Curious...why is it "pro-lifers" (generally) have to lie so much?

Haven't we been over this already .. what is a moral absolute? there are none, morals are not inherited, they are not programmed into us at a genetic level, they are the product of where we are born and raised. Morals are 100% a social construct and each of us have our very own set, your morals may very well agree with another 99% of the time . .however that 1% will create conflict between you.
Are your morals better than another persons, you may think so but that is just pride .. morals should not be allowed within 10 miles of the law making process.

Most people don't and the law doesn't allow it (except for medical reasons), there is no proof that a fetus can feel pain before 24 weeks, and there are some scientist who would say before 30 weeks and even then chemicals such as adenosine, pregnanolone, and prostaglandin-D2 are present .. which basically means the fetus is sedated.

I'm glad to see you admit pro-lifers lie

Why would you need to "lie" in order to do this, if your case is correct and supported by the majority there would be no need to "lie". If you need to "lie" in order to get your own way you are defrauding the system.

Even in cases where the woman would die

They are already trying to do that.

 

For time reasons, I don't feel like quoting you in detail about what you had said.

I am not shocked our angered or annoyed whenever somebody states that they support abortions, even late term abortions, if the mother's life is in danger, or if the fetus has a condition that will result in it dying very soon anyways. I can absolutley understand their opinions even then, and I agree with me on those exceptions too, to a certain extent.

Elective late term abortions are legal, because of the loopholes about the life of the mother. As John Mccain had stated, the life/the health of the mother has been twisted around and expanded upon as a loophole to get around that ban, just like how you claim that pro lifers use loopholes.

Prove to me that elective late term abortions, loopholes used or no loopholes used either way, are illegal. Elective late term abortions are not illegal.

Sure, they may be very rare, (there's only about a few hundred/a few thousand of them a year), but that's a few hundred/a few thousand too many. Tragedies can occur on any scale.

Despite the fact that it violates my religious/spiritual beliefs, I am not that filled with anger whenever somebody tells me that they support early term abortions. God creating us aside, if it's nothing more than a pile of cells, and the woman discovers her pregnancy in the earliest terms of it, even though I disagree with abortion even then, at least that's understandable, a person being pro-choice for early term abortions. It's understable, in my opinion.

From a purely secular standpoint, in early term abortions, the fetus has no sentinence nor a brain just yet.
As I had promised to argue about abortion from a purely legal, medical, and scientific standpoint, in order to argue onto your level, in purely secular terms. I always argue against abortion from purely secular terms, in order to help myself win the arguement and to avoid being called a religious freak, which really doesn't help me win my arugement at all.

And, yes, I am happy that they are trying to do that. What you fail to see is that, if you were a pro lifer, you would do the same lying that they are doing. That's called only being consistent with your beliefs. Which everybody should be.

I feel as if most pro choicers are just in denail.

And, thankfully, thanks to the much hated George W. Bush, partial birth abortions are now totally illegal. Which I support george w. bush's heroic decisions by doing that.

And which even most pro choice people would support. Your mileage may vary. Pro choice doesn't always mean supporting abortion in all instances, and not all pro lifers are against abortion in all instances, too.

However, partial birth abortions would never be nessecary to save the life/the health of the mother. That's just a loophole. And, during, partial birth abortions, the baby does feel pain.

You are pro choice. I am not paticurarly offended by your beliefs because, despite our disagreements, you do not seem to be like those radical, extreme, pro abortion fanatics, who are very callous and evil and malevolent.

You do seem a bit misguided, and a bit misinformed, but you are not like those extremist evil radial pro abortion people. Which I can respect you for that.

Obama had never said that he supported a federal ban on partial birth abortions.

He is a lying hypocrite, as evidenced by his actions. And please don't accuse me of being a racist for not liking Obama's policies. I am judging Obama purely based on the content of his character/his deeds/his words/his actions, not the color of his skin.

He is a lying hypocrite for being so emotionless and heartless towards thousands newborn babies that can feel pain, being horribly tortured like in a nazi concentration camp.

Obama is just like Hitler in that regard. And don't give me this nonsense about Obama caring about our healthcare and about fixing the economy and about helping poor people. Hitler did that stuff too.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1016766/posts

http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/1997/04/partial_birth.html

That last article is very paticularly disturbing. Partial birth abortion is nothing more than fanatical, radical, and extremist, callous, and malevolent pro abortion fanatics finding loopholes into the system too.

 

Then you are very much a rarity in the pro-life band

They are not legal, there are no loop-holes and if elective late term abortions are being performed (which I do have doubts about) the doctor doing them is breaking the law and if caught would be prosecuted.

These are broadly the findings that restrict late -term abortions

even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions “necessary to preserve the life or health” of the
woman;
“health” in this context includes physical and mental health;
only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define
what constitutes “health” and when a fetus is viable;
states may not require additional physicians to confirm the attending physician’s judgment that the woman’s
life or health is at risk in cases of medical emergency

I've highlighted the most important one for this issue .. no woman can make an elective decision to abort her fetus after the point of viability, that decision rests entirely on the doctor . it is never an elective decision by the woman, she may request one but the decision is the doctors based on his/her evaluation of the circumstances.

Thank you for this, it is good to see that someone from the pro-life side actually thinks.

 

It was a sin on my part. I am the one who killed my child, not God. Well If you knew Christian scriptures you would know the answer to this question. If you have broken one sin you have broken them all. Paul was a sinner...a murderer of Christians and God forgave him and selected him to carry out his plan.

The fact is...YOU DON'T, NO ONE HAS TO TALK TO ME AT ALL. BUT YOU DO...WHY? YOU LIKE TO BASH, PART OF THE POSITION YOU HOLD. I admitted what I did for a reason, one you can't possibly because of your worldview comprehend. But no, you can put me on ignore do what you want. I think you would miss using me as a punching bag though. LOL

 

The Amazing Sam's Ego said,

"I am not shocked our angered or annoyed whenever somebody states that they support abortions, even late term abortions, if the mother's life is in danger, or if the fetus has a condition that will result in it dying very soon anyways. I can absolutley understand their opinions even then, and I agree with me on those exceptions too, to a certain extent."

Then you are pro-abortion in a way, right? You want abortion legal so parents can kill their imperfect children. A woman's life might have a point...but not if a child has a condition. If its going to die...then what is wrong with letting it die naturally?

They are done every day all over the country...you just don't hear about them. Today if you want an abortion at any time....there will be someone who will do it.

As a child of God I would think it would do the opposite and sadden you. Because I don't know what religion you are...but in the Christian scriptures...God does not condone abortion. You are pro-abortion, you are going against scripture and Gods commands for His children. You say one thing and say the opposite.
Abortion is not understandable....not to someone who values life, someone who believes in God...or knows what science says.

Not so science says.....at conception, that in the womb is a human being.

Why? You do not hold to a religious view of life. LOL You are pro-abortion...you see nothing wrong with killing in early terms...and if the child is handicapped in the womb.

I don't see from what you said here...you are a pro-lifer. That is what you fail to see. You are not consistent.

You are in denial.

Oh wait.....you said you thought killing a handicapped child in the womb in later terms was ok. You said that early term abortion was ok. How quick you forget. Later term abortions go on every day.

Not so...I think you are pro-abortion from what you said. You can't be pro-life and pro-abortion.

I can't believe you just said this. How the hell do you know they can't feel pain. And if you were against killing them...pain should not matter abortion should be legal. Your all over the place.

I can't respect your opinion...your pro-abortion.

Obama voted for infanticide...the most radically pro-abort president we have ever had.

 

I actually feel very sorry for you as you can't seem to get rid of your guilt in any other way that to project it onto others .. I believe you are pretty emotionally unstable, with no reasoning within you.
I have never put anyone on ignore, nor will I . however your comments are becoming more and more erratic, when you can post something that makes some sense and doesn't just shout at people, then maybe people will respond to you in a proper way .. respect is a two way street.

 

What does Titus 3:2 say....and do you live by that?

- - - Updated - - -

Given your choice, would you like to see it prosecuted as murder and the appropriate penalty delivered for it by the criminal justice system?

 

I do believe in compromise to prove my point, regardless of how evil the opposite opinion is. You got to lower yourselves to the opposite side's opinion in order to lure them into agreeing with you, or, rather, to put them on a level that they don't (even if it's just for the sake of arguement) agree with you 100%. It helps you prove your point better and faster. For example, if I ever got into a debate with a pro-choice family member, who would usually mock me for brining up the Bible and life beggining at conception, I would argue in purely scientific, medical, and legal evidence/terminology, not bringing up God or the spiritual world or the soul entering your body at conception. Wouldn't I have at least a better chance of proving to them how horrible some of the abortions are, even without God involved,


Somebody that supports early term abortions.

First of all, I had interperted Fugazi as talking about a fetus that would have miscarried anyway. Certain times, fetuses in the womb cannot survive past birth and they end up in miscarriages. Many fetuses die, not because of abortion, but because of a miscarriage. In those instances, the fetus cannot survive past birth anyways, and he/she will end up in a miscarriage. I never was talking about handicapped children.

And, you said that pain shouldn't matter if it's life. As true as that may be, you got to lower yourself down to their level to argue with some pro-choice people.

Any pro choice person that now supports abortion, or at the least the most horrible kinds of abortion, knowing that the fetus feels pain, is a sicko.

Define "radical pro abortion", and just a politician that is merely "pro choice".

And, yes, partial birth abortions are infanticide, that were legal through some loopholes. The baby's legs are kicking and moving around, and it feels a lot of horrible and excruciating pain, and, hey, even if he/she didn't feel any pain, it's practically a baby that's being almost born already, with it's entire body outside of the mother.

I know some pro choice people in real life. And, I would be horrified if a person had told me that they supported partial birth abortions. I would have a better chance of arguing with them against the most horrible forms of abortions-if I had lowered myself to their secular level and had supported early term abortions on purely scientific, legal, and medical grounds.

 

The problem you have here Sam is that people like Churchmouse can only think radically, there is no middle ground for them you are either pro-life or pro-choice .. there is no compromise.

 

I do believe in compromise for the sake of arguement. Churchmouse doesn't really understand how I argue with other people that disagree with me. My strategies should be used in arguements.

 

What argument ? .. this is the problem. Standing on a soapbox and crying out "baby killers" over and over again is not an argument.

Time and time again I have put the question to lifers. "what is the significant difference between the single cell at conception and any other human cell such that it should be considered a living human and why"

The most common answer ? The circular, premise assuming logical fallacy .. "because its a living human"

It would please me greatly to hear a valid argument. Do you have one ?

 

Right wingers are liars, generally speaking. Few have any honesty to boast of. It was their heroes Margaret Sanger, Rockefeller, Bush, and Gamble who proliferated abortion but they like to blame Democrats for that proliferation. Being liars and murderers are the hallmark of right wingers.

 

I think that all abortion, including cases of rape and incest, should be banned by executive order - at the point in which the fetus is viable.

 

Okay, now, without sarcasm (which would clearly indicate that you have no serious answer).....tell me how IN DETAIL you would enforce a national ban on abortion?

 

Since when is Margaret Sanger a hero of the right wing?

 

Obviously she is not. But why is she so viciously attacked by the right wing? She was a pioneer and advocate for birth control, but she opposed abortion.

 

I have posted links to her association with Republicans Rockefeller, Bush, and Gamble innumerable times on this forum. As it says in the Bible, where your gold is, that's where your heart is as well.

 

They lie and run away because the truth and reality are obviously too hard for them to face......but they expect everyone else to be brave and face reality....they are basically bullies who are always cowards...

 

Well, but a bully can be threatening.....truth is....the "pro-lifers" really are not. Oh, sure we have to be on guard for some place like South Dakota trying an abortion ban or the fact they want to defund Planned Parenthood (see, abortion doesn't matter to them if you're rich or middle class...only if you're poor).....

but they CAN NOT win the "long game". 40 years of Roe points to that....logic and reality proves it.

 

So you agree with abortion in the early stages ?