Education is Less Than Proficient

Discussion in 'Education' started by Opinionated Blogger, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    This thread is for those of you that would like to share why they think our educational system has gone down the crapper, how we can fix it (If we can), and what the effects are for a system that schools many but educates few.
     
  2. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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  3. .daniel

    .daniel New Member

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    1) Higher Quality Teachers

    This means increasing pay and requiring more of our teachers. Many of the most effective education systems in the world require Master's degrees and great proficiency from teachers. In exchange, they are paid on par with the importance of their jobs.

    2) More of These High Quality Teachers

    Teacher-to-student ratio should be closer to 15:1 and not 30:1, as it is in many classrooms. Preferably, have two or three teachers per classroom to help with getting the bright students as far ahead as they can go and keep the slower ones up without dragging anyone forward or back. This is especially important at the grade school level.

    3) Standardized Testing that Doesn't Crash the Education System

    Modify NCLB to check the progress of new initiatives without punishing schools for not having enough funding. I also do not support paying teachers based on performance. This doesn't encourage them to educate. However, we should pay them considerably more and raise standards to attract high quality scientists, engineers, and mathematicians to the education field.
     
  4. xsited1

    xsited1 New Member

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    I don't believe it can be fixed. But if you want to give it a try, more power to you. In the meantime, I'm using the Obama method: send your kids to Private schools.
     
  5. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Do most current public school teachers graduate in the top half of their classes? I ask because I've heard that the majority of public school teachers graduate in the bottom third of their classes. If this is true the best people aren't going into teaching.
     
  6. .daniel

    .daniel New Member

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    I don't know if the stat is true or not, but it seems like it would be right.

    Would you want the cheapest engineer the government could find to build your bridge? Or the doctor willing to accept minimum wage to look at your x-ray? In some cases you find talented people who are generous with their time and teaching for teaching's sake, but there are also a lot of smart people who have a hard time accepting a teaching position when they can make three times that as an engineer or scientist.

    Bump salaries AND qualifications up, and we'll start finding quality, motivated teachers.
     
  7. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Teaching in public schools is an occupation and not a profession. Make it a profession, attract the best people, and give most of the current lot of teachers the heave ho. There are openings for them at McDonalds.
     
  8. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    I would not be surprised if this were true. There are three main reasons bad teachers become teachers instead of pursuing other careers.The first reason a science teacher becomes a teacher for example is because they may not have been smart enough to become a scientist. The second reason is because the pay for teaching does not amount to the pay that other careers do, that require smarter people, therefor teaching generally attracts people that graduated lower in their class. The third reason someone becomes a teacher is because they have always aspired to be a teacher, and it has always been their dream (these types of teachers are generally the best).
     
  9. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    Just wanted to let all of you know...
    A woman named Michelle Rhee offered the teachers union of DC a 6 FIGURE INCOME in exchange for their tenure. The union did not accept the deal. Maybe the key to success in public schools is getting rid of the teachers unions.
     
  10. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Astute analysis. Rep for you.
     
  11. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Michelle Rhee appears in this trailer:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKTfaro96dg"]Waiting for Superman Official Trailer - YouTube[/ame]
     
  12. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Any of these kids could be saved. Racial background is irrelevant. Any of these kids could be saved. But the system can't be reformed.

    Here's where my kids went to school: http://www.pacificcollegiate.com/

    As it stands now, only parents can save their kids.
     
  13. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    Thanks for the trailer. I saw this film, and it was excellent! I suggest it for all who care about their children. I have to correct you on one point though, I think that the system can be reformed. Please listen when I say that right now we need change! I have a blog, that is all about change, and right now if you want to help change the schools, go to my blog and vote. The link is just below!
    BTW: Looks like a great school you sent your kids to, you know what is going on Albert.
     
  14. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    I voted for Education being the biggest problem. Without a reservoir of human capital none of the other problems can be solved.

    You have more faith in reformation than I do. I think the turkey must be consumed by the fire before the phoenix can rise from the flames.
     
  15. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    I think that with enough people on my side (our side) reformation is possible, after all we are "the people that the constitution talks about right?
     
  16. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    The only thing is...where to get more people?
     
  17. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    First, I think the problems with the education system are exaggerated. I'm not saying it doesn't need improvements, but that it is actually better than it was 20 yrs ago. I think the average education level of people has gone up. I also think that the education level of the upper tier of students has gone down.
     
  18. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    Exaggerated? I respect your opinion, but please show me some proof that the quality of education has gone up? And to make matters worse...every student that applies for a job now has 7 billion competitors. Places like China and India with populations well above 1 billion people, also provide people that are the most qualified for jobs, while American students rank 17th in the world for science, and a surprising below average rank of 25th for math. But that's OK, as long as we rank 1st in confidence!
     
  19. hiimjered

    hiimjered New Member Past Donor

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    This is interesting. Tenure protects mediocre performers. Competitive hiring and retention would benefit the best performers, but would put the worst performers at risk, no matter how long they had been failing our kids.

    The original reason for tenure doesn't fit with pre-university teachers. There is no point for them to have tenure.
     
  20. TheHat

    TheHat Well-Known Member

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    Getting an education actually use to mean something of value. Now that everyone, or almost everyone gets one, the value of an education is almost meaningless.

    Same for college.

    People use to go to college and actually come out of it educated. Today, people go in and come out dumber or lack actual education b/c all tests are curved to one degree or another, b/c kids are to stupid to pass it straight up anymore, or are shuffled through the system simply b/c failing them might hurt their self-esteem.

    In order to fix the problem, you would have to turn the whole thing upside down on its head, which nobody is willing to do b/c the unions are to strong and those politicians who can do something locally wont b/c they are to chicken (*)(*)(*)(*) to do so for fear of not getting re-elected.

    So we will limp on until enough parents have enough and pull their kids out or the country crumbles due to the lack of intelligent adults said to be graduating from our most prestigious universities.

    In a nutshell, we are (*)(*)(*)(*)ed.
     
  21. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    First, I said the average quality of education has gone up, not that the absolute quality has gone up. I do think that the education quality for the top students has gone down.


    for info about 1973-1996
    http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/web/98462.asp

    Interesting, but our 4th grade students beat German students in Science (TIMMS, 2007). We are above international average in Science.

    We are also above average in Science at the 8th grade level.

    In 4th grade, our students beat German students in Science. We are similarly above the international average in Math.

    In 8th grade, our students beat the international average in Math.

    Explore the below for data.

    Not sure where you got your data. Please show yours. I'm using the TIMSS data, which is an international test that is taken every few years. 2007 was the last date, but I think one is coming soon (2012).


    http://nces.ed.gov/timss/idetimss/report.aspx
     
  22. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    The reason for them to have tenure is the old spoils system in politics. Without tenure, at one time, whenever a new school superintendent was elected, they would fire teachers and hire their friends. Tenure was a reaction against that.
     
  23. Opinionated Blogger

    Opinionated Blogger New Member

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    Maybe the teachers that the superintendents fired were bad teachers...and their "friends" were good teachers. Now with tenure it is almost impossible to fire any teachers.
     
  24. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Are you saying that American public school students rank higher in math and science than their overseas competitors?
     
  25. hiimjered

    hiimjered New Member Past Donor

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    That is different from the reasoning I had heard previously, although I guess the concept works in any government position.

    The reason I heard before for granting teachers tenure was to allow them to teach based on their empirical understanding, without worrying about teaching based on the preferences and philosophies of the current government leadership.

    With the current situation where curriculum is handed down to teachers from government authority totally negates the reason I had been given. Your reason would fit for any government office.

    Either way, it still has the effect of protecting the people who have been around the longest, regardless of how well or poorly they perform.
     

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