. there are 100 more unanswered questions...
perhaps this will help you understand why the majority of Europeans and a third of Americans believe that 911 is deeply suspicious.

http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

However as I said before... for me.. I simply follow the money and the behaviour of those in charge on 911.

Who gained from 911.

The answer is overwhelmingly obvious.

 

So who gained? What did ANYONE gain that would be worth the death of 3000 Americans and the risk of the lives of everyone involved in the conspiracy?

Sure, it is easy to claim it was an inside job and leave it at that. Some of us demand a little more evidence than the word of yet another probable sock puppet. My apologies if you're not, but we seem to get an awful lot of people coming in here, being rude, being obnoxious, having only a handful of posts the vast majority dealing with 9/11 and then getting banned.

So let's look at the obvious suspects.

George Bush. Hmmm. He is out of power. He hasn't come into some huge amount of cash. What did he gain?

Dick Cheney. He is out of power too. He hasn't come into some huge amount of cash. What did he gain?

Big oil. Well, I've heard people say it was to gain control of the Iraqi oil fields. Hmmm. Iraq has control of the Iraqi oil fields. Gave a lot of the contracts to other countries. Afghanistan pipeline? Still a pipe dream.

The Jews? They may have gained some sympathy for their constant attacks by terrorists, but they're not in a position to pull of an inside job. It would have to be an outside job with one hell of a coverup.

The government taking away our rights? They don't need a 9/11 to do that.

So lets look at your "evidence".

Before 9/11 had you ever seen an airliner used as a flying bomb? Me neither. 9/11 was a day of many firsts. The twin towers collapsed perfectly? What dope were YOU smoking that day? The towers' collapse caused massive damage to every building around it to the point most buildings had to be razed to the ground as a total loss. This is not proof of an inside job. This is an OPINION used to come to a conclusion not backed up by the evidence.

By attacking us in a way we were not prepared for. Again your claim is not evidence, but opinion. This is not proof of an inside job. This is an OPINION used to come to a conclusion not backed up by the evidence.

The Pentagon does not have anti-aircraft missiles. The flight path for Reagan International Airport goes almost directly over the Pentagon. You would have planes falling out of the sky on a regular basis. BTW, the plane did not hit the "accounts" section. That is a myth perpetrated by truthers to try and justify their lunacy. As for the odds of hitting that one side.... it was one in five. Wow! Proof right there of an inside job! Again what you've posted is not evidence, but opinion. This is not proof of an inside job. This is an OPINION used to come to a conclusion not backed up by the evidence.

Oh come on! What did you do, hit every junior truther site on your way here? There is video footage of several of the Muslims entering the airport. There were eyewitnesses who remembered dealing with the likes of Atta. And every name of every hijacker was on the flight lists. They didn't even use aliases. I don't know where you've been getting your information, but you seriously need to find some better sources.

This time you haven't even given us opinion. You've given us outright lies.

And just so you understand just how blatant your lies are, here are copies of the original flight manifests with the names of the terrorists clearly visible

More truther lies. We have the transcript for the black box that survived. Out of respect to the victims, the actual recording was not released to the public. The victims' families were allowed to hear the recordings. As for passports, two survived out of 19. WOW! Here is the transcript for flight 93.

Really? Wow. Now this one REALLY sounds like opinion blown out of proportion. What "noise" did they make? Were they perhaps trying to draw attention away from the fact they WERE Muslim fundamentalists? It is actually allowed under Islamic teachings.

Sure. By any chance have you actually READ the transcript of that testimony? If you had, you would have found out that there was never any talk of a stand down order. The topic of when the SHOOT DOWN order was issued was very much in discussion. But hey. Don't take my word for it. Here is the complete transcript. Truther sites never have it because it always blows such big ugly holes in their bull(*)(*)(*)(*) theories.

Here is the relevant piece:

Well if "questions" a - g are any indication, you should be deeply embarassed by your lack of knowledge on the subject and by just how gullible you've been in buying into the truther lies.

 

This is a much more informative thread:
http://www.politicalforum.com/9-11/223209-prove-flight-93-bunker-buster.html

But you can ignore everything after post #307; the rest is padding.

 

I assume this is a typo?

Are you saying you had ? What do you mean by entire volumes of website that aren't up anymore? Are you saying you had 911 websites at one time?

 

The topic is not Fangbeer's beliefs. Try to stay on topic; we wouldn't want the moderators to do more work than they have to.

 

They're not the the only evidence, they're non existent to begin with. PHOTOGRAPHS. Somebody had to snap a pic of this historic event being dug up. Just ONE good one...and I'll recede. Or admit there isn't one.
You all are spectacular dancers, I must admit. I'm using this thread as a teaching tool on how to avoid answering a simple question. Dance on...Thanks.

 

While I agree that the Bush admin exploited the attacks to the best of their ability I do not agree that bushs post attack policies constitute proof the gov't was involved. While I am quite certain that the govt has been dishonest about a number of events surrounding 9/11 I do not believe the gov't was an active participant in the attacks or allowed them to knowlingly occur. I would be happy to provide some of the publications that I found credible and informative.

 

My God man....look no further than Dick Cheney and the transportation secretary's testimony to Congress concerning the Dick's actions on 9/11. Norman Minetta. Google it. What was that all about? A picnic? GEEZUS.

 

I love it when truthers step in their own foul (*)(*)(*)(*) in their posts because one of their fellow truthers just got their asses handed to them on the same subject.

Hey Fraud. Have you READ Mineta's testimony? I have. Clearly you haven't. It was all about the shoot down order. Yes, that's right. Truthers love to take a couple sentences out of context and then pretend they actually know what is going on. Reality is they're lying their asses off and being completely dishonest.

Here is the complete transcript

So everyone is CLEARLY talking about shoot down orders, not stand down orders as truthers lie about. Anyone else need a clear demonstration of truther dishonesty?

 

In my opinion...two things really stand out...

1. Clinton and Bush both knew about a possible attack. Neither of them took it seriously and not enough was done to prevent it.

2. Operation Northwoods

 

They both knew about a possible attack. I don't think anyone can deny that. They didn't know about the type of attack, so how do you prevent what you don't know is coming, especially when it is a type of attack nobody has really done before and on a scale never done before?

This one always puzzles me. Why is it so surprising to people that people can dream up scenarios like those described in Operation Northwoods, especially when they are tasked with dreaming up scenarios that would legitimize war with Cuba? Dreaming up scenarios is completely different from carrying out such scenarios, though.

The people who thought up Operation Northwoods were part of the government of the 1960s, forty YEARS before the events of 9/11. How does the actions of people forty years prior lead to suspicions of people forty years later? The only similarity is that the "suspects" are part of the government / military.

Don't get me wrong. I know our government / military has blood on their hands and has done (and likely continues to do) bad things. I also am quite confident that our government has secrets we will probably never know and that would lead to the arrest, conviction, and possible execution of those involved. The secret to keeping secrets, though, is to keep the operation as simple as possible and with as few people as possible.

This is where the beliefs the government was behind 9/11 falls flat on it's face. To pretend our government could pull off an attack and coverup involving thousands to tens of thousands of people without a single leak and with a perfect coverup and investigation is to stretch one's imagination to the breaking point.

How many people do you personally know that would be OK with being directly involved in the horrific execution and / or cover up of over three thousand people? The vast majority of people I know would have a breakdown if they knew they were directly responsible for the death of just one person. It takes a special kind of hardass to be able to live with killing that many people that way, yet truthers want us to believe there were numerous entire departments of the government populated with these people and that not one of these people has ever had a change of heart.

Bottom line is that an attack by 19 hijackers is simple, straight forward, and, because it was done in a way we didn't expect, had a 75% success rate. That same attack perpetrated by the government to frame 19 hijackers, carry out the attacks, wire buildings to explode, plant evidence all over the place, cover up the investigations, and not have a single person come forward or even talk about what happened is beyond the pale when it comes to believability.

 

They could have done a better job at increasing security/enforcements nationwide. They didn't...they pretty much blew it off. The hijackers used their real identities...how is it people on a known terrorist watch list were able to board the planes. That makes no sense.

Don't confuse me for a truther. I know it was a terrorist attack. I do believe however...the government did not take it seriously enough. As for Northwoods, it's not the fact that it had descriptions of things to do for a pre-emptive war....it's the fact that the government that is supposed to protect the people would actually come up with ideas like that...

 

Someone came up with the idea. The idea went over like a lead balloon.

I don't see what the problem is here. Everything worked the way it's supposed to, right?

 

You're missing the point. Why did they come up with it in the first place?

 

You're right. They could have done a lot of things. Hindsight is always so nice, but also not very realistic. Imagine if Clinton or Bush implemented the no fly list we have now prior to 9/11. People would be in an UPROAR over this infringement on our rights to freely travel without "big brother" breathing down our necks.

As for the terrorists, they were flying all over the place prior to 9/11, so they knew they would be able to on 9/11. Otherwise they wouldn't have used their real names. It is a shame they were allowed on those flights, but not all of them were known terrorists.

You have to prove to me you're a truther before you get that title. You have not earned it!

We both agree on this point. Especially the un-necessary and bureaucratic walls that were erected between the intelligence agencies that prevented the easy sharing of information that may have uncovered the plot.

And again we are in complete agreement. In a perfect world the government is suppose to be for the people and by the people. Unfortunately our government is made up OF people and people muck things up because of their peopleness. I don't know of any clear cut way of preventing the usual espionage and secretive dealings that are part and parcel of just about any form of national government. The bigger the government, the more likely there are going to be these kinds of things going on.

I think this is another fact truthers lose sight of. They tend to portray the government as one big borg like entity where all government workers at all levels are of one mind and think exactly alike. Anyone who has worked with more than three people at a time can attest to the politics and frictions that build up working with other people.

Thanks for sharing your insights with us, Krypt.

 

I think the point is that big question of "what if". What if it HADN'T gone over like a lead balloon. Operation Northwoods tends to show that the checks and balances in place work and ideas like those put forth in Operation Northwoods were appropriately shot down.

The other point is "holy (*)(*)(*)(*) there are some seriously sick and twisted people out there and some of them work or have worked for our government!" That is a disconcerting thought for just about anyone.

 

I am one-minded... I do not think there is a conspiracy at all whatsoever. But I am also open minded and will entertain valid conspiracy information which I have yet to see.

I have info from 9/11 sites that aren't online anymore- that's all. Five years ago there were a lot more 9/11 sites than there are today.

 

Isn't that why we have checks and balances?

 

Absolutely. And it is good to know in this case it worked. Still, I would rather live in Utopia where checks and balances aren't needed because the government just does what it is suppose to do and nothing more. Funny thing about Utopia. The literal Greek translation is no place. Topos is the Greek word for place and you negate the word with a U in front of it. Sad. I would have like to have lived there.

 

Good. I hate it when people have two or more minds. Makes it hard to figure out which mind you're talking to.....

 

It's simple actually. I do not believe there is a conspiracy however I will listen to people who think there is one.

Does anyone here have any evidence of anything on 9/11?

 

In any conspiracy theory there is always five cards that trump everything else:

1 - How many people would have to know? The chance of a leak grows exponentially with every individual added to the roster. As Benjamin Franklin said: "two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead." With what is at stake today in book, film rights and speaking engagements that magnifies by degrees of magnitude. On the reverse side, how many people would have to be killed to keep the secret?

2 - Does it make sense? For instance, why would the government of the day risk exposure by planting explosives in the trade towers when they could have achieved the same result simply blowing a few airliners out of the sky.

3 - Is it feasible? If flight 93 did not crash, what happened to it? Where are the passengers now? Why would they fake a crash only to have to destroy the airliner and everyone in it somewhere else? How many people over how long a time would be needed to set the charges in two high security towers operational 24/7 x 365 without being detected?

4 - If it is such a massive conspiracy conducted by so many people with so much power how come it can be unraveled so easily, usually by some unemployed community college teacher with an engineering degree? As is the case with the faked moon landing theory it does not stand up.

Finally, most conspiracy theories do not stand up to close scrutiny nor rationality. The faked moon landing theory is the best example. Those who believe it are insisting that all of NASA, all of the United States government and military conspired to fake a moon landing in front of the whole world, with the Soviets and Chinese watching, examining every aspect and it was pulled off by an administration who could not keep a lid on a third rate burglary which brought down 27 people including a sitting president.

 

Knowing there are a lot of paid shills on this site I dont think I can believe a word of anything you posted. watch this video,the proof is in the pudding that explosives brought the towers down.nobody has even been able to debunk this video.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-nT-luFIw"]9/11: Total Proof That Bombs Were Planted In The Buildings! - YouTube[/ame]

also you cant get around bld 7.the OCTA'S "official conspiracy theory apologists" can only sling crap in defeat like the monkeys they are because there is no rational explanation for the collapse of bld 7.there were other buildings in the area MUCH closer to the towers than bld 7 was and was damaged FAR MORE EXTENSIVELY than it was yet those towers all remained standing.never before had a building ever collapsed due to fires until 9/11.None of those buildings that day collapsed except the twin towers and bld 7.the only reason THOSE 3 collapsed but the others remained standing,was the towers and building 7 were all owned by JEW Larry Silverstein,none of the others were.

to STILL believe in the fairy tale of the governments,you got to be an extremely naive person living in denial. to say its all just mere coincidence is the most hysterical logic of the coincidence theorists and cracks me up to no end.Oh and i say Jew because the evidence is overwhelming the israeli mossad and the CIA were behind it all.

also the thing that proves it was an inside job is if they were just mere incompetence like the government claims,then how come nobody lost their jobs or got court martialed and got PROMOTED instead for their incompetence? yeah right. me and you when WE screw up in a major way at our jobs,we dont get promoted,you know that as well as i do.we get fired in a hearbeat.oh and they illegally destroyed and removed evidence at the crime scene as well.yep no government conspiracy and no coverup.

Now if you come back and ADMIT you have been brainwashed-"theres no shame in it,for 3 years they had me brainwashed believing the official version as well." if you admit the obvious,well then you are open minded otherwise again,you were not telling the truth on anything you said in the very beginning.

oh and I highly doubt anybody will get anywhere with you because you dont even know what a conspiracy is.If we were talking about the kennedy assassination and you said you did not think there was a conspiracy,well then THAT would make sense since the official version says only one man did it.except were NOT talking about the kennedy assassination though,we are talking about 9/11 so even if you accept the official version of the governments,there was a conspiracy since you only need two or more people to be involved.

The logic of the OCTA'S kills me evertime.it seems like the majority of the official conspiracy theory apologists dont even know what the word CONSPIRACY means.Now THAT is funny.lol.

 

Let's see. We start off with insult, copy in a mindless video that contains false assumptions based on flimsy evidence, fill the middle with more insults, pepper with racism, season with all upper case words, and punctuate with emoticons.

Yup. That fits the guidelines of a standard truther post.

 

Sounds like a job for Suede.