Christianity and the Old Testament

Thanks.. sometimes I confuse myself.

 

Trying to work out these genealogies confuses anyone.

 

If it were another Jeconiah it would not be listed? OK, any port in a rhetorical storm I guess.

 

In the Bible Paul said to hell with genealogies because people couldn't get their lies straight.

1 Timothy 1:4 (CEB) = "They shouldn’t pay attention to myths and endless genealogies. Their teaching only causes useless guessing games instead of faithfulness to God’s way of doing things."

 

The OT also has a covenant with all mankind, not just Israel. Genesis 9.

 

You know, you're right.. So when did the covenant just become the descendants of Jacob?

 

Isaiah 7 doesn't have anything to do with Jesus in the slightest. The child was supposed to be a sign for Ahaz -- God would call the Assyrians to help Ahaz defeat his foes and the foes would be defeated before the child grew out of infancy. That's why Christians (at least literalists) typically only read chapter 14 and completely ignore the rest of the chapter.

Micah 5 could literally be interpreted to apply to any descendant of David. Zechariah 9 could have been "fulfilled" by anyone, and the NT writers end up coming up with some humorous contradictions to force Jesus's "fulfillment" of it -- Matthew gets confused and thinks that Zechariah 9 is talking about two animals, a colt and a donkey, and has Jesus straddle both while Mark and Luke avoid that absurdity and just have him ride in on one animal.

Jesus repeating David's lamentations in Psalm 22 is hardly a prophecy.

Taking David's lamentations in Psalm 41 out of context and shoehorning them into Jesus's story is, likewise, hardly a prophecy.

 

Though many don’t see it, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the OT, law and prophets to be specific. And He said as much. Hence the Lord God’s (Creator and Judge) promise to Adam, Enoch, Noah Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so on and so forth, in fulfilled in Christ Jesus.

The OT and the NT is a documentation of the relationship between God (The Creator and Judge) and His People. Not all people, His people.

 

So where Isaiah 7 speaks of a child born of a virgin who will be called Immanuel that is not a foreshadowing of the Christ?

That whole fortelling of Bethlehem Ephrathah in Judah is just coincidental? Especially the part about a ruler in Israel coming from among these groups?

That whole section in Zechariah about the Messian riding into Jerusalem on a young donkey and being hailed as king surely couldn't be a fortelling of Christ, right?

Psalm 22 speaks thusly "For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet—I can count all my bones—they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots."

Psalm 41 speaks of a close friend with whom the writer trusted and ate bread has lifted his heel again him. Hard to miss but you seem intent so to do.

I have to completely disagree with your commentary.

You seem intent to come up with any reason to deny the faith of men based on hiding your face from the obvious.

 

There is a saying in the church.....The Old Testament is about Jesus concealed. The New Testament is about Jesus revealed. Everything in the OT are types and shadows of Jesus. The ark is a picture of Jesus. He's mentioned right after the fall when God says he will provide a redeemer.

 

To whom do you suppose God was speaking in Genesis 9:12-17?

 

According to the Bible, the covenant was literally with all of humanity.

 

You mentioned Genesis 9. Verses 12-17 are likely the ones to which you are referring. What life do you suppose was on Earth after the flood? Contextually God is speaking to His people alone.

 

Not to anyone who actually bothers to read the whole chapter, no.

Any descendant of David would have been "out of [Bethlehem Ephrathat]."

Anyone with a donkey and within riding distance of Jerusalem could have "fulfilled" that prophecy . . . and yet the gospel writers still managed to mess it up. In an attempt to shoehorn Jesus in, Matthew even has him straddle two beasts, apparently unaware of the fact that Zechariah was just talking about one animal, hence his contradiction with Mark and Luke.

Yes, and the gospel writers decided to pretend that was a Messianic prophecy and inserted details in their stories to try to make Jesus satisfy it, with modern Christians sometimes even deliberately mistranslating "kaari" (Hebrew for "like a lion") as "pierced" in order to force their interpretation.

It also says that the sufferer is begging for forgiveness for sinning against God . . . funny, I thought Christians believed Jesus is sinless.

See the above.

And you seem intent to echo the answers you've found on apologetics sites and refuse to read any of these verses in context.

 

Contextually, God is speaking to "each human being" (verse 4), the descendants of Noah (verse 9, that would be literally everyone in existence, by the way) and "every living creature on earth" (verse 10).

 

You seem to be claiming that any foreshadowing means the speaker is himself the Christ and miss the actual point of the foretelling of what was to come.

 

You seem to think there is something special about cherry-picking any verse you like out of the OT, taking it completely out of context, and calling it foreshadowing or prophecy. Literally anyone could meet the qualifications for being the "messiah" under such slipshod standards. Not even a little out of context either. You can apparently still apply the verse to "foreshadowing" Jesus even if the rest of the chapter completely contradicts that attempt.

 

As usual the God character changed his mind and says in Zephaniah that he's going to kill everything, even sand fleas.

 

Those are widely accepted foreshadowing comments in the OT. You certainly can choose to deny the similitude.

 

Widely accepted by Christian fundamentalists, not those who take the time to read the verses in context.

I certainly can, just as fundamentalists choose to invent such "similitude" whole-cloth. Isaiah 7 says several things about the child that disqualify Jesus from being the subject, etc. etc. If a verse that wasn't even supposed to be about the Messiah in the first place can be taken completely out of context for the sake of "similitude" than literally anyone in existence can claim that the Bible predicted their coming in the same manner. Psalm 22:16 says "Dogs surround me." Wait a minute, I was surrounded by dogs once. You know, a snake struck my heel once too. I must be the Messiah! At least according to the loose standards of "prophecy" applied to Jesus. Sure, I missed completing some of what the Bible says about the Messiah, but I'll fulfill all of that in my second coming.

 

There are thousands of religions and different gods down through human history. No surprise that Christianity should have a couple of different Gods over time. Religions evolve.

 

I would wager that I have read the OT and NT in total more that most, good sir.

I choose my words carefully. Foretelling and similitude are not used interchangeably with prophecy. Your arguments lack the foundation of desire for a discussion.

 

As have I, hence why I pointed out the flaws in trying to use some of these verses to apply to Jesus.

And I pointed out the flaw in that reasoning. Taking these verses out of context and cherry-picking "foretellings" and "similitudes" render the entire thing useless. They could "foretell" literally anyone.

Pot, kettle.

 

Christian missionaries consider Isaiah 53 an “atom bomb” because they claim it is such an obvious prophecy of Jesus of Nazareth. Of course, anyone who reads the Book of Isaiah in totality will soon realize that the “suffering servant” is actually a reference to Israel. Nevertheless, assuming the “suffering servant” is a reference to the promised Messiah, Christians have to explain:
וַיהוָ֞ה חָפֵ֤ץ דַּכְּאֹו֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֤ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשֹׁ֔ו יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהוָ֖ה בְּיָדֹ֥ו יִצְלָֽח
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. (Isaiah 53:10)
“Although missionaries may claim that the ‘offspring’ refers to spiritual descendants, this is based on a distortion and mistranslation. In this verse, the Hebrew word for ‘offspring’ (zera - זֶרַ&#1506 always refers to physical descendants (see Genesis 12:7, 15:2-4, 15:13, 46:6; Exodus 28:43). A different word, banim (בני&#1501, generally translated as ‘sons’ is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1).”
Source: http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

So if Christians want to argue that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy concerning Jesus of Nazareth, they will have to confess that Jesus had biological offspring.

 

Jesus was sinless, a perfect sacrifice. However, the bible says he became sin on the cross. The bible says he bore our sins. The bible says he took the punishment for our sins.