Curious...why is it "pro-lifers" (generally) have to lie so much?

You pro-aborts think we that value life should tote not only our loads but yours and others as well. Your lazy and you position is immoral. You have the "point your finger" syndrome. You point your finger at others to shift blame.
And who said I am pro-war?
Who said I approved of anything?

You know whats funny. You libs...wanted Obama in to end the war back in 2008. You blamed Bush...for everything, calling him Hitler...your war protesters were all over the place calling for Bushes death. So you vote for President Osama...I mean Obama...thinking and taking him for his word that he would immediately end that war you all hated. LMAO

Now listen to this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VlXfs1K04g

Now you can take this to the bank....Obama said.

So how long did it take him? WAs it the first thing he did? LMAO

So what does he do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk2TXhzEX1g

He was and still is a liar. He sends more and then promises and end is coming. Then that end does not come. Then he sends more....and it still didnt end until when? Less than a year before he had to run for office. Slick timing. But where did all you haters go...the three years he did nothing but add more body bags to the count? Hypocrits...all of ya.

And he was against gay marriage too. Well until campaign season...when he needed votes badly and switched positions.

So don't even point your finger at me skippy. I was against the war.

Oh and you can take that to the bank.

 

what does it matter to you anyway .. you had your get out of jail free card and now want to stop others having that same choice .. hypocrite

 

I don't care if one thinks its innocent or not. It is still taking a life. Abortion is taking human life that has not given consent.

You are not pro-life...you want the killing to continue.

- - - Updated - - -

This is why you can't debate this topic. You have never had an abortion and you don't know what is involved. As hard as you try...you can't do it. You think its a get out of jail free card....it was a life full of misery...but you don't see this. Your so rabidly pro-abortion...all you can see are the dead bodies piling up....and for you that should be celebration enough.

 

Funny thing is I am not even left wing as you call it, my political views are very much right wing, I'm a paid up member of the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP), one of the reason I support the womans right to choose, I don't believe in the state/government enforcing their will onto others . .which is what most, if not all, pro-lifers want, so to me they are the left wing ones.
You call pro-choice people glorified children and yet they are far more adult when it comes to abortion, adult enough to know that a zygote is not an independent sentient person, adult to know that the pro-life campaign is thinly veiled religious dogma laced with lies and propaganda, adult enough to know that being pro-choice isn't about being pro-death, adult enough to know that the majority of pro-lifers are hypocrites who only care about the fetus until it born and then its "not their problem" .. no, I'd say the glorified children are most certainly pro-lifers.

 

You are so rabidly pro-abortion you don't even want to know what science says. Science states that a new human life starts at conception.

Let me ask you this....are you also pro-late term abortion? This is a trick question.

 

Please show me where I have ever said that human life doesn't start at conception, you can't so not only are you a hypocrite you are a liar as well.

No trick question at all .. I've already stated my position on this numerous times, my position follows what the medical and legal professions state, that abortion is legal up to the accepted time of viability (24 weeks) after that it is legal only for medical reasons. I firmly believe this is the best compromise on the situation .. so now you can come back at me and say something like 'but if its the womans choice she should be able to abort any time up to birth .. so you must be a hypocrite blah blah blah' .. the fact that you cannot show any meaningful evidence that a woman would have an elective abortion after 24 weeks speaks volumes on the fact that they probably never happen.

You also say that it is wrong in gods eyes, yet, again, you can show nothing in the bible that states anything about abortion.
It has also been put to you on numerous occasions that the only proven way to reduce abortions is to improve sex education and access to contraception, but this means nothing to you as it might mean a few more cents in tax.
You have also failed on numerous occasions to actually say how you would enforce a no abortion law, which to me says you haven't really thought the situation through very well, you have just jumped onto the bandwagon without asking where that wagon is going. It doesn't matter to you that the only people you will effect are the poor who will not be able to travel to other countries in order to get an abortion, it doesn't matter to you that an already overburdened care system would have to cope with around 114,000 extra children every year .. nor can you see the hypocrisy of your position, having used the abortion laws to your own advantage (regardless of how you feel about it now) but now want to force others not to have the same choice you did.

So in essence I am entirely comfortable with my position on abortion regardless of what you decide to call me, as those are just words and opinions formed in your own fractured mind.

 

So is executing someone .. its still taking a human life that has not given consent and as you say

Well as a male I can't ever have an abortion, but why should that stop me having an opinion, your position is based on emotional overtones .. your emotional overtones, why do you assume that all woman should feel the same way as you after an abortion and if they don't what gives you the right to belittle them . this is the position of a rabid zealot.
Whether you life has been a misery or not is irrelevant, at the time you took advantage of the law that allowed you to choose to have an abortion, obviously at the time it was the right thing for you, just because you regret it doesn't give you the right to force others not to have that choice .. this is a hypocritical position.
Given that the vast majority of abortions occur before there is a "body" the chance of seeing them "piling" up is remote to say the least . .more hyperbole from one of our resident hypocrites.

 

They why are you afraid some man is going to tell you what to do with your body? Maybe it's a bit of androphobia too. Being outraged at the fact someone is killing your offspring is not 'pouting' but then I guess feminists don't take human life all that seriously.

 

and neither do pro-lifers once it post birth

 

The UK's right wing is to the left of the American left wing. You are left wing.

 

So we measure everyone by American standards? What countries are more right wing than the US?

 

In your opinion .. which means little without facts.

 

Taking the risk is not in any way agreeing to carry to term and give birth.

 

You aren't really addressing the main issues over here, just making personal attacks on pro-lifer's beliefs.

And, yes, there is much medical evidence against abortions.

Let's keep religion out of this discussion, since America is not a theocracy at all, and if you use non-spiritual arguements that don't revolve around Jesus and/or God, my arguement seems a bit more relatable to yous peoples that are over here.

They put anathesia on fetal surgery.

Check out fetal development. I can understand why people would be pro choice about abortions in the first few weeks/the first month or so or the first two months, before the fetus gets the feelings of sensations, before it/he/she can feel pain and our be sentinent or aware of it's surroundings. Not everybody believes in life and the soul beggining at conception, so I will argue from a purely secular view, so that you can sympathize with me a bit more and avoid calling me a fanatic right wing Christian pro life fanatic.

But in late term abortions the fetus is very fully developed, almost just about as fully developed as a newborn baby. For anybody to believe that late term abortions should be legal, then, then I got to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are very ignorant.

At least Obama is willing to allow states to ban late-term abortions, which most states have already done by now.

 

I would suggest you look over some of the other threads and see where pro-lifers have called pro-choice people murderers, nazi's and stated that we all love abortion, that we get "off" on it .. I did not start the personal attacks.

Is there, would you care to point me towards it then please.

I fight fire with fire, when pro-lifers tell me its a sin against god to allow abortions then they bring religion into the debate. I am more than happy to debate abortion purely on legal and scientific grounds.

Which is the majority of pro-choicers position, we accept the 24 week limit on elective abortions, there are few, if any, elective abortions after 24 weeks they are done for medical reasons. I'd also like to point out that there is no evidence to say that a fetus can feel pain prior to the 24 week mark, it doesn't have the required portion of the brain in order to receive pain impulses from the nerves.

See above

As do most of the countries where abortion is legal.

 

First of all, how can I respond to your quotes in seperate segments, to signify that I am responding to some specific point of yours?

I have a lot of more details too state in my response too you!!!

 

Select the "reply" option

highlight the part you want to quote in the original comment, right click mouse and copy it, then paste it into the reply area, highlight it again and select the option that looks like a speech bubble (its the last symbol on the option above the reply area), type your reply below this, then repeat for the other comments.

 

We will have to continue another time as it is 5am where I am and I need to sleep ... take care

 

I do not feel like replying to each specific point in general. It takes far way to much time. I will just click on that reply button!!!

I am also to very happy to debate abortion on purely medical, legal, scientific, and totally secular grounds, too.

Medical reasons can mean almost anything, to quote Sir john mccain!!!

Even only a few month old emybroes/fetuses run away from the vaccum. Just check out that whole entire silent scream video. That's too horrible too even imagine that sort of pain. That's like the worst possibly rated nc-17 movie, but in real life.

Did you even see any ultrasounds at all, dude?

Partial birth abortions are done even in the 8th month, on basically newborn babies. They must feel pain there, having their brains being sucked out by a giant vaccum. That does remind me of nazis or unit 731 torture chamber experiments, just like those silent scream few month old fetuses, but even far more worse. I hate to use profanity over here, but anybody who would even defend that, is an "a**hole". I'm not calling you these names at all, since you seem to sympathize with me on the issue of late term abortions...

 

Ok, I believe when the fetus or mother is in harms way the woman should have a choice that is explained by her OB/Surgeon. I also believe that aborting the fetus prior to any heart beat should be legal if agreed to by both the woman and man that fertilized the egg.

I have no problem with an ultrasound being require prior to the abortion being performed because it "medically" must be performed for the Surgeon to properly perform the procedure. I have worked in health care for over 30 years and have never seen an abortion performed without an ultrasound done prior to.

I think a fetus with a heart beat is "alive" the question is if an arbitrary abortion should be considered "murder" if there is a heart beat and "no" health issues exist for the mother or the fetus that would make aborting necessary..I guess that is a decision best left to the courts.

So basically when it comes down to it, I probably believe abortion should be legal prior to a heart beat or if the pregnancy is life threatening to the mother. I agree that an ultrasound should be performed prior to or on the day of the abortion as it is medically necessary and I know of no surgeon that performs an abortion without an ultrasound used to substain. the age of the embryo/fetus, location within the uterus and possible complications and then performed again just prior to the abortion. Really question why a law is needed for something always done. Plus few women aren't going to want to view the ultrasound.

 

I have no problem with having an ultrasound before surgery but the wackos think the woman should be FORCED to watch it and that is just wrong.

 

Because of ROE Vs. Wade the president cannot illegalize abortion, especially the early and the middle term abortions, nation-wide.

Having pregnant women watch their ultrasound saves thousands of fetuses/babies, while still not defying Roe Vs. Wade, at that very same time. Ahh, the awesomeness of loopholes!!!:

You just want abortion clinics to make more money, I presume over here???

ALL late term abortions should be illegalized, and at the very least, ultrasounds should definitley be required for those.

I personally try not to hate anybody at all or to use hateful speech/language (profanity/name calling is used to direct hatred towards somebody), but people who supports late term abortions are either stupid, callous, or just plain malevolent.

 

You do know that the silent scream video has been thoroughly discredited by numerous medical professionals, here are just a few examples of the fraudulent nature of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silent_Scream
http://www.violence.de/prescott/humanist/abortion.html

Here are a few of the claims and the scientific facts that disprove them

Claim: The 12-week fetus experiences pain.
Facts: At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived.

Claim: The 12-week fetus makes purposeful movements (e.g., agitated movement in an attempt to avoid suction cannula).
Facts: At this stage of pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive in nature rather than purposeful, since the latter requires cognition, which is the ability to perceive and know. For cognition to occur, the cortex (gray matter covering the brain) must be present, as well as myelinization (covering sheath) of the spinal cord and attached nerves, which is not the case.

Claim: Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.
Facts: The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.

Claim: The fetus emits "The Silent Scream."
Facts: A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26-27 weeks' gestation (24-25 weeks' fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

Claim: A fetus is indistinguishable from any of the rest of us.
Facts: A fetus of 12 weeks cannot in any way be compared to a fully formed functioning person. At this stage only rudiments of the organ systems are present. The fetus is unable to sustain life outside the woman's womb, it is incapable of conscious thought; it is incapable of essential breathing. It is instead an in utero fetus with the potential of becoming a child.

Claim: Fetal head at 12 weeks requires the use of "crushing instruments" for extraction.
Facts: At 12 weeks' gestation (10 weeks' fetal age) and even 1-2 weeks beyond, instrumentation other than a suction cannula is not required when abortion is properly performed. Cannulas for aspiration abortion come in varying sizes

I have two sons and have seen their ultrasounds, I was also present at their births .. however they were both wanted.

I do not disagree with you .. however there is no proof that late-term abortions are performed for anything other than medical reasons ie danger to the mothers life, in almost every country where abortion is legal, elective late term abortions are illegal.

 

What is the latest term that abortions are preformed in?

Anybody who supports late term abortions is a heartless cold, and possibly even a sadistic twisted individual, as evil as Hitler or Stalin or somebody such as that.
OK,

OK, even if the fetus/the baby does not feel any pain at all whatsoever at 12 weeks old, that doesn't automatically prove that all pro-lifers are wrong.

You seem to be neither pro-abortion/pro choice, nor pro life, but rather somewhere in the middle with your opinion. I love to debate with some very reasonable and non ad hominem people. Ad hominem arguements are not all that so wrong, per se, but ad honinem arguements should come second in a discussion/a debate.

Suppose the fetus/the baby did feel some pain. Either way, regardless of those details, what exactly does that suction cannula even do in the first place to it/him/her???

 

Abortions can be performed at any time during the pregnancy .. however elective abortions are only allowed prior to the third trimester, after that they are only performed for medical reasons.

Even if the life of the mother is in jeopardy or the fetus has a condition which makes it incompatible with life.

Never said it did, but it does disprove Silent Scream and the continued assertion of pro-lifers that pain is felt.

I am more pro-choice than anything else, but I do believe that the scientific evidence points to a time when abortion should only be done for medical reasons .. for some reason I am called a hypocrite for this.

We can all suppose a lot of things, however that doesn't make it reality. I prefer to deal in the real world,